Random Complaint Thread. No white knighting allowed.

[Crizto]

Interesting that one. I always assumed Goldsmithing was GSM because blacksmithing is BSM. I mean, it's a logical assumption. Calling Blacksmithing BLK would be a logical assumption too if you see GLD before the other.

Also you have the problem of foreign languages. They each have their own class acronyms.

Until <job> is put in, you will never have a standard lol

[Sephiroth]

No, what he's arguing against are people who argue against Vent/TS for stupid reasons. i.e "Oh noes, I might as well type it!" You can't possibly say it'd be a inconvenience to say something rather than type it.

My god, some people on here will bitch about anything.

How exactly is it a stupid reason to want to listen to music when playing a game and want to actually read the LS chat rather than having to keep switching to the vent text chatroom or turn your music off and listen to people talking about rubbish?

Clearly it's an inconvenience to have to use a voice chatroom over text. During the day it stops me listening to music, during the night I can't speak to anyone because it will wake people up, not to mention having to wear a pair of headphones while playing late at night, which I don't want to do either.

Now I can't think of ANY inconveniences for you asking your simple question in an active LS chat. Sure some people may not see it, but most likely someone who knows the answer will. I'm just as likely to not hear your question over voice chat too even without the inconveniences I mentioned. I could be watching TV, listening to people around the house, focussing on something else, taking a shit, who knows. You can't expect everyone to always be around to hear what you say whenever you want.

[Grey Jorildyn]

He said it's a convenient way of asking a simple question, with the alternative being searching forums etc. Asking in LS chat is just as convenient, which is what he's arguing against.

I really shouldn't have to explain such a thing to you.

Yeah.. I never compared it to typing in LS chat. In any case, see my comment below. All I said was it's a convenient way of doing it. Typing in LS chat MIGHT might be a simple way of doing it if there was a "hold chat" feature on the text box or I could separate my text boxes or some other of the multitude of features other MMOs give us when it comes to chatting. SE has made text chatting a great inconvenience when you think about it. However regardless of my linkshell members' battle/crafting spam, they ALWAYS hear me asking a question on TS. And they answer too. I'd say that's pretty convenient, how could you disagree?

In fact I have posted on my forums for members to use linkshell chat when forming up groups instead of just inviting those in TS. Those players that join usually hop into the TS because then we can discuss where we want to head as a group FAR easier than having some back-and-forth chat in text with a buffer limitation. There might also be players on TS that aren't in the linkshell, therefore TS does provide the best method to communicate with everyone. Even if you don't have a mic, but can listen in, you're still at a greater advantage than trying to utilize SE's in-game chat. This is a fact no matter how you splice it.

What's wrong with asking such a simple question in LS chat?

No problem, but when I'm holding my pad, I don't want to put it down just to type something. Another drawback to the pad-designed gaming system... Don't get me wrong, I played my entire XI career on pad and the same will probably be for this game as well, but it's a real pain in the ass to put the pad down to type then pick it back up. Also, lack of auto-attack really doesn't allow you to just put your controller down. Bad game design is bad, and restrictive to boot.

How exactly is it a stupid reason to want to listen to music when playing a game and want to actually read the LS chat rather than having to keep switching to the vent text chatroom or turn your music off and listen to people talking about rubbish?

Now I can't think of ANY inconveniences for you asking your simple question in an active LS chat. Sure some people may not see it, but most likely someone who knows the answer will. I'm just as likely to not hear your question over voice chat too even without the inconveniences I mentioned. I could be watching TV, listening to people around the house, focussing on something else, taking a shit, who knows. You can't expect everyone to always be around to hear what you say whenever you want.

#1: I listen to music while on TS the whole time I play. TS comes through my headset and music comes outta my speakers. They are volume leveled so i can hear both comfortably. You don't need a high level of computer savvy to pull this off.

#2: If you go afk on TS, usually you put up an away (one mouse click), say you're going AFK, or hop into the AFK channel. It's voice chat etiquette, which you're not familiar with, and that's OK. Just thought I'd educate you on that subject.

Point stands, the reasons you've stated for not using voice chat are the same you'll hear any FFXI player say. No other group of mmo gamers thinks voice chat is so much of an inconvenience that they would go to such lengths to state all the reasons why they don't use it. There's a reason people use it for all manner of FPS, MMO, and other online games--because it is effective and faster than any other communication methods. But as I stated above, there's etiquette involved, which you clearly were not knowledgeable of. But so aren't a lot of other people and I think that's what turns them off to it.

Fun fact I thought I'd share: NI has an application process to join. Not one single player that has applied that has played a game other than FFXI has answered negatively to the "Are you comfortable with voice chat?" question on the application. However, just now looking through all the FFXI-only players that have applied, over a dozen said no, I am not comfortable with it. It's a community concept which will live and die with the players within it. Kinda sad how brainwashy it feels too. It's just another reason I personally feel the FFXI community was always behind the times.

[Nevex]

FFXI (at least pre-Abyssea, not sure if things changed now but doubt it) had absolutely nothing that required voice chat, in fact it was more of a hindrance than else since all voice chat did was making harder for you to listen to in-game sound clues (aggro, TP moves, <call> macros etc.).

What kind of voice chat support do you need to kill 200 Greater Colibri, type /as and engage something in Dynamis, fight something like Proto-Ultima when you already know its A.I. and whatnot?

Right now FFXIV is so easy and devoid of strategy that there is even less reason to use TS or Ventrilo, just target something and mash 1, or stand close (if you're a CON) or in front (if you're a THM) of melees and spam cures.

[Sephiroth]

Those are all fair points Grey Jorildyn but it still sounds like a hassle to me. Still I'll accept both have advantages and disadvantages. But like Nevex said there's nothing in XI that requires voice chat and XIV is the same. It only takes a minute to type out that you're going to camp X to kill Y and a few basic lines about how you want battles fought. For end-game NMs/content you'll probably discuss the strategy before you go do it. No time limitations on that. If shit goes wrong mid fight it could be good use of voice chat, but we coped in FFXI fine without. Maybe the fights just weren't strategic enough.

I am uncomfortable talking on mics in general however, even before FFXI I wouldn't use it to speak to people I know on MSN or wherever. It's even worse with randoms from the internet who you've never met. Not everyone is so confident.

[Grey Jorildyn]

I think you are assuming I or anyone in support of voice chat is saying it's required. To those people that want you to hop on TS/Vent for exp parties, I am sure they have their reasons, but I agree it is not a necessary component to the game. However it is a more convenient mode of communication than typing, that is all I can say about it. The nature of the game is that voice chat is not supported therefore text chat is still "required" to reach the most amount of people. Just because the most amount of people are reachable by a certain means of communication does not mean it is the most efficient, particularly with this game's current issues surrounding communication in general.

There is a great deal of value in voice chat for events like Dynamis or any other instances, raids, events, etc. that any group of gamers does with medium or large size group on any game across the internet. It is simply faster, smoother, and better than typing. If you're typing, you're not playing, but you can set your mic to voice-activate or have a simple push-to-talk button that does not hinder your gameplay. It's that simple. The argument was posited on a much broader scale than just FFXIV, since this is definitely not the only game out there.

Those are all fair points Grey Jorildyn but it still sounds like a hassle to me. Still I'll accept both have advantages and disadvantages. But like Nevex said there's nothing in XI that requires voice chat and XIV is the same. It only takes a minute to type out that you're going to camp X to kill Y and a few basic lines about how you want battles fought. For end-game NMs/content you'll probably discuss the strategy before you go do it. No time limitations on that. If shit goes wrong mid fight it could be good use of voice chat, but we coped in FFXI fine without. Maybe the fights just weren't strategic enough.

I am uncomfortable talking on mics in general however, even before FFXI I wouldn't use it to speak to people I know on MSN or wherever. It's even worse with randoms from the internet who you've never met. Not everyone is so confident.

No one is saying voice chat is a requirement, just that it is more convenient than typing if you put the small amount of time in to set it up and utilize it. It certainly has its disadvantages, but when time is an issue, such as in very strategic fights, it is a priceless tool that is at everyone's disposal (and I mean everyone, because at this point every real MMORPG out there is on PC, and most are PC-only). FFXI's fight were not very strategic and when they were, generally there were predictable, HP% based tactics you could use to defeat a mob. When you're talking 25-40 man raids in something like WoW, or Fortress Sieges in Aion (which was Faction vs Faction), voice chat was absolutely indispensable.

Fair enough. Some are not comfortable with it. I cannot understand why, and the reality of the world is you will be forced to talk to people who are total strangers your entire life. At interviews, on the bus, at work (before you get to know people), clients, customers, etc. The people you play a game with daily are far removed from what anyone would call your typical "stranger", no? Getting to know your team has its benefits. Sociology and Psychology tell us that much. Public speaking is also a big part of the life, in nearly any field you will study. Voice chat can be a really good way to introduce yourself to speaking with others and interacting on a safe level.

TBH I thought and felt much like you do now about voice chat just shy of two years ago. Now I cannot play without it. Sure there's time when I just wanna solo and not chat, so I don't put on my headset and just hang out in the AFK channel so people don't bug me (but I am the LS leader so people do need to talk to me occasionally) and I can progress my own stuff without those distractions. But when we get ready to head out somewhere with a party of 7-10 people, it's great to shoot the shit with people and just be yourself.

[Sephiroth]

Thing is it is required by a lot of good linkshells in this game that will become the linkshells people want to be in for end-game content. If this becomes a barrier and people get left out, people will end up leaving the game.

I've no problem speaking to randoms over a phone or in real life, it just feels weird speaking into a computer. I'm sure it's something you get used to, but I don't intend to try while I live at home where my parents will hear everything and think WTF?

[Grey Jorildyn]

Good/great linkshells use it because of its recognized value to gameplay. People won't leave the game over not wanting to use voice chat. They simply won't join those linkshells or will start up their own, which is a rather silly topic to be split on to begin with. I get that feeling you've only played XI to any potentially high degree, and I assume that because of your use of the word 'barrier'. VoIP is not seen as a barrier by any good players or people like it is among the XI community. In short: that is a misguided perspective.

Yeah it's weird at first but it's like talking on the phone to lots at once. It becomes second nature, much like how talking to the npc to switch your mog house used to be, or changing jobs and switching all your gear pre-satchel days. It's just one of those things that becomes a part of the way you game and can potentially improve your play as well.

This topic actually got me thinking about the differences between the FF community and those that play "WoW clones". Now I can't say I've played them all or been in too many communities but a base observation that I've noticed is that guilds in WoW type games, while tending toward voice chat, ignore the value of guild forums. Players utilize and post on community forums though and leadership update front pages and DKPs but I've not seen the use guild-specific forums play as large an organizational role in those games as they did in FFXI. Perhaps my sample size is too small to draw any broad conclusions (admittedly it is), so I won't generalize it any further.

[Karinastar]

I think for a lot of people it's just a comfort level thing as stated. Some people simply aren't comfortable talking with a bunch of people they don't know very well via voice, but may be fine with it via text. Those type of people may be very social in real life, but use the internet/online games as a sort of escape where they don't have to put on pretenses, and can have social barriers between themselves and others that they can control. Being "forced" to converse via voice is like having one of those barriers torn down. A lot of people consider people they meet on the internet as a different sort of friend than one they know in real life, and thus may not want to converse with them via the more "real" medium of voice. Even hearing the real voice behind a character may not be something they want to do. Alternately, they may have a job where they have to interact with clients/customers/coworkers/bosses all day, and when they get home they simply don't want to talk to anyone or have to listen to conversations.

Another situation that's quite common is that people live with others, and sort of "multitask" in that they'll play a MMO whilst conversing and being social with their wife/husband/family/roommates. In those situations, even being required to be on a vent to listen can be difficult. Likewise, if others in the house are sleeping, they may have to be quiet. In that case, they could just listen to the chat, but yeah...

Yet another situation that comes up, especially in LSes/Guilds that are together for progression and not social interaction is that sometimes people simply do not like each other. They may be able to play together in events cohesively and not argue, but it's a lot harder to just deal with someone if you are requested to interact in the same voice channel as them on a regular basis. This situation may be considered an invalid one since ideally you wouldn't have this sort of problem, but it comes up more often than not. :/

That said, I do agree that voice chat is vastly superior in speed and efficiency. In situations that require quick thinking and frequent strategy changes it is a very useful tool that can make the difference between success and failure. And in those situations, it is reasonable to request that members be on a voice chat if only just to listen to leaders. But I think that requesting people to be on voice chat when they play, even for stuff like exp parties with strangers is completely unnecessary. But, for people who do want to do that, it's nice to have an open server so that they can chat at their leisure.

Just my thoughts... not attacking or defending anyone as I think you guys have all brought up good points for/against.

[Grey Jorildyn]

I'm not sure why it irks me to hear reasons why people don't "want" to use VoIP, but that may stem from being a convert myself.

Anyway I agree wholeheartedly that there's a time and place for it. In my own LS it's only required for events, of which there are currently none. Still, our TS averages 7 people at any time of the day according to the stat charts. Considering the state of the game, I think that's pretty good. Now I want to complain about XIV again but I think I'll just try to fall asleep instead.

[mdkuser]

I hate how NAs assume everyone speaks english, and can speak english and understand english in headphones. chating in a linkshell and speaking in voicchat is totally different and cannot work due to the multilingual game.

[Grey Jorildyn]

It works just fine when you have an english speaking linkshell. I've yet to see recruitment for a linkshell seeking a multicultural environment. No one here is assuming people only speak English, I certainly wouldn't!

One complaint I've voiced before though is there should be regional servers. I don't think the average MMORPG players really gives a crap that people from around the world play on their server, and the way those people selected that server to begin with is usually arbitrary anyway. Personally I'd like more NA players on Figaro that play during EST prime time, but logic is just too simple an approach for SE I guess.

[Shaskoru]

The vent/typing "argument" shouldn't really be an argument at all. It's silly, and it can be simplified into that some people prefer to talk, and others prefer to type. If you want to join a party or linkshell that requires voice communication but you refuse to use voice communication, then they have a good enough reason to deny you. Would you also complain if they denied you due to your class, saying that you prefer to play x but they prefer to have y?

Stating that the game doesn't require it or typing is just as effective in the same situation doesn't really means shit when it is a preference, just as typing is your preference, by that particular group of people.

The only real arguments that can be made between types of communication in any online setting would be the best one used in a highly communicative situation: AKA situations where people already know voice communication without the need for push-to-talk keys are the real champions.

[Karinastar]

I agree on regional servers (not like it'd ever happen though), but I kind of think it should just be Japanese servers/Other servers. A lot of the time I'm on I feel isolated from other players outside my LS because the majority of them are JPs who just don't want anything to do with dirty gaijin (unless it's taking their gil). Most people from other countries will at least attempt to work together and don't actively isolate themselves from the rest of the community. A good example can be seen in shouts for parties... generally people from outside Japan will use autotranslate so that they can be (somewhat) understood by everyone, and they won't actively reject anyone if they can at least use the autotrans to communicate. Japanese people generally just speak JP unless they're really desperate or are trying to sell something. There are exceptions of course, but as a whole if they want to be isolated from everyone anyway, let them have their own server. Maybe I just see it this way because I play on Gilgamesh in FFXI and Figaro in FFXIV, both of which are "JP" servers, though. For all that though, I can't deny that when I played Aion it was pretty nice to be able to converse with anyone and have a reasonable expectation that they'd understand what I was saying. >_>;

[Riposte]

It works just fine when you have an english speaking linkshell. I've yet to see recruitment for a linkshell seeking a multicultural environment.

I happen to find a Japanese/English/etc linkshell. It was also the guys who organized the "Halloween" event on Lindblum.

[Dantrag]

God, all your shells must suck if none of you want to actually talk to your shell mates. Our shell had some of the most flat out hilarious conversations ever, none of which had to do with the game. It was just something we would do to pass time during things like windows and stuff like that. Generally what we do is make fun of each other while playing... and that's about it.

[Fhqwghads]

Making poor excuses for not using voice chat is such an FFXI thing, and it's carried over into FFXIV too apparently. Even in FFXI Ventrilo could be used to great effect. There's always going to be a new guy, or someone not paying attention, and a situation comes up where you need to get the person's attention to point out something which would otherwise wind up wiping a group. Typing everything out is an archaic form of communication in an MMO, and it just shows how stubborn some people in this community are. That, and there is no freakin' way in hell I would ever sit through a guild/linkshell meeting waiting for someone to type everything out. Especially on topics where a lot of debate might occur.

Also, just wanted to point out that there are plenty of people who use Ventrilo but don't like speaking in it. They don't have to. All they need to do is listen so they get important instructions.

[Lucavi]

Thing is it is required by a lot of good linkshells in this game that will become the linkshells people want to be in for end-game content. If this becomes a barrier and people get left out, people will end up leaving the game.

I've no problem speaking to randoms over a phone or in real life, it just feels weird speaking into a computer. I'm sure it's something you get used to, but I don't intend to try while I live at home where my parents will hear everything and think WTF?

If someone leaves the entire game because they couldn't get into XXX hardcore linkshell who wants to get shit done and requires vent so people's hands are actually free to play the game during a boss fight, then so be it. Vent is far superior to typing in critical times, especially in a game where there is no auto-battle and no real "rotation" to speak of. There is simply no time to type during a fight, unless you're dead.

I don't think I've ever heard of someone rolling out of another MMO because of this issue. Some of them include their own voice chat options. FFXIV is simply in the stone ages, once again, but the players are thankfully able to circumvent some of these caveman limitations.

I mean shit, do you play any form of FPS? Any? Even something as semi-casual as TF2 all but requires TS when you're playing with a good pack of friends or in a heated game. Unless you do nothing but play offline games and completely shun the 360, I have no idea how someone does not use voicechat for at least one of the games they play. I was voice-chatting back in 99 with Mechwarrior 4, and the shit was out before that.

If someone isn't "comfortable" talking to their LSmates, then so be it. Join a non-speaking LS, and try to rally that LS to become some huge end-game shell. Chances are you won't be able to, especially in this game, unless they completely rework how the combat system operates. If you can't get it done, then its time to grow up and learn to adapt like big boys and girls and talk to people, or at least HAVE the program and listen to the orders of your LS leaders during a fight.

I don't mind both voiced and non-voiced communication, but I couldn't imagine seriously raiding in WoW without TS, can't imagine playing any FPS without it, and certainly can't imagine it in this game for a serious fight, with just about every action resetting your chat bar and the constant need to type 11111121131114111651111.... for each fight.

[jPuff]

After a long day at work the last thing I want to do is talk to people using my voice. I'm not faulting other people for doing it, but I prefer to just type when I'm worn out or irate. And for the record I used vent plenty in FFXI in both tactical and social situations. It just wasn't my thing then and still isn't. It's not an FFXI thing for me at all-- this is how I've felt for the past 12+ years in online games. I "get" why some people like it though.

[Lucavi]

After a long day of work, I can't wait to talk to other people. I don't care about the medium, whether its at some stereotypical bar, the gym, over some friend's house in front of a console, or on my PC with the online crew. Communication is communication, laughter is laughter, and fun is fun. I can understand that vent isn't for everyone, and there are plenty of times where I don't feel like talking or listening to anyone, so I can understand where you're coming from.

I really just laughed at the comment about vent requirements potentially forcing someone to quit the game. Its just that funny.