Random Question Thread XIV: No Not XIV, XI

[buddha_masta]

Solid mathematical comparisons between Hagun and Keitonotachi WS DMG10%?

Not including 5/6-hit build comparisons here. Just pure WS dmg comparisons. For those times where x-hit doesn't matter since you have TP overflow most of the time for whatever crazy reason.

[Amok]

Does anyone know if the WS damage+% stats from Overwhelm, AMK hat and Magian weapons are the same stat or if they're applied seperately?

[Kirschy]

Solid mathematical comparisons between Hagun and Keitonotachi WS DMG10%?

Not including 5/6-hit build comparisons here. Just pure WS dmg comparisons. For those times where x-hit doesn't matter since you have TP overflow most of the time for whatever crazy reason.

Assuming all else is equal, the increase from 75 base DMG to 95 is based on your fSTR and WSC.

Let's favor hagun and estimate WSC in Abyssea with 2 atmas... Eve's Atma is +50 STR, Gigas' Atma is +40 STR, so we'll say +90 from Atma. +12 from hasso + 5 from food. Around +70 in an above average WS set, and around 85 base. I get 257 STR from that. 275 * .75(2ndary Mod) = 206. 206 * .85 (WSC Alpha) = 175. fSTR cap for Hagun is 16, and 18 for Keitonotachi.

Hagun = 75(DMG) + 16(fSTR) + 175(WSC) = 266 * 1.875 = 498.75
Keit = 95(DMG) + 18(fSTR) + 175(WSC) = 288 * 1.5625 = 450.0

Hagun is ~10.8% increase in WS damage at 100tp. (This increases to around 23% when WSing at 200tp.) Keit has WS DMG+10%, so hagun's advantage only turns out to be around 1% if you WS around 100tp.

That all said, outside abyssea the WSC term is lower so Hagun's advantage goes down. Also don't forget the ~21-24% increase you should be seeing in your regular melee damage. I feel it's important to note that Keit's delay makes it great a handful of good 5-hit builds that are available now. Unless you're unable to control your character every x seconds, going from 6-hit to 5-hit will always increase your WS rate. Maybe not the full 20%, but some amount!

[rog]

You're comparing at exactly 100 tp, which he clearly said would not be the case. So really the advantage is going to be even further in hagun's favor, unless you're going too far above 200 tp (why...?).

Seriously though, i'd love to know what this crazy reason is that you always have more than 100 tp when wsing.

[Kirschy]

Does anyone know if the WS damage+% stats from Overwhelm, AMK hat and Magian weapons are the same stat or if they're applied seperately?

Overwhelm doesn't work on any WS with consistent damage, so it's impossible to tell if they're calculated together or separate.

You could test the AMK hat and Magian weapon if you had a consistent damage weapon skill. Atonement or any ranged weapon skill should work. Some of the magic-based weapon skills have consistent damage and would work too. If anyone has a magian weapon with a consistent damage WS and the AMK helm with 2% they could test and tell us~

[Kirschy]

You're comparing at exactly 100 tp, which he clearly said would not be the case. So really the advantage is going to be even further in hagun's favor, unless you're going too far above 200 tp (why...?).

Seriously though, i'd love to know what this crazy reason is that you always have more than 100 tp when wsing.

To be perfectly honest I hear something similar often. It's usualli when people don't feel confidant in their ability to WS at 100 tp all the time and feel the 5hit build is wasted. There's plenty of people who average 7.5 hits/ws with their 6hit build, and then move to a 5hit build and their rate goes down to 6.5 hits/ws. A ~14% increase.

I didn't know if the poster was of that mentality, or was going to find themselves in a situation where they had tp overflow so I included the increase at 200tp in my reply. =p

Also forgot to add that Sekk's bonus is lost with Hagun!

[Sechs]

Let's favor hagun and estimate WSC in Abyssea with 2 atmas... Eve's Atma is +50 STR, Gigas' Atma is +40 STR, so we'll say +90 from Atma. +12 from hasso + 5 from food. Around +70 in an above average WS set, and around 85 base. I get 257 STR from that. 275 * .75(2ndary Mod) = 206. 206 * .85 (WSC Alpha) = 175. fSTR cap for Hagun is 16, and 18 for Keitonotachi.

The sum of what you wrote is 262, not 257 (and you forgot +30 from enhancements). And right after you wrote 275 instead of 257.

As for reasons to WS slightly above 100% I can see many. Connection lag, ability spam lag, monster moving, DA procs, having to wait for SC (lolSC...), Amnesia or just being asked to hold back.
The question Buddha asked is only for WS use, because overall they can't be compared (more melee damage on Keito, but Keito is hardly 5hittable without some sacrifices, well, exclusing both Empyreal armor pieces).


So the "for dummies" version for math-dumb people like me is that in Abyssea at 100% tp Hagun is still slightly better than WS keito, with this difference noticeably increasing at 200%? Talking, like Buddha asked, only about WS damage of course, not overall.

[Clash Perez]

Are there any known caps to delay reduction? Specifically Dual Wield traits/gear, but also Blitzer's Roll.

I know haste has been tested to death, but I've never heard anything about dual wield and/or delay reduction caps.

From the looks of it, NIN can hit 45% delay reduction now; come the Lv90 cap, THF/NIN could hit 40% while maintaining capped gear haste. Looks pretty damned good on paper.

[rog]

80% total delay reduction.

[Clash Perez]

Separate from or including Haste-type delay reduction?

[rog]

Yes, that's what I meant above with "common sense".
When the modifier % are the same for both stats (for example Dragon Kick, it's 50% both STR and VIT) and stats on items for that slots are very close, normally STR is preferred because of fSTR and because STR naturally gives attack. Say for example a STR+5 helm and a VIT+6 helm, I'd probably prefer the first. Now put a STR+7 and a VIT+15 helm in comparison, I'd probably go for the latter.
But this isn't what I wanted to know. It would be hard for me to explain even in my mother language, it's definitely harder for me to do it in english.
Let's try with a graphic (numbers are completely made up, it's just for the sake of making an example)

http://i55.tinypic.com/1jnuw8.png

Now I imagined there is a "threshold", which is the red line. This threshold is somehow related to the sum of both stats. The higher BOTH are, the higher the threshold will be. If one stats gets too far away of the other, the threshold will be lower.
Adding too much of a stat over that threshold makes you get diminished returns from that stat, or even no return at all, as if you didn't add anything after a certain number.
Now if you could somehow raise the other stat as well, in this example VIT, the threshold would go up as well, and you would get a higher return from the STR values, which were in surplus before you raised the threshold.

I have no clue if such a mechanism (which is present in other games, that's why I'm asking) is present in FFXI too. I honestly never bothered/wondered before now, I never found myself not even remotely close to such a situation, until Abyssea and its +120 STR bonus.


Decimals after the first one, I thought? Or at least that's the case for many other stats in FFXI, like TP for example

No, it doesn't work that way. Go by a slot by slot basis, and then at the very end figure out exactly how much wsc you get from each, to see if you could increase your gain from one by sacrificing some of the other, without actually dropping it below the previous tier. Ie 100 str at 30% mod is 24.9 (has anyone tested if wsc scales down further past 75?), so adding 1 more would increase it by 1. However dropping down to 97 wouldn't decrease it at all. Although obviously this is difficult with martello cores not being constant, giving varying amounts of stats, as well as not currently knowing if the .83 wsc mod still applies at 85, or if it's lower now.

If hypothetically, you had 9000 str, and 10 vit, because that simply ended up being the best you could get out of every individual slot, that would be perfectly ok.

No, all decimals are dropped, as with almost everything in ffxi (except tp, pdif, etc).

Sorry, missed the post before.

[Sechs]

No, it doesn't work that way. Go by a slot by slot basis, and then at the very end figure out exactly how much wsc you get from each, to see if you could increase your gain from one by sacrificing some of the other, without actually dropping it below the previous tier.

That's exactely what I wanted to know There is no such mechanism in FFXI then. I'll just try to refine tiers, altough as you said already, martello cores in the scars areas kinda make it hard. It will surely be the same in Heroes areas, I bet.

To be honest it's not like I have a lot of pieces which I can reasonably swap to get more VIT. Using Spiral Ring so no need there, only slots are Genbu's Kabuto in place of Anwig, Kemas earring in place of Bushi and Kirin's Osode in place of Haramaki. In all other slots that I can think of, it would be very unwise to swap pieces for VIT ones. Well, I'll calculate numbers when I'm home later.

Thanks a lot! A no need to be sorry, you were doing me a favour after all

[seiji]

You're comparing at exactly 100 tp, which he clearly said would not be the case. So really the advantage is going to be even further in hagun's favor, unless you're going too far above 200 tp (why...?).

Seriously though, i'd love to know what this crazy reason is that you always have more than 100 tp when wsing.

because you get kick from pick-up abyssea xp if you WS kill before azure capped

[Guitarman]

silly question, but are elemental ninjitsu affected by MAB?

[rog]

because you get kick from pick-up abyssea xp if you WS kill before azure capped

Then switch to the next mob?

[rog]

silly question, but are elemental ninjitsu affected by MAB?

Yes, they're calculated exactly like elemental magic.

[Guitarman]

Yes, they're calculated exactly like elemental magic.

awesome. you rock, good sir

[Byrthnoth]

So, RDM dingged 85 last night while killing NMs, and I was wondering... is there any freaking way to move Refresh II above my Ninjutsu? It autosorts to the bottom! Most annoying shit ever. Moving things around in my spell list is acceptable, but non-permanent, but I can't figure out how to move things around between two magic classes.

[Ocara]

So, RDM dingged 85 last night while killing NMs, and I was wondering... is there any freaking way to move Refresh II above my Ninjutsu? It autosorts to the bottom! Most annoying shit ever. Moving things around in my spell list is acceptable, but non-permanent, but I can't figure out how to move things around between two magic classes.

If you hit crtl+M you can rearrange your entire magic list including all spells of all types and change the order however you want, which will affect how they show up when you've got multiple types of magic interacting in the spell list.

[Byrthnoth]

Okay, cool. I will try that when I get home.

Now for some Mythic questions:
1) Is the "Occasionally Attacks Twice" given by Mythic AM3 50% or 40%?
2) I seem to remember Kirschy saying it didn't play nicely with DA (applied separately rather than additively), am I remembering right?
3) This is the most obscure question, so bonus points to anyone who gets it. -- If I'm mainhanding a Mythic and off-handing another weapon with AM3 active, does the offhand get the OAT affects of AM3?

Additionally, what are WARs eating these days? Yesterday I was a bit shocked to find that I was waaay over the cap for Yellow Curry Buns (over 500 base attack). I tried Hydra Kofte and it was good, but 28k. Where is my econo-meat that doesn't suck?