Oh Texas, Not Again

[isladar]

I wasn't trying to trip you up. It was a fairly direct means of pointing out that without context, the 'why' that Gadritan pointed out, nothing makes sense. Those details are context. If you have no idea why Jerusalem is significant, you have no way of understanding why multiple crusades over multiple centuries were fought. And that's just one boring little detail about a cultural and societal context. There are countless others.

[Akucaen]

also, ITT: teaching about religions = pushing religion on people.

It's incredible how logical some people can be and then religion comes up and they become completely irrational in either extreme

You know what, I'll say it. You don't live here, you honestly have no fucking clue what you're on about. In the bible belt we aren't taught religion, we're indoctrinated from day-one that jebus is lord and you'll go to hell forever if you don't believe. Our schools/teachers are constantly fighting to keep the curriculum clean of obvious biases towards any people/religion, but every textbook I grew up with promoted christianity and would not even MENTION other religions (no wait, they mentioned Buddhism & Taoism in Asia studies, my bad; even then it was ridiculed.) People like me are utterly sick of hearing 'christ things' and 'christianity iz teh best' that, and anytime I/we assert our rights to simply not hear that garbage, suddenly their dominant religion is under attack and we're home-grown US terrorists.

Yes you hit a nerve, I'm fucking sick of day-to-day life being flooded with stuff that should be completely personal and stay there. I got a sermon walking into the bank the other day by an old man who thanked god he had a retirement fund (not the company that provided his very luxurious package (no, I won't name the company, but I saw who issued the check.)) I mean literally preaching. He was quoting verses, telling about his god's love, and asking people to pray with him in a place of business with no respect for those of other religions. This kind of shit happens all the time, and it's one of the reasons I damn near froth at the mouth when people try to bring religion into things that have absolutely no need for it. Government does not need religion, nor do schools.

And if you were trolling, fuck you.

[Fhqwghads]

I think we need to back up a bit. First off, from what I understand, this isn't even a relevant discussion since the Texas schools are no longer using the textbooks that instigated the article, unless you want to continue to argue over how deep should the public education system teach about religion before it crosses the line from being education to a church session. If that's the case then we can continue to debate. The real underlying issue isn't so much about religious facts in history, but how much should be taught about various religions. If people are fine with religion in history class, at what point do you say "too far"? What about less popular religions? Do you think they'll stand by while the most dominant ones demand much of the attention? As soon as you open that Pandora's box, you're going to find yourself with lots of very angry zealous people on your hands. This doesn't even take into consideration the teacher's own personal beliefs. Nobody is going to convince me that the majority of teachers who practice one religion or another aren't going to be biased while teaching about belief systems.

In my opinion it's best to steer clear of the whole mess, and teach nothing but purely factual history and not walk into any gray areas, especially when it comes to religion, because it's asking for one thing: trouble.

[Gadritan]

In my opinion it's best to steer clear of the whole mess, and teach nothing but purely factual history and not walk into any gray areas, especially when it comes to religion, because it's asking for one thing: trouble.

You are a prime example of exactly what I was talking bout. I'm seriously at a loss for words at this point.

[Akucaen]

I think we need to back up a bit. First off, from what I understand, this isn't even a relevant discussion since the Texas schools are no longer using the textbooks that instigated the article, unless you want to continue to argue over how deep should the public education system teach about religion before it crosses the line from being education to a church session. If that's the case then we can continue to debate. The real underlying issue isn't so much about religious facts in history, but how much should be taught about various religions. If people are fine with religion in history class, at what point do you say "too far"? What about less popular religions? Do you think they'll stand by while the most dominant ones demand much of the attention? As soon as you open that Pandora's box, you're going to find yourself with lots of very angry zealous people on your hands. This doesn't even take into consideration the teacher's own personal beliefs. Nobody is going to convince me that the majority of teachers who practice one religion or another aren't going to be biased while teaching about belief systems.

In my opinion it's best to steer clear of the whole mess, and teach nothing but purely factual history and not walk into any gray areas, especially when it comes to religion, because it's asking for one thing: trouble.

I can honestly say I would have no problem being taught religion in history if it was presented in a factual manner "x religion contributed a,b,c and the condemnable actions e,f,g, y religion did... (etc)," that is completely fine in my book. Religions do have their place in our history and helping to form the roots of our modern day society; I will never deny that in the slightest. I'll even repeat it for good measure: Religion is important to history and to ignore it is as dangerous as ignoring history itself. That said, if it's presented in a factual manner and unbiased towards one religion as well, that's perfect. That's the history I want. I want to hear about all the scientific advances the Muslims made during the Dark Ages just as much as I want to hear about the atrocities they committed during their version of the crusades trying to invade Europe. I want to hear about how the Dark Ages held humanity back because the church had corrupted itself. (And no, that's not bashing, that's the factual truth!) Positive merits you say? Explain to me how cultures changed when major powers expanded into regions and things like religion clashed. Don't say either one was right or wrong, just explain how they clashed and leave it at that.

If we had textbooks like that I'd rightly shut the fuck up and tuck tail, but they aren't. They weren't 15 years ago and I'd bet money they aren't now.

[isladar]

In my opinion it's best to steer clear of the whole mess, and teach nothing but purely factual history and not walk into any gray areas, especially when it comes to religion, because it's asking for one thing: trouble.

Unfortunately, history involves humans, which means facts aren't the entirety of the matter. Again, you can state that in 1095 Urban II made a speech and suddenly everyone got an itch in their pants to hit up Jerusalem, but as soon as you start asking things like "Why Jerusalem?", "Who was this dude to get people to do this?", or "Why not take the shorter route and punch Muslims in Spain", suddenly you need more than 'purely factual history'. I'm only picking the Crusades example because I'm familiar with it, if this were about the Reformation I'd be sketchier.

Besides, there wasn't exactly C-Span back in the day, so our 'facts' about anything historical are based on biased accounts, and what we can piece together from archaeology.

If you want to avoid grey areas, you're left teaching mathematics, and scie--oh fuck, creationism. Damnit.

[Gadritan]

I'll even repeat it for good measure: Religion is important to history and to ignore it is as dangerous as ignoring history itself.

Ignoring religion IS ignoring history. It's the single most important factor in history.

I want to hear about all the scientific advances the Muslims made during the Dark Ages just as much as I want to hear about the atrocities they committed during their version of the crusades trying to invade Europe.

Terrible analogy. It wouldn't (well, shouldn't) be viewed as scientific advances Muslims made...it should just be scientific advances in various regions of the world. Unless their religion directly caused or hampered these advances of course.

[isladar]

I want to hear about how the Dark Ages held humanity back because the church had corrupted itself. (And no, that's not bashing, that's the factual truth!) Positive merits you say?

I don't want to nerd-derail but the "Dark Ages" weren't really that dark, and the corruption of the Church (which yes, is factual), gave rise to all kinds of amazing secular scholarship. There are some great books about the Carolingian Renaissance (8th century) and the 12th Century Renaissance (12th cent--no shit).

[Akucaen]

Ignoring religion IS ignoring history. It's the single most important factor in history.

Terrible analogy. It wouldn't (well, shouldn't) be viewed as scientific advances Muslims made...it should just be scientific advances in various regions of the world. Unless their religion directly caused or hampered these advances of course.

Well hence my point. ;\ And I more or less meant from "that region." I use Arab/Muslim interchangeably, even though I know that's wrong.

I don't want to nerd-derail but the "Dark Ages" weren't really that dark, and the corruption of the Church (which yes, is factual), gave rise to all kinds of amazing secular scholarship. There are some great books about the Carolingian Renaissance (8th century) and the 12th Century Renaissance (12th cent--no shit).

Culture and the pursuit of science basically shut down until the 12th century. Though the 8th Century Renaissance I honestly do not remember, so I'll go look that up.

[Gadritan]

That's the history I want.

There are some great books about the Carolingian Renaissance (8th century) and the 12th Century Renaissance (12th cent--no shit).

That's another thing that irks the fuck out of me. If that's the history you want, fucking learn it. You have the internet apparently. Believe it or not, but there's more than just school textbooks on the subject. All of this is such a pet peeve of mine it just makes me rage. I've already been raging on it all day after having to duke it out with my fucktard English "professor." Went for the gold and started spitting bible verses back at her today that contradicted what she was saying and proved my point at the same time. Pretty sure she's going to do everything she can to fail me now.

Edit: And yeah, in hindsight that was a really stupid, hotheaded thing to do so early in the semester. It's going to be a g'damn battle from here on out.

Editx2: Went rage mode on Akucaen right thar without needing to. My bad, just one of those days.

[isladar]

Culture and the pursuit of science basically shut down until the 12th century.

Culture? How so? Society shifted after the Roman Empire disintegrated into the Celto-germanic tribes that had been waiting there since, you know, way the fuck back, but culture in no way shut down. I will absolutely grant that the Greco-Roman philosophic studies were dropped (and I'll use that as a blanket term for science, medicine, all that good stuff) in central Europe, but Constantinople didn't drop off the face of the earth, and the flow east of Grecian philosophies continued well into when the expansion of the Muslim empire started pushing back west, when they were reintroduced to Europe.

I get itchy teeth when people think that somehow the world shut off between 500 AD and Leonardo DaVinci (no, you didn't say that, I'm being dramatic :3). There are incredible literary traditions that blossomed during this time, the integration of the stirrup (kiiiinda changed warfare a bit), the rise and collapse of the Frankish empire, blah blah blah.

[Akucaen]

That's another thing that irks the fuck out of me. If that's the history you want, fucking learn it. You have the internet apparently. Believe it or not, but there's more than just school textbooks on the subject. All of this is such a pet peeve of mine it just makes me rage. I've already been raging on it all day after having to duke it out with my fucktard English "professor." Went for the gold and started spitting bible verses back at her today that contradicted what she was saying and proved my point at the same time. Pretty sure she's going to do everything she can to fail me now.

Edit: And yeah, in hindsight that was a really stupid, hotheaded thing to do so early in the semester. It's going to be a g'damn battle from here on out.

The history I want was never taught. We literally skipped hundreds of years at a time or entire cultures. Yes, I do have the internet, but unless I spend a painstaking amount of time cataloging what I missed in my free time (and partially, fuck that-I have better venues to entertain myself), I won't know some things that were skipped or simply not taught (or taught and I forgot.) For example I do remember from my music appreciation class in college that there were several "attempts" to, for lack of a better phrase, "jump start" culture again, but I didn't know there was a full-on temporary revival. That is a "my bad," so I apologize. In a way, though, it sort of helps to prove my point. I wasn't taught this when history wasn't a requirement. The minor facts I learned about (that apparently coincide with the 8th century) was in another class altogether.

[isladar]

The history I want was never taught. We literally skipped hundreds of years at a time or entire cultures. Yes, I do have the internet, but unless I spend a painstaking amount of time cataloging what I missed in my free time (and partially, fuck that-I have better venues to entertain myself), I won't know some things that were skipped or simply not taught (or taught and I forgot.)

Honey, it is worth your time, and not just for having fun discussions on BG. It is entertaining. It's incredible, but you've got to go look for it. At this point in your life, it's your responsibility.

[Akucaen]

Culture? How so? Society shifted after the Roman Empire disintegrated into the Celto-germanic tribes that had been waiting there since, you know, way the fuck back, but culture in no way shut down. I will absolutely grant that the Greco-Roman philosophic studies were dropped (and I'll use that as a blanket term for science, medicine, all that good stuff) in central Europe, but Constantinople didn't drop off the face of the earth, and the flow east of Grecian philosophies continued well into when the expansion of the Muslim empire started pushing back west, when they were reintroduced to Europe.

I get itchy teeth when people think that somehow the world shut off between 500 AD and Leonardo DaVinci (no, you didn't say that, I'm being dramatic :3). There are incredible literary traditions that blossomed during this time, the integration of the stirrup (kiiiinda changed warfare a bit), the rise and collapse of the Frankish empire, blah blah blah.

I'm making vast assumptions that people understand what I mean in my head, again, I apologize. I mean Western Europe in its entirety ("modern" lines, to be even more specific.) I know Constantinople and other cultures (obviously!) lived on, but I'm focusing on just Europe at the moment. I didn't make that clear before, but that was my intention all along (in bringing up the dark ages.)

[Kuya]

I am loving isladar so much right now. It's always fun to see people who know what they're talking about take on know-nothings.

[Akucaen]

Honey, it is worth your time, and not just for having fun discussions on BG. It is entertaining. It's incredible, but you've got to go look for it. At this point in your life, it's your responsibility.

Personally my passions always laid with Russia and its history from birth to modern-day. So that's where I spent my free-time when I looked at history books. :D Perhaps I'll set aside some time later to look some more of this back up though.

[isladar]

I'm making vast assumptions that people understand what I mean in my head, again, I apologize. I mean Western Europe in its entirety ("modern" lines, to be even more specific.) I know Constantinople and other cultures (obviously!) lived on, but I'm focusing on just Europe at the moment. I didn't make that clear before, but that was my intention all along (in bringing up the dark ages.)

Again though, the Roman Empire breaking up as a political entity didn't cause a "collapse" in the way most people mean when they say it. Yes, the Roman system broke down, but papal authority was just gearing up, and in a way, having someone in charge in Rome didn't really shift at all. All those so-called barbarian tribes rushed in a filled the void, and almost immediately you had nascent political authorities that would turn into France and the Holy Roman Empire spring into place.

[Gadritan]

Honey, it is worth your time, and not just for having fun discussions on BG. It is entertaining. It's incredible, but you've got to go look for it. At this point in your life, it's your responsibility.

I really wish more people felt this way. Because of our failed education system, people always joke about history being "a bunch of useless facts." It actually teaches more about life, and how to live it, than any other subject. It's the whole "learn from your mistakes," thing expanded exponentially. Why just learn from your own mistakes when you can learn from the mistakes of millions of others as well?

[isladar]

Personally my passions always laid with Russia and its history from birth to modern-day. So that's where I spent my free-time when I looked at history books. :D Perhaps I'll set aside some time later to look some more of this back up though.

Thomas Asbridge's The First Crusade is a great start-off for Crusade stuff, Richard Barber's The Knight and Chivalry gives a fantastic, no-romance-nonsense look at the sociopolitical evolution of the class from the Roman empire up until past the inclusion of guns, and Miranda Green's The Celtic World is a HUGELY in-depth look in a multi-faceted societal group that started waaaay the fuck back when and stretched from the outer reaches of the British Isles, through Spain, France, central Europe and the Danube Valley, all the way into Asia Minor. I don't seem to have anything on the Germanic tribes on my bookshelf atm, but I do remember a book called Visigoths and Ostrogoths, can't recall who wrote it though.

[Akucaen]

Thomas Asbridge's The First Crusade is a great start-off for Crusade stuff, Richard Barber's The Knight and Chivalry gives a fantastic, no-romance-nonsense look at the sociopolitical evolution of the class from the Roman empire up until past the inclusion of guns, and Miranda Green's The Celtic World is a HUGELY in-depth look in a multi-faceted societal group that started waaaay the fuck back when and stretched from the outer reaches of the British Isles, through Spain, France, central Europe and the Danube Valley, all the way into Asia Minor. I don't seem to have anything on the Germanic tribes on my bookshelf atm, but I do remember a book called Visigoths and Ostrogoths, can't recall who wrote it though.

Amazon-ed. I think I love you.