Random Complaint Thread. No white knighting allowed.

[Tomino]

im not sure im going to miss 5 hours LFP

They already fixed that in FF11 actually.
You just need some side content like Campaign / Besieged / Behest / etc to have multiple players exp on mobs at a lower rate than a good exp party but still much better than solo grind.

I play an MMO to battle together with other players, after all.

[hagun]

The more suggestions I read about improving FFXIV, the more it seems like people want something that resembled FFXI much more than anything else. While its easy to understand why people want familiarity with this mega fail of a game, I think it's rather silly to essentially want what I'd say is just FFXI-2. As unforgiving as FFXI was in its early days, I still consider it one of the greatest games ever made. Sure it was painful and downright brutal, but if you played FFXI when it first came out, you will always have memories of it. It's not a game you will probably ever forget. All the difficulties from the ancient papyrus to Sea and then onwards before the game became as easy as games like WoW, FFXI made a lasting impact. From those difficulties and frustration, there was a sense of accomplishment which is a rarity nowadays when it comes to games. While I desire those days of people working together against brutal odds, I don't want another FFXI-2. FFXI wasn't just a game of purely getting loot, which is the entire basis of all current MMO. FFXI was about triumphing over daunting challenges. That's the spirit I want to see again in FFXIV. FFXIV needs to work on being challenging, not downright annoying.

I know SE is failing here, but I have to applaud them. I have to give them respect because of the simple fact that they are truly trying something different. Yes, the results aren't pleasing, but what other company would be so bold to take such a drastic measure to try in reinvent the wheel? Yes, their implementation fails and is horribly lacking in many instances. I just feel the need to actually give them a pat on the back for being able to try what others wouldn't even dream of...

I just hope they are able to recover from this fumble, but the pessimist in me predicts that FFXIV will forever be fail.

[Meko]

Design wise, I'd like them to finally set their mind of what kind of battle system they're making.
I loved FF11 because it was party centered and thus each class had clear flaws like no defences or CC. From the start, it was meant for people to arrange parties.

WoW and many other recent titles are much more designed on well-around classes, with GW2 pushing the idea even more. This said, endgame content loses a bit of group flavor / synergy and becomes more of a boss battle where 10 people have to move out of AoE or swith places.

Both are fine, but FF14 made it all awkard. It made solo-oriented classes and then forced them to group because it's FF tradition

Very well put. I couldn't agree more.

[Hyan]

Both are fine, but FF14 made it all awkard. It made solo-oriented classes and then forced them to group because it's FF tradition

Mind expanding on this a little? I mean, I think this is easily countered by making more and more encounters happen in a group vs. group environment. In that kind of environment, classes need to be able to stand on their own. You're also not going to solo a group of monsters as they overwhelm you, so it can't be said that this kind of environment would be solo-centric.

It was also mentioned that the pigeon holing caused long LFG times. Right now it's not such a problem (in XI), because let's face it, classes have become less centered and more homogenized. BLU, PUP, SCH, and DNC all enforce this ideal. All DD's can pretty much tank, PLD can deal damage up to some degree, and so on.

[Elrina]

The more suggestions I read about improving FFXIV, the more it seems like people want something that resembled FFXI much more than anything else. While its easy to understand why people want familiarity with this mega fail of a game, I think it's rather silly to essentially want what I'd say is just FFXI-2. As unforgiving as FFXI was in its early days, I still consider it one of the greatest games ever made. Sure it was painful and downright brutal, but if you played FFXI when it first came out, you will always have memories of it. It's not a game you will probably ever forget. All the difficulties from the ancient papyrus to Sea and then onwards before the game became as easy as games like WoW, FFXI made a lasting impact. From those difficulties and frustration, there was a sense of accomplishment which is a rarity nowadays when it comes to games. While I desire those days of people working together against brutal odds, I don't want another FFXI-2. FFXI wasn't just a game of purely getting loot, which is the entire basis of all current MMO. FFXI was about triumphing over daunting challenges. That's the spirit I want to see again in FFXIV. FFXIV needs to work on being challenging, not downright annoying.

I know SE is failing here, but I have to applaud them. I have to give them respect because of the simple fact that they are truly trying something different. Yes, the results aren't pleasing, but what other company would be so bold to take such a drastic measure to try in reinvent the wheel? Yes, their implementation fails and is horribly lacking in many instances. I just feel the need to actually give them a pat on the back for being able to try what others wouldn't even dream of...

I just hope they are able to recover from this fumble, but the pessimist in me predicts that FFXIV will forever be fail.

I don't really see the desire to reformat XIV into XI-2. Maybe there are a few specific potential fixes that would result in some similar ideas (like the armoury system changed to a modified version of XI's job system), I don't think the results would ever be FFXI-2, nor should they be. I also had a lot more written out regarding why FFXI was built around restriction, and how that's what stemmed many of those specific memories, and that the reasons aren't always good ones, but I decided to edit my post down a bit. While I agree that FFXI gave a sense of teamwork and accomplishment, a lot of it was forced and artificial, and the way it went about it in many was was ludicrous. I want a sense of accomplishment because I actually achieved something, on my own or with a group, not because I finally completed a quest after spending 20-30+ hours (potentially shorter, potentially longer) farming mobs for the three quest items required. That isn't accomplishment you're feeling at that point in time, it's relief.

I can't speak of WoW's endgame, and thus won't, but I will say that at least it's "grinding" process is fun. It isn't just hours of looking for a party in order to participate in a mindless grind against mobs for untold amounts of hours to reach your next level. Progress is steady and noticeable whether solo or in a group, and you are rewarded as you progress with gear that is actually useful as well as experience. For all of the "memories" I have in FFXI, I would have loved if FFXI quests gave significant exp rewards in the old days to help speed leveling. It would have broken up the grind significantly, and made it more rewarding to actually complete many of them.

And I don't think they (SE) were as much trying something different as just not wanting to make a game like WoW (partially due to catering to their niche, and partially due to their lack of experience working with many of the gameplay functions that make WoW what it is), but not wanting to make FFXI-2 either. That, combined with a lack of experience in making content that was truly casual or solo friendly, and a design process built around restriction and RMT prevention, led to what we have now. I very much doubt it was through any kind of noble or courageous act to "make something different".

If anything, ArenaNet should be getting the applause for Guild Wars 2, for that very reason, certainly not Square-Enix.

[Hyan]

ArenaNet started using outside testers 3-4 years before the assumed release of GW2 (and GW1).

ArenaNet seemingly finishes their game before releasing it (as their payment model kinda requires it).

That's the difference.

The whole FF franchise is all about trying to reinvent itself. FFXI was always about trying to reinvent itself. It culminates their whole philosophy.

[Elrina]

Yes, yes, we've heard it and know that. It doesn't change the fact that SE and any other company is capable of doing the same, and doesn't. It doesn't change the fact that they (ArenaNet) actually are changing things up, while others aren't (including SE), regardless of the why and how.

I realize that Square's philosophy is to change things up and make something different each time around with their offline FF franchise, but as has been noted many times in the past, MMORPGs =/= RPGs. And while "change" may still have been part of their desire (they wanted to make it more casual and solo friendly from the beginning), I still doubt that it was through any serious desire to revolutionize anything, based on the actual results that we were given.

It seems apparent that their lack of experience with a large scale casual/solo friendly gameplay system, combined with their restrictive design decisions and their desire to avoid any features from being able to be considered similar to WoW (which has basically defined casual/solo friendly content in most modern MMOs) is what resulted in the decisions that made FFXIV into the game that it currently is.

[Tomino]

Mind that when someone refers to FF11, it could mean lots of things. Ziliart FF11, CoP FF11, ToAU FF11, pick yours. The game progressed and changed in so many ways I would had expect them to pick all the good stuff and put it for FF14, so that FF11 END point would match with FF14 STARTING one, or something like that.

On the topic of group feeling, I want a party of 6 players to act together, and to be expected to do so.
To me, one thing that made FF11 shine over other titles was how much improvement team work could bring to the table : think SC+MB, for ex. I loved the idea of 2 DDs building TP as mage was recovering, then using a skillchain to make an opening for a powerfull spell. I also liked the unique idea of classes dedicated to support others : Bards or White Mages would make no sense in WoW where everyone is supposed to dps solo.

In WoW, or other games, you don't see a Retridin opening for a Rogue. Both players play their class, system stacks all bonuses and that's it. Group effort is more oriented in avoiding stuff, proper positioning and wise use of certain skills.

Personally I like a mage nuker that's fragile, a powerfull melee that can't self-heal and a healer that needs to be protected. That's party play.
Otherwise (it's personal tastes) pick the GW2 route and make everyone for himself which can lead to some serious fun too.

[Hyan]

Personally I like a mage nuker that's fragile, a powerfull melee that can't self-heal and a healer that needs to be protected. That's party play.

I think it's hard to build group vs. group combat around that kind of setting, myself. I also don't think it's in any way inferior to XI's many vs. one setting as far as party play goes. I don't think there has been any uncertainty that they wouldn't go for this kind of setting in the end but well, they're taking their sweet time with it.

I hope they'll enforce this mindset with the upcoming combat changes too. Make it convenient for us to work in that kind of environment. It shouldn't feel like an afterthought, it should feel like -this- is what the game was designed for, even if it took them a while to get there.

[Tomino]

What I'm hoping for are *choices*, not just tossing features from the most popular games around mixed with nostalgia bits as a way to innovate the MMO market.

In FF11 you started all cocky against hares, then at lv10+ it was clear you had such huge weak points that you needed others to help you out. That integrated into the game experience quite nicely, well if you don't consider Valkurm Dunes disaster.

In WoW you start alone and are more than able to handle your stuff solo. A few quests says "Ask for help!" but aside from that, you play your game. You have plenty of resources to damage, absord damages, CC, heal and so on, game's fun. You soon learn that Elite Mob = group, and you're set.

FF14? You start all cocky, you keep doing Leves, you die to 1k needles, join mash-fest-behest, you then hit a brick wall made of grind and there is no reason at all to pick 6 others and make a party unless someone tells you "do it, it's for SP".
Classes are such hybrids that's also difficult to understand who or what you should invite. BG people are cool with usual MMO mechanics but other players? Is gladiator a tank? But pugilists vokes too. And marauders can defend! Conjurer can nuke but, wait, it also has Cure...

[Elrina]

I have to agree with Tomino's assessment. I think that it's superior to have specialized classes capable of performing specialized duties.

I've been thinking of this for a little while now, and I've now typed out three different posts (this is the fourth). I can't seem to get precisely what I want to express into words.

The way FFXIV classes function, with the armoury system, is that you have two types of combat classes. You can share most (not all) abilities learned on any class, with any other class, with a reduced efficiency (that can be mitigated to some extent through purchases made with guild marks, iirc, feel free to correct me here).

The classes achieve a level of homogenization by being able to share abilities spread from each other class. Some may also have, to varying degrees, their own natural means of survivability. Now, they have to choose between their main class's abilities and reduced effectiveness abilities from other classes with ability points, and are capable of equipping up to x number of abilities in total. These can be changed at any time, as long as you aren't in combat. This allows many of them to perform similar (if not the same) functions regardless of their current class, enabling them to perform duties that may be contrary to their current class's main purpose. Through this, they are able to handle challenging fights in a group vs group combat, since you don't need to depend on a single tank to hold every enemy, or a single person to heal every party member. At least, that's the idea behind it.

The reason why I don't think this is a good thing is that it sacrifices class individuality. Why is it an advantage in being able to change classes at any time, if you're capable of equipping most abilities from other classes anyway? Why limit stat re-allocation to such a degree, when there are only minor changes and advantages to changing classes anyway? Wouldn't it be better to allow instant class changing, but not allow cross-class ability use? Then each class would have it's own specialized abilities, their own purpose for being in the group, but they could change that purpose if necessary (by changing classes) at any time. And as far as the casual who only has one class leveled, they would still be lacking the myriad of abilities necessary anyway as a result, so at least that way they are still able to perform the one role they have leveled to it's fullest.

Going back to the argument of talent trees earlier in this thread or another, wouldn't that have been a superior idea for homogenization than letting every class use abilities from every other class? That way each classic job could have been used, and most have multiple ways they could be specialized naturally anyway, with the ones that don't having additional ways added. Then each job could be used and changed to, but each one could also be specialized to be used in different ways that are still specialized and unique to that job/class, but would fulfill a different role. And it would allow the continued existence of classes that were purely for buffing or debuffing, like bards in FFXI. Hell, each class could have two specializations, and just leave you with the ability to choose between them at will in order to perform different roles, and it would still remain superior as each class was still unique even when performing a different function.

[Hyan]

The kind of exponentially raising monster strength in relation to player is quite a bad way to tell players that grouping is necessary imo.

Better, imo, is to make it clear that soloing is slow and grouping is fast. Similarly to, let's say, campaign's exp/hr as opposed to grouping. Players should be made to think "hey, this is a huge grind- is there anyway I can make things faster? What's that, a group?"

I also don't think it matters who or how many you invite. Does it really? I think it shouldn't. "We need X class" sucks, "we need X #+-0 of people" sucks. However, within the group there should be a need to have distinctive roles, just not based on the class you invite, but the encounter.

it's superior to have specialized classes capable of performing specialized duties.

Former, perhaps, latter, not really. PUP, BLU, SCH, DNC, RDM, SMN are all capable of performing in multiple duties, but they all go about it in a different way. That's the kind of "specialization" that the game needs. It doesn't mean their roles should be pigeon holed into one as long as they are clearly distinctive from one another (as in they go about performing in the same roles in a different way).

I think giving all classes more unsubbable abilities for rank 30+ should do. Whatever their special way of performing in different roles is, around then it should start to be enforced.

[Elrina]

The kind of exponentially raising monster strength in relation to player is quite a bad way to tell players that grouping is necessary imo.

Better, imo, is to make it clear that soloing is slow and grouping is fast. Similarly to, let's say, campaign's exp/hr as opposed to grouping. Players should be made to think "hey, this is a huge grind- is there anyway I can make things faster? What's that, a group?"

I also don't think it matters who or how many you invite. Does it really? I think it shouldn't. "We need X class" sucks, "we need X #+-0 of people" sucks. However, within the group there should be a need to have distinctive roles, just not based on the class you invite, but the encounter.

I don't know about your first statement, it seems to work in a lot of other games, and isn't the worst way of differentiating mobs in the open world designed for groups and those designed for solo fighting.

And I go back to the fact that flat grinding on mobs shouldn't be necessary at all. Whether solo or in a group, people should be able to quests, do leves, do instances, do behest/campaign/hamlet defense/whatever, and receive more exp from doing so than they could on any type of mob from simply flat grinding. Sure, exping should be somewhat faster in a group, but not exponentially so. Exping shouldn't be the slowest and most dragging experience no matter how it's set up (the current rate of progression seems pretty good, and reducing it slightly while adding other ways of obtaining experience/SP at the same rate as it is currently would be optimal).

And I agree that it shouldn't matter who or how many people you invite or what their class is. But make it more dependent on the specific type of "grind" you're participating in, whether it be questing/leves/etc. that defines the need, and make search and party functions that make it easier in order to find other members to play with.

[Hyan]

I'm talking about the way XI did it to tell people to group or gtfo, it didn't leave any room for flexibility. And I don't think many if any games have tried to enforce and encourage grouping while trying to keep the system somewhat flexible. Some maybe, but I haven't played them. In that light, I think that the speed of soloing is still too high. People think "it's slow, but it could be worse" so looking for parties isn't the first priority. Granted, search system needs to change too. As far as their good design choices (LOL THERE ISN'T ANY RIGHT /bandwagon), this is a good approach but the mechanics themselves do not support it well enough at this point.

It's one of the problems that, with smaller changes and additions to the mechanics, will resolve itself. It'll all lock into place. Though I said this in September but it's still the case. However, if they are afraid of nerfing they won't get anywhere. Yoshida needs to grow some balls, it'll be for the best. Maybe not just yet though (after everything else has been dealt with).

[Sephiroth]

Soloing is still better than partying outside of leves and behests, you're just playing with bigger SP numbers than before. It's similar SP rate in party to solo but when you factor in the time it takes to set up your party and wait on people checking their retainers or whatever you lose a good chunk of SP that you could have gotten solo. Party play has to give a fair amount more SP than solo or people will solo out of convenience. The main deterrent to me soloing in this game any more is botters ruining the solo camps, which really shouldn't be happening so you can't call that a real incentive to party.

Behests need a maximum rank. It's ridiculous seeing people in their high 20s at Horizon when they'd get better SP down the road at Nophica while new players in the teens miss out because they didn't spam the behest NPC fast enough. 20 behest should be for 13-22s only. 13 is when you can pick up 20 leves and 23 is when you get 30s. A party of 13s is more than capable of taking on the behest so you don't need 28s at a 20 camp. Setting such limits might encourage people to sit at other camps like Nophica and Cedar instead of competing with everyone at Nanawa Mines and Horizon. While they're at it, add 50 behests so people in the high 40s don't have to kill the SP at 40 camps. Copperbell and Blue Fog would be suitable locations in Thanalan.

[Hyan]

I think they lowered the SP on EM and below mobs while raising the over-all SP gain (to combat solo focus), but clearly not enough.

[Kaylia]

I hope it fails like FFXI 'failed', then.

Its success isnt related to the quality of the content, but the community it created.

WoW and many other recent titles are much more designed on well-around classes, with GW2 pushing the idea even more. This said, endgame content loses a bit of group flavor / synergy and becomes more of a boss battle where 10 people have to move out of AoE or swith places.

What kind of group flavor/synergy older mmo had? What you were doing in FFXI was pretty much limited to staying out of an aoe, or standing at the right place. There was barely any movement. It was the same in older mmo too (even more zerging and gear check).

It's true that recent mmo seem to put the emphasis on group awareness, but the underlying dps,healer and tank mechanics are still very present.

[Sephiroth]

I think they lowered the SP on EM and below mobs while raising the over-all SP gain (to combat solo focus), but clearly not enough.

Anything that isn't blue gives more SP than pre-patch and anyone can solo green and yellow mobs. Blue still seem to give more too but it depends on the rank since blue can be a few ranks below you or 20.

SP gains at low ranks seem too fast. I'm ranking my THM to 20 now for Siphon MP, I was killing dodos at 10 for 500-700 SP solo. Moved on to lead coblyns at 12 (could have done them at 10 to be honest) and was getting 300-400. Now behests are giving me 12-13k per run each hour, which is a full rank in the mid teens.

[Hyan]

Yeah I mean the contrast between EM+below and above was made greater SP gain wise as far as I know, as opposed to before when there wasn't really that much of a difference between a blue mob SP and a red mob SP. I'd have favored them keeping the SP exact same it was before for EM and below and only implementing the changes to above EM, but sure this is better than doing nothing.

[Aratharn]

Mind that when someone refers to FF11, it could mean lots of things. Ziliart FF11, CoP FF11, ToAU FF11, pick yours. The game progressed and changed in so many ways I would had expect them to pick all the good stuff and put it for FF14, so that FF11 END point would match with FF14 STARTING one, or something like that.

Exactly.

No one is asking for FFXI-2, we just want the good features that worked well from FFXI incorporated into their new game. I think almost everyone got excited when they heard of another square FF MMO because they assumed SE would take all that was good from FFXI, combine it with features that worked well from other MMO's, and incorporate some new things that hadn't been seen.

If anything makes this FFXI-2 it's the fact the races are the exact same.