Random Complaint Thread. No white knighting allowed.

[Joyo]

And therefore it is also impossible to compare inflation/economic indicators between the US and China since $1 != one yuan, rite?

You're comparing rates of change, which are unitless.

You cant compare them if you go with 1 dollar = 1 yuan which is what ascalon used in his "pretty" chart. If you want to compare them you use currency exchange rates.

Congratulations. You gain a rank in "I Can't Read English". I say that in the text you quoted! Or did you just look at the chart out of context and not read the article I linked as well? Yeah, I'm not the one looking 'pretty stupid' right now.

If you know its stupid then why make the chart in the first place?
And i only read a small part of your blogpost mainly the part below the chart:

As you can see, the levelling curve for FFXIV is much steeper than FFXI’s, which I think contributes greatly to the feel of the grind in the game.

The curve for FFXIV is only steeper because you didnt use some kind of factor to convert FFXIV exp into FFXI for example.
You gain exp faster in FFXIV than in FFXI and the game has only been just released.
When FFXI was still new getting like 2-3k exp/hr was pretty normal and you could only get that grouping. In FFXIV you can get twice that without having to look for a group for hours a day

[CrstyCptSteveWitherspoon]

I don't even bother grinding my lancer anymore with the current system. Crafting is fine, a bit of a grind, but not bad at all, esepcially with leves. I can do a craft and see "Hey I can do this item without failing, and get 200 sp each time It'll take me an hour to rank up" vs "Hey, I just killed 4 VT fly swarms on lancer and got 0 sp, 50 sp, 0 sp, and 180 sp, and on my way here I killed a blu mob and got 200 sp, I have no idea how long it will take me to rank up, especially when these flies repop at 1-6 mins and there's only 3 in this area".

Really don't know why they didn't include a chaining system liek XI's since that was actually a decent system. They left a lot of (can't believe I'm saying this) 'good' ideas from XI out.

[ascalon]

You gain exp faster in FFXIV than in FFXI and the game has only been just released.
When FFXI was still new getting like 2-3k exp/hr was pretty normal and you could only get that grouping. In FFXIV you can get twice that without having to look for a group for hours a day

You realise you're doing what you just told us not to, right? Comparing XI and XIV's rate of xp gain.

The actual comparison of data may not be "like-for-like", but the principle stands. It takes longer to level in FFXIV than in XI, especially given the random nature of advancement.

The fact remains that the CURVE of progression gets steeper faster in XIV than in XI, which is why I didn't focus on the numbers so much. If it was like WoW where for higher level mobs you get more and more xp (or skill in XIV's case) then this wouldn't be a problem. But you don't. There is a cap of 500 for non-guildleve mobs, and normally you get a lot less than that. Even if I worked out the 'exchange rate' as you put it, it wouldn't change the curve all that much because the level numbers would remain the same.

But hey, maybe you want to work it out for us. I'm an English teacher, not a mathematician. I was just creating a ballpark.

[Cutriss]

^
Much better way of putting it than my long-winded way! :D

Yeah, well, even then I totally said the wrong thing. The point is much the same, but it's not technically unitless - it'd be levels per abstract unit of time.

Just thought I'd throw that in there before someone came along and jumped down my throat for a technical error.

[ascalon]

Actually, I don't think you CAN create an 'exchange rate' can you, because of the random nature of the skillpoint system. If there was a flat figure per mob, then sure. But there isn't. Which, oddly, was my point.

[Lyramion]

Actually, I don't think you CAN create an 'exchange rate' can you, because of the random nature of the skillpoint system. If there was a flat figure per mob, then sure. But there isn't. Which, oddly, was my point.

you are right but I can give you a raw figure. Doing duo Grind as Conj Archer (around JobLevel 25~) which seemed pretty "good" SPs... good as in... actually make progress with spending huge amounts of time and doing the 20/30 Leves.

My Job XP bar was crawling about alongside of my Physical XP. So I was doing around 30000 Job XP at the same time around 120000 Physical XP. Which would make me get a ration of around 25% of Physical XP as Job XP on a very raw average.

[Joyo]

You realise you're doing what you just told us not to, right? Comparing XI and XIV's rate of xp gain.

The actual comparison of data may not be "like-for-like", but the principle stands. It takes longer to level in FFXIV than in XI, especially given the random nature of advancement.

The fact remains that the CURVE of progression gets steeper faster in XIV than in XI, which is why I didn't focus on the numbers so much. If it was like WoW where for higher level mobs you get more and more xp (or skill in XIV's case) then this wouldn't be a problem. But you don't. There is a cap of 500 for non-guildleve mobs, and normally you get a lot less than that. Even if I worked out the 'exchange rate' as you put it, it wouldn't change the curve all that much because the level numbers would remain the same.

But hey, maybe you want to work it out for us. I'm an English teacher, not a mathematician. I was just creating a ballpark.

Well i think i didnt word my first post that well. Of course you can compare them but just not like that.
Rather than looking at the tnl needed per level it would be better to have some kind "average exp time spent per each level" value for FFXI and FFXIV each. Then again the time spent to figure out some decent values is probably better spent trying to level up!

Personally i dont think there is much of a difference between them. Once people find good exp spots and grouping gets more popular it should feel a lot less "grindy".
I am not even sure why everyone wants to hit max level within like 2 months anyways because i dont think there is anything to do.

My Job XP bar was crawling about alongside of my Physical XP. So I was doing around 30000 Job XP at the same time around 120000 Physical XP. Which would make me get a ration of around 25% of Physical XP as Job XP on a very raw average.

If there is a connection between class and physical exp like that it would be best to check each tnl and maybe its the same for the exp you get per mob. People who played one class only had roughly the same class and physical level right?

Or SE could just get rid of the random skillups.

[Dantrag]

I think the huge problem is that SP doesn't scale. Like it was said before they cap it at 500. In reality we should be getting scaled SP. @ 10, on average, we should be getting more than we were at 1 or 5. At 15 we should be getting more than at 10 etc. It'll take about as much time as it took to get to 75 in XI before they nerfed the exp to get anywhere. I think it was what? some 70k to get a level before the exp got taken down to the 40ks it is now?

Personally i dont think there is much of a difference between them. Once people find good exp spots and grouping gets more popular it should feel a lot less "grindy".
I am not even sure why everyone wants to hit max level within like 2 months anyways because i dont think there is anything to do.

Or SE could just get rid of the random skillups.

1) Even if you find a good grinding spot, Skill ups are completely random. Blues can give 200 while reds/orange give 20 or 0.
2) Everyone knows the real game starts at end-game.
3) Agree, SE could just do away with the random skill ups. Toss physical levels out the window and let us play any class we wanted to w/o being gimp.

[miokomioko]

It's apparently difficult for people to not compare a game that's 8 years old, completely explored, discovered, and exping methods optimized... with a game that's still brand new, unfinished, undocumented, still confusing, etc.

Try comparing the grind of currently-known XIV solo/party dynamics with the theoretical grind of low-level, 4-man, 3-melee/1-BLM/WHM parties on mobs who's weaknesses/attributes and best camps are still entirely unknown in XI.

[Lyramion]

If there is a connection between class and physical exp like that...

There is no conenction. Just giving raw data of what the results are of "average" activities in the game.

[Toth]

It's apparently difficult for people to not compare a game that's 8 years old, completely explored, discovered, and exping methods optimized... with a game that's still brand new, unfinished, undocumented, still confusing, etc.

Try comparing the grind of currently-known XIV solo/party dynamics with the theoretical grind of low-level, 4-man, 3-melee/1-BLM/WHM parties on mobs who's weaknesses/attributes and best camps are still entirely unknown in XI.

But Mioko, this game is by the same developers of XI. They were 'allowed' to tweak and work out FFXI because it was their first truely big online game. The concern I and many have is that with all the experience of XI (and even new developers can still see how XI progressed from its start), there should not have been such glaring issues and step backwards that this game has been showcasing thus far.

[Meko]

I personally don't see any harm in rewarding skill/exp after the mob is dead or after the leve is complete. Imagine "You have killed the Star Marmot. You gain 300 EXP and 300 skill points.". It would really make leveling a little more enjoyable for me personally because as it sits, with the chat window spam, I miss skill ups even though they append them at the end of the fight when they display EXP. I don't know though, after reading it, it doesn't sound like it would work.

[Lyramion]

Exactly that... Exp should be Skill.. or at least 50% Exp should be Skill - it would promote Teamwork and Party and make you hunt strong mobs.

[ascalon]

It's apparently difficult for people to not compare a game that's 8 years old, completely explored, discovered, and exping methods optimized... with a game that's still brand new, unfinished, undocumented, still confusing, etc.

Try comparing the grind of currently-known XIV solo/party dynamics with the theoretical grind of low-level, 4-man, 3-melee/1-BLM/WHM parties on mobs who's weaknesses/attributes and best camps are still entirely unknown in XI.

Wow, you really are being antagonistic for the sake of it aren't you. Of course, unless you have another character that you're keeping quiet about, you've only been levelling the DoL/DoH, where skillups are guaranteed for every action.

But either way, this is PART of the documentation. This is part of the exploration. The discovery. The finding out if skill point gain CAN even be optimised.

If you don't like it, don't join into the discussion, rather than having to open your cake hole whenever people start looking at things you don't think they should. Keep your opinions to yourselves and let people interested in this stuff talk about it.

Y'know, unless you LIKE constantly sounding like a dick.

[Lordender]

I don't even know why people just don't put the whiteknights/SE defense force idiots on forum ignore, they are trolls at best right now and really bad ones at that. There is no way to defend this game without looking like a god damned idiot troll.

On topic of horrible exp system:

The only way to grind right now solo at 20+ is to find high blue mobs that fight like green mobs but don't deal as much damage as a pure green mob so you can kill them very fast without much downtime. Finding such mobs is hard, yellow/green mobs can be killed fairly easy but more times than not they just aren't worth the downtime and random skillpoints, you also have to factor in the miss factor especially on a melee job.

[ascalon]

Rather than looking at the tnl needed per level it would be better to have some kind "average exp time spent per each level" value for FFXI and FFXIV each. Then again the time spent to figure out some decent values is probably better spent trying to level up!

Yeah this is the problem though. With FFXI, that's easy enough to do. You have a flat rate of XP with modifiers for mob difficulty, group play, and other special factors.

With FFXIV, you don't. There's no flat rate for skill points. All we know is that there's a 500sp cap, but there's no way to hit that consistently (or even very often).

Personally i dont think there is much of a difference between them. Once people find good exp spots and grouping gets more popular it should feel a lot less "grindy".
I am not even sure why everyone wants to hit max level within like 2 months anyways because i dont think there is anything to do.

I agree that the social aspect of grouping makes things more fun. But I don't think it alleviates the grind in any way. In FFXI it was great because everyone got a share of the pot of xp per mob. In FFXIV, again there is no guarantee. Until SE does something about that, then grouping will be inferior to solo in terms of sp gain per mob.

It's not about hitting the max level for me. It's about feeling like I'm making some progress. As it is, even if I throw leves in into the mix, I don't feel like i'm getting anywhere. I want to try out all the classes and fully work with this awesome Armoury System, and yet the sheer thought of having to grind EVERY SINGLE CLASS to really get the most out of it just fills me with dread. I'm not a particularly lazy person. I like a challenge. But the way the sp gain is set up now is nothing to do with challenge at all, because you can get the same sp from an EP mob as you can from an IT mob. It's just a massive timesink, and it's just plain daft -- there are many more challenging and fun games out there that don't require such a ludicrous time commitment: and many of them don't even claim to be casual and solo friendly.

If you have the power and skill to defeat a Tough or Very Tough mob solo, you should be proportionately awarded for the time you spend killing it and the challenge you have overcome. That happens with Physical Experience, sure. So why not with Skill Points?

If there is a connection between class and physical exp like that it would be best to check each tnl and maybe its the same for the exp you get per mob. People who played one class only had roughly the same class and physical level right?

Or SE could just get rid of the random skillups.

Soon as I can find some actual complete data on physical levels, I plan on doing another table to see what the phys lev curve is like. I know it takes a lot more phys xp to level up Physical, but you also get Phys XP for pretty much every action in the game except secondary gathering.

Its the random skillup that's the issue. I posted a lot of feedback on it during beta, but nothing has yet to come of it

[Katlan]

But Mioko, this game is by the same developers of XI. They were 'allowed' to tweak and work out FFXI because it was their first truely big online game.

While the XIV dev's should have used all knowledge of XI, a majority of the original dev's left XI, for XIV, shortly after CoP's release (not even sure if they stayed through the duration of the CoP patches). It's obvious that they took a lot of knowledge from XI, but it seems that anything past TouA didn't make it into this game. Because WotG is where a lot of old content tweaks and stuff happened that made XI more accessible / fun (imo)

[ascalon]

Just for a laugh I inputted Eorzeapedia's (possibly outdated) TNL information for Physical Level into the same graph.

It makes it look a bit funny. I have no idea how accurate some of these figures are, but its a good job Physical Experience actually seems to scale with the level of the mob (Is there a cap on this per mob too? I honestly can't say I've been paying much attention to Experience Points) as its into 6 digits by Physical Level 26+.

Spoiler: show

http://demajen.co.uk/ffxiv/shots/pTNLchart.jpg

As you can see, the Level data goes up to Phys.40, the Rank data goes up to R.30, and the FFXI data now goes up to the current cap of 85.

[Dantrag]

A good thing would be to put in static amount of SP per mob for it's color.

Blue: 25
Green: 50
Yellow 75
Orange: 100
Red: 125

And then random skill ups as you go through the fight.

[ascalon]

A good thing would be to put in static amount of SP per mob for it's color.

Blue: 25
Green: 50
Yellow 75
Orange: 100
Red: 125

And then random skill ups as you go through the fight.

This, but with a bonus based on your group as well, since mobs change their colour depending on your actual group.

I think a change in the amount of SP per mob HAS to go hand in hand with sorting out the colour system and the difficulty of mobs, though. Currently, some Easy Prey mobs simply hit far too hard to really be classified as Easy Prey, and most mobs have far too few HP yet hit far too hard -- especially in higher star leves.