Random Question Thread XIV: No Not XIV, XI

[Yugl]

FM, you're making several assumptions that we can easily prove false. First, you're assuming that I am taking up the argument for or against the number of devotions merits a WHM should have. I am not doing so; I am merely pointing out that his point is not a contradiction. Second, you're limiting your argument to the usage of BLMs, which only served as a single example in my post; however, this argument easily extends to other mages such as RDMs and BLU. Even if you're actively trying to trigger the !!, you can still run out of MP. In fact, it's almost always the case that I run out of MP cycling through spells on RDM trying to trigger the !!. This might change when I receive the 10MP/Tick Atma, but I doubt that is the case since I often sit at ~10MP with 3-4 more TIII nukes to test out. A BLM will have more difficulty since they can only rely on Atmas and gear and their spells are much more MP intensive than that of a RDM. Third, having the WHM there might not maximize utility, but it may be the best way he can contribute. If a friend wants drops and the only meaningful class he can contribute is WHM, and WHM would allow us to straight tank the NM, then I would prefer to have him there with access to devotion. WHM may not play a key role, but pragmatically speaking (since you're all about this), not all people play a key role when fighting NMs. In addition, if straight tanking allows us to kill the NM faster, there is no reason for them not to come WHM if they want a drop from the NM. Under such circumstances, especially since it's increasing the speed of the kill, it is not unusual if the RDM runs out of MP. Thus, there are circumstances that demand the full utility of devotion. Whether this makes 5/5 devotion a priority will depend on the comparative utility from merits that you sacrifice, and I suspect that will largely depend on the personal experience.

[Kirschy]

So it would be {(D + fstr + WSC*@)*ftp*pdif}*1.10?

Yea, that is how the WS DMG+2% helm works. And from people who tested the Cyclone+10%, it appears to work the same way. If it's calculated together or seperately from overwhelm, I don't think anyone will be able to say, since overwhelm only works on WS which will vary too much. 1 + .19 + .10 = 1.29 vs 1.19 * 1.10 = 1.309 which comes out to be about ~2%. Would be nice to have an answer, but I don't think we ever will~

[BoomStick]

Thanx for all the help Kirschy.

[FailureMidgard]

FM, you're making several assumptions that we can easily prove false. First, you're assuming that I am taking up the argument for or against the number of devotions merits a WHM should have. I am not doing so; I am merely pointing out that his point is not a contradiction. Second, you're limiting your argument to the usage of BLMs, which only served as a single example in my post; however, this argument easily extends to other mages such as RDMs and BLU. Even if you're actively trying to trigger the !!, you can still run out of MP. In fact, it's almost always the case that I run out of MP cycling through spells on RDM trying to trigger the !!. This might change when I receive the 10MP/Tick Atma, but I doubt that is the case since I often sit at ~10MP with 3-4 more TIII nukes to test out. A BLM will have more difficulty since they can only rely on Atmas and gear and their spells are much more MP intensive than that of a RDM. Third, having the WHM there might not maximize utility, but it may be the best way he can contribute. If a friend wants drops and the only meaningful class he can contribute is WHM, and WHM would allow us to straight tank the NM, then I would prefer to have him there with access to devotion. WHM may not play a key role, but pragmatically speaking (since you're all about this), not all people play a key role when fighting NMs. In addition, if straight tanking allows us to kill the NM faster, there is no reason for them not to come WHM if they want a drop from the NM. Under such circumstances, especially since it's increasing the speed of the kill, it is not unusual if the RDM runs out of MP. Thus, there are circumstances that demand the full utility of devotion. Whether this makes 5/5 devotion a priority will depend on the comparative utility from merits that you sacrifice, and I suspect that will largely depend on the personal experience.

First off:

In any case, I will admit there is a way it isn't contradictory, but it is still stupid.

You're making this assumption, not me. Perhaps if that was your only point, I wasn't actually even responding to you originally.

Continuing, I am not assuming Black Mage only. In fact, I think Black Mage has become a much less useful job in Abyssea, and you're almost always better off with a Red Mage (all a BLM brings is stun, sleepga, and a few more spells to proc grellow!! - I don't think they do noticeably more damage over the course of a fight than a red mage, and they are far less versatile.). Also, I have no idea how you manage to run out of MP without the mob dying in general. Yes, there are maybe a couple mobs that have enough HP if you bring few enough people (read: 1-2 max) that you can run out of MP, but this is a corner case, at best.

At this point though, I think the burden of proof is on your end to point to a mob/player setup where this would matter, because you are just spouting hypotheticals. My argument is as follows:
If you are using melee, a white mage is good, and 2 DDs (+healer + bard) can kill any mob before a nuker runs out of MP (honestly, maybe BLU can run out of mp, but I'm still in the BLU is useless camp, and past that, I don't think a BLU can run out of MP anyway).
If you are not using melee, a white mage is better off saving his time and not entering, and the only time to even consider bringing one is if you just finished an exp party and have spare time. Also, virtually -any- job is better than a white mage to bring...even a DD who just meditate + WSes (or regain + WS). If someone really has white mage as their only job at this point ... I dunno, maybe they should go level another job. But time is a good enough reason for them to not come out just to devotion...if they want something, they may as well just sit outside the maw and zone in to lot, assuming they are a friend and nobody else actually fighting wants it...
Also, I have no idea why anyone would not have the 10/tick atma by this point. It's an utter joke to get and is amazing (50 int also...). You have your Abyssea priorities wrong, imho, if you are doing anything besides working towards it.

Anyway, please tell me a fight + setup that you would actually bring where you'd run out of MP. Also, when I say run out of MP, I mean use your mp pool, convert (x2), martello (if convenient...there's really also only a small handful of fights where martello use is not convenient), atma, and meds (not gonna mention megalixir or anything, but ascetics, ether2, 1 elixir should be pretty standard). I really have no idea how you run out of MP. Also, before someone says "well, MAB atma is better", ya, I'd agree, except for the whole fact 10tick comes with 50int, and 5/tick comes with 30MAB and 10int...soooo...

[BoomStick]

edit: Nevermind, not going to get in the middle this.

[Yugl]

My whole point was that it's not a contradiction, yet you went onto make further points outside of the fact. The only assumption I make is that you're responding to me, which is not a bad one to make considering you referred to my example.

While doing Ironclads I always run out of MP midfight. This is with me hitting 700-Near 900DMG nukes on RDM. Furthermore, you sidestepped a crucial component of my argument. If WHM allows you to kill faster because of benefits external to devotion (For example, by allowing you to straight tank without spending time and MP on cures + haste), it's only natural that WHM would have little MP problems while the ranking nukers will have greater MP problems. The problem with addressing my argument is that you're trying to force the issue of creating situations where such instances can occur while downplaying perfect examples (Someone only having WHM). In short, you're assuming that I'm making an argument for the number of merits into devotion necessary which is entirely untrue. I'm stating that it's not contradictory to state that WHM will not run into MP problems while the recipient of devotion will run into MP problems. Precisely because of the nature of contradictions, which account for hypothetical situations, you have to prove to me that there is never an instance where the aforementioned statement is true. However, I have already given you a hypothetical example where this is true; thus it cannot be a contradiction. When you bring pragmatics into an argument, you no longer work with contradictions and validity; you're arguing on soundness. My point only addressed the former while you're trying to counter it with the latter. That is ineffective arguing because it is independent of my point. That said, I have presented you a practical experience where I would run out of MP and the WHM would not. Such a circumstance would mean that given the specific scenario, which is obviously not generalizable to all scenarios, my point is not only valid, but sound as well.

In short, we're arguing two different things. I'm arguing that his point is not a contradiction (something you've admitted) and you're arguing that his point is not sound given personal circumstances.

[FailureMidgard]

In short, we're arguing two different things. I'm arguing that his point is not a contradiction (something you've admitted) and you're arguing that his point is not sound given personal circumstances.

No, I have no idea what we're arguing anymore. Meriting devotion is sound advice...specifically because I disagree with his initial assumption that Abyssea is all that the game is and will ever be. Past that, I'm arguing it's pretty fucking useless in Abyssea, which neither you nor anyone else has contradicted at all. You're saying it has it's uses, and I agree, but they are few and far between. Past that I'm saying "Any WHM who doesn't have Barspell merits needs to be dragged out into the courtyard and shot." is beyond poor advice, and is just inane.

I maintain devotion is pretty shitty in Abyssea. Yes, it has it's uses, but Protectra5 merits do too...that being said, I'm not about to, nor would I suggest that others remerit based on this. You, nor anyone else yet has provided a counter-example of any more merit than me saying "W. Turban is still a good piece for Sam because I didn't want to buy Abyssea." Just because you can give a true statement that doesn't contradict what I say does not make it a good statement with any real merit.

[Yugl]

Alright FM, I'm going to give this one more try to see if you understand why I'm saying we're arguing two different things (Contradiction v Soundness). Look at my initial post:

As far as I understand it, it's not a contradiction. He's saying that regen is only necessary to the extent that the WHM needs to save MP. Since MP is non-issue for WHM in abyssea, it is not needed. On the other hand, this tells us nothing about the recipients of devotion. Thus, the distinction lies between the target of devotion and the initiator. For example, one could argue that BLM, unlike WHM, will have MP issues because of the rate they spam nukes. This would follow this argument without providing a counterexample. Another interpretation that would save his argument from contradiction stems from the fact that they're two different merit categories. Consequently, and it would have to be a hidden premise of his (Hence, why I won't explicitly state it's his justification), one might argue for devotion because comparatively, there is no ulterior option.

Using this and only this passage, can you make deductive claims (i.e. all the premises included within this passage) about whether I think devotion should be merited at all? Can you make deductive claims about whether I think devotion should be merited to the max?

Spoiler: show

You shouldn't because I don't say shit about that at all. I only prove that it is not a contradiction because there is a distinction between the person receiving MP and the person performing devotion. Therefore, I don't have to give you an example of any NMs argue that his statement is not a contradiction.

[Faundrant]

Has testing been done to find out if the Magian WS DMG+10% 1 handed weapons still give the bonus when worn on the offhand? (Katana, Sword, Dagger, Axe)

[Nightfyre]

They don't.

Lowman JoL:

BLU/PLD MNK/NIN DRG/NIN BRD/WHM WHM/SCH THF/NIN

Y/N? Improvements to this setup? Is a dedicated tank even necessary at 85 or should I take RDM instead?

bumping

[FailureMidgard]

Alright FM, I'm going to give this one more try to see if you understand why I'm saying we're arguing two different things (Contradiction v Soundness). Look at my initial post:



Using this and only this passage, can you make deductive claims (i.e. all the premises included within this passage) about whether I think devotion should be merited at all? Can you make deductive claims about whether I think devotion should be merited to the max?

Spoiler: show

You shouldn't because I don't say shit about that at all. I only prove that it is not a contradiction because there is a distinction between the person receiving MP and the person performing devotion. Therefore, I don't have to give you an example of any NMs argue that his statement is not a contradiction.

Holy fuck, I said 2 pages ago that I was wrong on that and it wasn't a contradiction. Originally my other points weren't even directed at you, but since then YOU have made statements pertaining to the usefulness of Devotion inside abyssea. I have not once argued in a single post that it was still a contradiction. Stop trying to prove me wrong on something that I admitted was wrong in the 2nd fucking post I made. Really, stop responding to me if you aren't arguing with me, cause I haven't once tried to argue the point you are trying to make. Instead you make statements like:

Spoiler: show

While doing Ironclads I always run out of MP midfight. This is with me hitting 700-Near 900DMG nukes on RDM. Furthermore, you sidestepped a crucial component of my argument. If WHM allows you to kill faster because of benefits external to devotion (For example, by allowing you to straight tank without spending time and MP on cures + haste), it's only natural that WHM would have little MP problems while the ranking nukers will have greater MP problems. The problem with addressing my argument is that you're trying to force the issue of creating situations where such instances can occur while downplaying perfect examples (Someone only having WHM). In short, you're assuming that I'm making an argument for the number of merits into devotion necessary which is entirely untrue. I'm stating that it's not contradictory to state that WHM will not run into MP problems while the recipient of devotion will run into MP problems. Precisely because of the nature of contradictions, which account for hypothetical situations, you have to prove to me that there is never an instance where the aforementioned statement is true. However, I have already given you a hypothetical example where this is true; thus it cannot be a contradiction. When you bring pragmatics into an argument, you no longer work with contradictions and validity; you're arguing on soundness. My point only addressed the former while you're trying to counter it with the latter. That is ineffective arguing because it is independent of my point. That said, I have presented you a practical experience where I would run out of MP and the WHM would not. Such a circumstance would mean that given the specific scenario, which is obviously not generalizable to all scenarios, my point is not only valid, but sound as well.

Spoiler: show

Even if you're actively trying to trigger the !!, you can still run out of MP. In fact, it's almost always the case that I run out of MP cycling through spells on RDM trying to trigger the !!. This might change when I receive the 10MP/Tick Atma, but I doubt that is the case since I often sit at ~10MP with 3-4 more TIII nukes to test out. A BLM will have more difficulty since they can only rely on Atmas and gear and their spells are much more MP intensive than that of a RDM. Third, having the WHM there might not maximize utility, but it may be the best way he can contribute. If a friend wants drops and the only meaningful class he can contribute is WHM, and WHM would allow us to straight tank the NM, then I would prefer to have him there with access to devotion. WHM may not play a key role, but pragmatically speaking (since you're all about this), not all people play a key role when fighting NMs. In addition, if straight tanking allows us to kill the NM faster, there is no reason for them not to come WHM if they want a drop from the NM. Under such circumstances, especially since it's increasing the speed of the kill, it is not unusual if the RDM runs out of MP. Thus, there are circumstances that demand the full utility of devotion. Whether this makes 5/5 devotion a priority will depend on the comparative utility from merits that you sacrifice, and I suspect that will largely depend on the personal experience.

Yes, I cut out the part about it not being a contradiction. Again, stop making a fucking straw man. If you agree with me on my points, then by all means stop posting, but I haven't mentioned a contradiction since well, I said it wasn't one, so stop trying to convince me of something I already said I agree with, it's stupid as fuck. As it stands, you're basically saying you disagree with my initial post on 1 specific thing I already said I didn't agree with anymore, then using that as a basis to go off on a rant where you seemingly disagree with everything else I'm saying, the return to say that it's not a contradiction so I must be wrong.

WE AGREE, IT'S NOT A CONTRADICTION. Outside of that, Devotion is still borderline (read: very goddamn close) to useless inside Abyssea. If you want to argue with me, go for it. If your only argument is about a contradiction from 2 pages back that I stated wasn't a contradiction, then drop the fucking topic 'cause we agree.

[Yugl]

I don't see why you're so angry about it. Removing false premises from your argument strengthens your case if it does not kill your argument (Though that is redundant since any conclusion that is already valid on true premises will remain valid after the removal of false premises). As for the rest, it's not my fault that I thought you were responding to me. You quoted me and rog and gave a full retaliation on the subject. Rog merely agreed with one of my points, so it should not come off as surprising if I think you were responding to me.

Having said that, there is something to elicit from the debate (This applies to the whole of BG and not specifically you). Your argument for or against devotion merits in Abssea hinges on personal experience. It makes assumptions about the activities of players, their access to certain atmas and spells, and their activities. It's true that arguments such as "It only comes up in rare cases" will appeal to a general experience as long as the situation you describe applies to a majority of players. However, it's sidestepping the case when you try to make an absolutist claims because applicable instances are rare. It's a much stronger case when you acknowledge exceptions as counterarguments and accept them as such. This enables players to better merits, gear, and develop strategies. Trying to make an absolutist remark and defend it on the basis of "Oh, you should have this gear anyways" or "Well you shouldn't be doing this anyways" is the pitfall of a tautology. Marxist supporters often make these types of claims in political science where they will make a proclamation and counter all opposition by saying "Well, that's not real communism." In short, what they've done is made the line between antecedent and consequent equal rather than conditional. For this reason, it becomes meaningless. Overall, it would help people if they either acknowledged counterarguments or proved why counterarguments are false rather than simply sweeping them aside because they're subject to specific instances or criteria. After all, doing so assumes that all players have the same experience in FFXI and that is simply untrue.

[Snprphnx]

Finally built a new PC (one that gets more than 8fps in my MH). Are there any really good script guides out there. Never really had the need to worry about it, did 99% of my playing on PS3. I looked at some of the user submitted ones on the windower site and the the ones for my jobs (rng, cor, nin) look to basic.

Thx in advance

[Alistaire]

Has testing been done to find out if the Magian WS DMG+10% 1 handed weapons still give the bonus when worn on the offhand? (Katana, Sword, Dagger, Axe)

Would be easy to test. Sword + Atonement.

Edit: and I'll have that sword soon, on last trial

[FailureMidgard]

I don't see why you're so angry about it. Removing false premises from your argument strengthens your case if it does not kill your argument (Though that is redundant since any conclusion that is already valid on true premises will remain valid after the removal of false premises). As for the rest, it's not my fault that I thought you were responding to me. You quoted me and rog and gave a full retaliation on the subject. Rog merely agreed with one of my points, so it should not come off as surprising if I think you were responding to me.

Having said that, there is something to elicit from the debate (This applies to the whole of BG and not specifically you). Your argument for or against devotion merits in Abssea hinges on personal experience. It makes assumptions about the activities of players, their access to certain atmas and spells, and their activities. It's true that arguments such as "It only comes up in rare cases" will appeal to a general experience as long as the situation you describe applies to a majority of players. However, it's sidestepping the case when you try to make an absolutist claims because applicable instances are rare. It's a much stronger case when you acknowledge exceptions as counterarguments and accept them as such. This enables players to better merits, gear, and develop strategies. Trying to make an absolutist remark and defend it on the basis of "Oh, you should have this gear anyways" or "Well you shouldn't be doing this anyways" is the pitfall of a tautology. Marxist supporters often make these types of claims in political science where they will make a proclamation and counter all opposition by saying "Well, that's not real communism." In short, what they've done is made the line between antecedent and consequent equal rather than conditional. For this reason, it becomes meaningless. Overall, it would help people if they either acknowledged counterarguments or proved why counterarguments are false rather than simply sweeping them aside because they're subject to specific instances or criteria. After all, doing so assumes that all players have the same experience in FFXI and that is simply untrue.

Clearly protectra5 full merits are valid for people that blood tank with war/blu. Overwhelm merits are useless for people that love sam/thf. Wind Potency merits are better than Thunder Potency merits for BLMs who go to Sandworm (still, lol). Would you really not call these decisions silly?

If someone comes here and asks for advice, you should give them generally sound advice, not give them a 15 page form to figure out just how useful something is to them personally. In -general- Devotion is a weak merit choice for Abyssea, but up there with Shell5 for the strongest choice all around. Giving specific corner cases against this logic doesn't help anyone at all. That being said, I never once argued not to merit devotion, just that it was a poor choice within abyssea, and if someone came here and asked what white mage merits were important while inside abyssea, you'd be crazy and wrong to suggest anything other than cure potency and cure potency alone. The rest helps, is worth getting, but is not important nor should it be a priority. And I did acknowledge that you did have some corner-case times when it was good, but again, that's not something to base advice on.

Also, me arguing devotion is useless has nothing to do with personal experience, it has to do with numbers and numbers alone. Yes, I guess you can say the numbers are based on the idea you aren't going to full-time a dark staff, and will indeed swap to the proper staff. Yes, they are also based on the idea that your skills are somewhat near capped and you werent summoner burned with 50 elemental skill. Forgive me for making these assumptions, clearly we shouldn't say that the potency staves are better than the accuracy staves, because WHO KNOWS - maybe some people reading these forums can't land their nukes 'cause of skill issues. Dunno, I'm going to go ahead and make basic assumptions, I guess you're more than welcome to ignore them.

[Yugl]

Clearly protectra5 full merits are valid for people that blood tank with war/blu. Overwhelm merits are useless for people that love sam/thf. Wind Potency merits are better than Thunder Potency merits for BLMs who go to Sandworm (still, lol). Would you really not call these decisions silly?

If those are the circumstances you play in, then they're not silly. What is silly is that you subject yourself to those circumstances when you can do better (Though it is a video game and I'm indifferent when people gimp themselves since it means less competition!).

If someone comes here and asks for advice, you should give them generally sound advice, not give them a 15 page form to figure out just how useful something is to them personally. In -general- Devotion is a weak merit choice for Abyssea, but up there with Shell5 for the strongest choice all around. Giving specific corner cases against this logic doesn't help anyone at all. That being said, I never once argued not to merit devotion, just that it was a poor choice within abyssea, and if someone came here and asked what white mage merits were important while inside abyssea, you'd be crazy and wrong to suggest anything other than cure potency and cure potency alone. The rest helps, is worth getting, but is not important nor should it be a priority. And I did acknowledge that you did have some corner-case times when it was good, but again, that's not something to base advice on.

Well then, we're going to remain in disagreement. You believe advice should be general. I think it should be specific for the individual.

Also, me arguing devotion is useless has nothing to do with personal experience, it has to do with numbers and numbers alone. Yes, I guess you can say the numbers are based on the idea you aren't going to full-time a dark staff, and will indeed swap to the proper staff. Yes, they are also based on the idea that your skills are somewhat near capped and you werent summoner burned with 50 elemental skill. Forgive me for making these assumptions, clearly we shouldn't say that the potency staves are better than the accuracy staves, because WHO KNOWS - maybe some people reading these forums can't land their nukes 'cause of skill issues. Dunno, I'm going to go ahead and make basic assumptions, I guess you're more than welcome to ignore them.

You give them options. If they cannot land spells because their skill stinks, then they have the option of skilling up or making up for it using gear. Present both and let them choose. Interject doses of opinion if you want, but don't make it an absolute. More advice and more specific advice is the best advice. FFXI isn't like the real world where expediency is key. You shouldn't force people to take one-size-fits-all packages when it's clearly different for each individual. I'm surprised you're having difficulty accepting this principle given the amount of gear advice you do. When someone asks for advice between two pieces of gear, do you just spit out an answer because it is superior given your specific set up or do you ask them for the rest of their gear? Don't try to cook up a strawman example like you just did. Anyone can argue that Pluto's staff is better than Dark Staff, but that's because it's superior in every case. If there are exceptions to when a piece of gear emerges, present these cases. That's all. If you don't want to, you have to accept that your advice is incomplete. Is that necessarily bad? No, people don't want to write out all the possible situation. However, that doesn't mean they don't exist and that you should not acknowledge them.

Edit: I don't think you really understand the meaning of valid. Protectra 5 valid for WAR/BLU? Even your strawman argument is invalid.

[Fievel]

The amount of fail in these last few pages is fucking terrible, holy fucking christ.

[rog]

You could just not read it, like everyone else.

[Fievel]

You could just not read it, like everyone else.

Oh I havn't, but I enjoy reading this thread and with posts such as those, I'm not reading.

[rog]

The trick is to just skip past any posts longer than 2-3 paragraphs.