Random Complaint Thread. No white knighting allowed.

[Hyan]

Well, there's not really an endgame scenario to speak of and the closest example is XI, in which BLM's were favored over melees/treated equally for lot of content. I don't see why the situation would be any different here just because CON can do both. If anything, it's because the other game mechanics fail if nuker becomes a useless role. In that case the situation wouldn't be any different from playing a BLM in XI post-ToAU.

tldr it's not the fault of the class if nuker is useless/inferior.

[Sephiroth]

So I guess what you're saying is FFXIV could do with some mobs that are more resistant to physical damage where nuking would be the preferred option? When I talk XIV end-game I refer to the five world NMs, which is as close as we have right now. I don't see why you'd bring a nuker into a party for those. CONs are usually better off helping to keep the tanks alive.

[solracht]

Why don't you invite conjurers to nuke when you have enough healers? If it's because having conjurers nuking is worse than having DoWs, then nothing would change if you moved the spells to a new class.

Maybe I'm under the wrong impression, but the issue here is the fact that nuking spells are bad. If there was a Black Mage in our current game, it just would not be used or invited to anything, because people would still want DoWs to damage the NM.

That's what he's saying, too.

[Hyan]

Either that and/or make nukers do something that melees can't (or complements them), so it'd be always useful to have one or two around.

I loved how it was done in XIII.

[Sephiroth]

I've no idea how effective nukers would be on NMs. Probably run into MP issues, which is a disadvantage when comparing to a melee damage dealer. I can see AoE spells being effective on some NMs that come with half a dozen mobs if the spells aren't resisted. It's also a case of fairness within your linkshell. Like I pointed out earlier why invite half a dozen CONs when you can add more balance to your party to let others have some fun? You could play your CON as both roles but then if you run out of MP and your tank dies because you used a couple too many nukes you're going to feel bad. I don't think a CON should try to play both roles in important situations.

I am raging about horn and hand faction quests right now. I've just failed a 300 point one because they're the most retarded quests ever. You have to follow an NPC to a location. If you fall too far behind you will "lose sight" of it despite it being visible on your screen and radar, yet if you try to keep closer to it the NPC will turn around and start running towards you at certain points. Finding the right balance in distance is difficult and you have to be ready to turn around and run back the second the NPC does the same or you're starting it again. And let's not forget this NPC took me through an area filled with buzzards and black efts essentially making the quest impossible to solo for anyone who isn't high 40s or 50. You don't have time to fight anything, so you have to be high enough that the buzzards don't aggro and try avoid the efts.

[Yoli]

Having a conjurer - seriously - try to do both roles strikes me as a pretty bad idea. It's an easy way to be caught flatfooted when you need a sudden heal or two, and no good ever comes of that. I don't see why you couldn't have some set themselves up to heal and some to nuke, though. I say this not actually knowing how the nukes perform on high level mobs, because I don't really track anyone's damage. But I'm under the impression you can still damage them. And you will have mp problems, but that's when you run off and siphon mp from something else (the fights are also short, w/ 30 minute rage timers. So just pace yourself well and you can probably manage to contribute throughout most of the fight. Will stop now, since I'm not at all qualified to give conj. advice.

My biggest problem, frankly, is that they just rolled the two classes up into one. Which isn't /really/ a problem (assuming you can go either way), but just doesn't "feel" right to me. And it does enoucorage that "oh, you can heal? You'll do that for us then" attitude that shouldn't really have to deal with when another meaningful avenue of contributing is open. (blm damage having been meaningful, whereas rdm enfire sword dd was not).

Anyhow, I wouldn't read anything into endgame based on the 5 mobs we have now. They may be the closes we have to end-game, but that doesn't make them end-game material by a long shot. They're basically just hp bags with an interesting gimmick or two (a hate reset, stone, bringing in lots of adds, etc). They're also in the game courtesy of a dev team that's no longer in charge of things to my understanding, so to even assume that their design can let us read into the future about real end-game design is probably a mistake.

[Elrina]

Hyan, you have a point that maybe the current classes should also get a theme or trait that signifies or changes them around that level, but I don't know that they really need one. Like, maybe a quest just to grant them the ability to start learning certain other "Gladiator" specific abilities, but they don't really need a special theme/trait because they already are a gladiator. However, the number of branches each class has doesn't necessarily need to be static across them all, imo, there could be 2 or 3 branches aside from the "base class". Seeing as some classes could easily support branching and some couldn't (can't immediately think of what Archer might be able to do other than "Ranger" or whatever, although a second specialty that's more short range AoE vs long range single target or something idk).

Also, at first I was liking how you suggested make certain abilities cross-class still post 30, like something that would be White Mage and Paladin specific only, etc. Then I started thinking that they might start abusing that too much, and then a lot of classes would be sharing a lot of specific things between them, and I don't know if that would really be a good thing. Even if they essentially do the same thing, give Paladin a "cure" spell called something different and unique, let each class have their own abilities called after their own themes and lore, even if the function of said abilities is sometimes shared by another class.

This would require them to actually put some extra thought into what to call them, although I can't imagine it would be that difficult at all. The only big part is that it would require different animations, but when a single "class" of abilities we'll call them do the same thing, despite being called something different (like a cure shared between Paladin and White Mage), their animations could be mostly the same with slight alterations. It just seems like it would be lazy, and encourage them to share more abilities rather than come up with unique ones for each specific job specialization, and that would be a big part of the point is how unique each class specialization is compared to what an alternate class/job can do, even if it's mostly flavor text.


Sephiroth, I can just imagine what you're talking about with Conjurers, and this idea Hyan and I are throwing back and forth would be an awesome way of dealing with it. I guess we can only hope Yoshida came up with something similar, instead of deciding to completely scrap the system or just rename classes themselves (which I agree would be kind of stupid, since the traditions, lore and ability sets of current classes just wouldn't fit properly with traditional names without a specialization). That might bring about a point where magic damage is worth something again, with a CON's Black Mage theme bringing some awesome specialty magic to the table that actually has a point in being used. Could also be a third specialization, or two types of BLM, one that focuses on single target heavy nukes and one that's more AoE focused nukes, but not just raw nukes, sometimes specialty magics or complimentary magics (kind of how Hyan referred to FFXIII's Ravagers).

Also, the current 5 NMs, especially with the respawn that I'm under the belief they have (within an hour or two?) are not an endgame. That might be something to go kill at max rank, and might have a couple special items it drops, but that an endgame does not make. I realize people are getting a little desperate to have something to do, or have some kind of purpose, but I just personally think it's sad that those 5 NMs are considered an actual endgame, even if a poor one. I'm not playing though, so I guess I can't really understand how it feels to be at max level and stuck without anything to do.

And man, that sounds like a really awfully designed escort-like quest/leve/whatever. There are just so many things, this is just another, that it's like "Why would they even think to do this? What sense does this make?". It's not like there are silent oils/prism powders or something.

(Oh, on that note, that's something I really liked from FFXI that other MMOs don't seem to have. Instead of just thief or ninja or whatever having stealth abilities, an actual aggro system built around sight/smell that allowed use of those items to stealth around mobs of higher levels. Really wish they had/would bring something like that back, I loved how that worked, trying to sneak past mobs that just have a generic "range" of aggro with no reliable way of stealthing if you aren't on a "stealthing class" sucks.)

Not going to start ranting again! Going to make something to eat, and ponder the nature of the universe as I sit here doing nothing, trying to decide what exactly to do. Maybe I'll finish the book I'm currently reading, since I did just buy a new one yesterday. :3


tl;dr A bunch of different stuff I couldn't possibly hope to sum up! In a good mood today, I'm going to go make some food. :3

[Alderaan]

I actually absolutely hate the entire concept of sneak/invis oils but they were necessary for XI. There was really no other way to get around otherwise when every mob you run into was made for a group to kill.

Maybe it was just the stupid randomness that i hated when shits starts to wear off as soon as you use it.

[Hyan]

MGS'ing was usually possible as it was quite easy to judge your distance, dungeons sucked though. I think the whole concept came much later though, and it's the reason why dungeon repop times are so long..

[blythe]

Here's a random complaint: "You nock an arrow"

This has been in the game since BETA. Trivial stuff like this just contributes to the game feeling unpolished imo

[Yoli]

Huh? What's wrong with that.

[blythe]

Huh? What's wrong with that.

If you're in a party with an archer, every time they nock YOU get a message saying "You nock an arrow." Not "Archer Person nocks an arrow"

[Elrina]

Yeah, that's pretty dumb. Personally, I think the fact that it needs to tell you that "You nock an arrow." even if you're the archer is dumb. When you select to fire an arrow, you should fire an arrow. Hell, that's the thing with active/passive modes, isn't active mode supposed to put you into a combat ready phase, and that's why you move slower and don't regen? So weapons should be readied, arrows should be nocked, just by virtue of being in active mode. I never understood the whole "Character readies action." messages. Why inform us of that? Why the delay? Just make the damn action happen when I activate it unless it has a cast/use time.

I actually absolutely hate the entire concept of sneak/invis oils but they were necessary for XI. There was really no other way to get around otherwise when every mob you run into was made for a group to kill.

Maybe it was just the stupid randomness that i hated when shits starts to wear off as soon as you use it.

MGS'ing was usually possible as it was quite easy to judge your distance, dungeons sucked though. I think the whole concept came much later though, and it's the reason why dungeon repop times are so long..

I agree that I didn't really like the randomness to their use, and would have preferred a static length, even if it was shorter. At least then they would have been more reliable, since we'd know exactly how long they would last.

But, for instance, I really enjoyed focusing on raising my extract and aether extract skills in Aion to max. I probably had them at both at/near max by level 30 (I don't remember exactly, it might have been a few levels sooner, but it was certainly by then). That's long before I'm even remotely high enough for some of the areas I had to gather in. And same with WoW, I started that for the first time like a week ago to play with my fiance till either FFXIV turns around or GW2 is released, and I'm bringing up two characters. One is a little higher and I haven't really done much profession wise with it yet, but the other is level 31 (as of right now) and I'm skilling mining on it. My skill is currently 256, and I'm raising it to 300 before I stop skilling and go back to actively leveling.

People didn't really say much in Aion, but I've had several practically chew me out so far in WoW, people that I know, for going into areas that are significantly higher level than I am. But it doesn't cap my skill at this level till 300, and then only till level 40 and then I'll have a higher cap I can bring it to. I personally really enjoy running around raising my gathering skill (and did in Aion as well), especially since it requires going into higher level areas and having to sneak around to be able to do it. But when aggro just depends on a generic range from the mob, rather than a sight/sound system like in FFXI, it makes it more difficult and annoying.

Like Hyan said, it was possible to MGS easy enough except for specific locations. While I agree that the way XI handled mob difficulties wasn't very good, I still think having them aggro based on sight/sound was really cool. Then you had reliable ways to sneak past enemies in higher level areas that would aggro based on sight, and both sight and sound if you used certain consumable items.

tl;dr - I don't like getting shit from people because I enjoy doing something that requires me to be in an area that's higher level than I am. And I don't really like how annoying it can be when mobs aggro based solely on proximity that seems like it can vary from mob to mob without a reliable way to judge that distance, or when they just crowd around so much that there's no reliable way to sneak past ever unless you use the one single class able to stealth. I just think it would be cool if games (including FFXIV) included aggro systems like FFXI, so that if you aren't on the one single class that has some kind of stealth ability you're still able to sneak around with some kind of reliability in areas higher level than you are.

[Kaylia]

I liked sneaking around the place without sneak or invisible (mostly invisible because certain place where just impossible without sneak). It was really fun to go through the Palace of Huzhoi, Ifrit cauldron or Kuftal Tunnel without aggroing anything. With sneak/invi, it could be fun as well when there was a close call. Trying to find a safe place when you're given the 15 seconds warning was always scary, and managing to pull that off properly was gratifying. The only drawback was how harsh the penalty for faillure was because even with reraise, dying in the middle of a dungeon was a pain in the ass.

What I hated about sneak/invi was trying to move efficiently as a group. People were retarded, didnt carry the potion, and were taking really bad decision when there was an emergency. Mistake happen, I know I've done plenty, but some people were just godawful at it.


[edit]
Sneaking around was one of the few challenging things I liked about FFXI. It wasn't incredibly hard, but dodging aggro was enough to make you feel good..much more than NM.

[Alderaan]

I still have nightmares of trying to sneak 18 people to the O-hat spawn. That place was brutal with oils wearing off 2 seconds after you apply them. No one ever wanted to just kill our way though cause it would take too long. Meanwhile people are getting lost running off some direction they shouldn't to re-apply oils which turns the run into a rescue party. Ah memories.

[Kaylia]

I still have nightmares of trying to sneak 18 people to the O-hat spawn. That place was brutal with oils wearing off 2 seconds after you apply them. No one ever wanted to just kill our way though cause it would take too long. Meanwhile people are getting lost running off some direction they shouldn't to re-apply oils which turns the run into a rescue party. Ah memories.

Well, having to go to yhoat, then go through the temple and the grotto was the worst part. It was just too damn far

Even if sneaks start wearing off instantly, you always have enough time to run to a safe place. If you fail and aggro, running to the entrance (or to the spawn point) wasnt even that bad..but yeah, people still find way to fail hardcore.

[Elrina]

That's what I'm talking about. I want that baaaaaaaaack ; ;

The times sneaking through for the O. hat spawn or trying to reach Byakko island without someone in the alliance aggroing and then someone trying to help and the next thing you know 6 people are dead and needing to be raised in the middle of a ton of aggro were totally worth it in exchange for those moments I'd walk through the field of golems in Ullikummi's room with impunity without stealth meds or slip past a gob in a tight tunnel because his back was turned or another of the countless situations it came in useful.

I wish I could do that right now while mining instead of just having to completely avoid mobs like the plague, which isn't even always possible since they're often scattered just far enough that their aggro ranges overlap and make it stupid trying to get through certain locations. It doesn't mean I won't zombie my way through anyway, it's just annoying that I can't stealth my way through and avoid the necessity,

[Sephiroth]

Some mobs appear to aggro to sight in XIV, raptors for one. I've been to a lot of areas filled with mobs that would 2-3 shot a 50 in Shroud and I can usually get past the raptors if they are facing a wall. Maybe some mobs aggro to sound too and we just don't know it yet. It's hard to tell the difference between sound and general aggro with no potion. I can't even figure out what elementals aggro to. I can stand next to one without aggro yet when I start shooting arrows at a bat next to it the elemental will aggro.

Having a conjurer - seriously - try to do both roles strikes me as a pretty bad idea. It's an easy way to be caught flatfooted when you need a sudden heal or two, and no good ever comes of that. I don't see why you couldn't have some set themselves up to heal and some to nuke, though. I say this not actually knowing how the nukes perform on high level mobs, because I don't really track anyone's damage. But I'm under the impression you can still damage them. And you will have mp problems, but that's when you run off and siphon mp from something else (the fights are also short, w/ 30 minute rage timers. So just pace yourself well and you can probably manage to contribute throughout most of the fight. Will stop now, since I'm not at all qualified to give conj. advice.

My biggest problem, frankly, is that they just rolled the two classes up into one. Which isn't /really/ a problem (assuming you can go either way), but just doesn't "feel" right to me. And it does enoucorage that "oh, you can heal? You'll do that for us then" attitude that shouldn't really have to deal with when another meaningful avenue of contributing is open. (blm damage having been meaningful, whereas rdm enfire sword dd was not).

Anyhow, I wouldn't read anything into endgame based on the 5 mobs we have now. They may be the closes we have to end-game, but that doesn't make them end-game material by a long shot. They're basically just hp bags with an interesting gimmick or two (a hate reset, stone, bringing in lots of adds, etc). They're also in the game courtesy of a dev team that's no longer in charge of things to my understanding, so to even assume that their design can let us read into the future about real end-game design is probably a mistake.

When my CON is 50 I may try some nukes on the NMs but I can't imagine ever being in the NM party as a CON for anything other than healing. I'd probably almost always be more useful as ARC than a nuking CON due to breaking parts and extra regimen damage.

Your second paragraph is exactly what my complaint is. Playing main healer role just isn't for me. I don't mind backup healing from any class and I'll even toss cures at the tank from my archer in emergencies (which is a pain since shooting range is further than cure range) but sitting there spamming heals without feeling useful as a nuker just isn't for me.

Those 5 NMs do tend to be considered end game right now because it's the only thing to do at 50, and they can be challenging fights unless you have a group that know what they're doing. Dodore especially since one error can cause a wipe. They're a good taster of what's to come, I think bringing lots of adds will be the norm rather than a gimmick. It's just too bad they don't make more use of them or give them drops that make you feel like you're not wasting your time killing them. I mentioned earlier about the possibilities of a claim being based on a linkshell (party leader's used) rather than a party, that way you can have challenging adds and split your team into parties that go above the 15 man limit. Then the adds can be more challenging too like the main NM. Have the drops come when the whole NM party is defeated rather than for each mob. But maybe it's easier to just instance shit like that and keep world NMs for the kind we have now.

[Kaylia]

Being punished for crafting with battles gears on....Why are they doing this?

[Gulkeeva]

Some mobs appear to aggro to sight in XIV, raptors for one. I've been to a lot of areas filled with mobs that would 2-3 shot a 50 in Shroud and I can usually get past the raptors if they are facing a wall. Maybe some mobs aggro to sound too and we just don't know it yet. It's hard to tell the difference between sound and general aggro with no potion. I can't even figure out what elementals aggro to. I can stand next to one without aggro yet when I start shooting arrows at a bat next to it the elemental will aggro.

Elementals aggro when you get anywhere near them, I consider them sound aggro. However they do not attack immediately. Their aggro is the same as effts... they turn and face you, flop around.. maybe stare at you for a min... and may or may not attack you but just stare. It may not be so noticeable if you run toward one that is already facing you (they move their arms to the sides a bit and float up/down a bit faster), but if you run at one from behind you will notice they spin to face you.