NASA finds possible habitable planet.

[Viserdes]

If the atmosphere is habitable for humans (enough free oxygen, but not too much) then it probably has some form of life, free oxygen on earth wasn't readily available until life made its appearance. Assuming that the atmosphere is similar to earth, which hasnt been determined yet, then there will probably be life based on what we know of our own planet.

As far as the earth's lifetime is concerned, were only halfway through the "habitable zone", after which the earth will (due to various factors such as a change in orbit and what not) become uninhabitable. Humans will be forced to lead a sustainable life, because in my opinion it is not feasible to "migrate" to another planet before we harm our environment and ourselves a great deal at our current rate.

As far as the cycles of the earth go, without digging my bedroom for the textbook it was made pretty clear that humans do have an effect on the earth's environment, whether to what degree is what i think is mostly being debated.

[Atreides]

it's definitely the oceans where we'll see things first. Already we're seeing the start of it with an estimated 60% of the large fish in the sea already being depleted, and massive dead zones caused by pesticide and other farming/industrial runoff, as well as garbage patches in the pacific. As scary as it sounds the gulf oil spill didn't really help matters but it's only a drop in the bucket.

Do people ever wonder why Japan insists on killing dolphins or attempting to reverse the whaling ban? It's because they rely too heavily on fish that are also eaten by larger sea life, and they need to kill off the other predators to make more room for their hugely unsustainable yearly take.

Simply put, we are putting to much in and taking too much out.

I don't think at this point we can say it's all part of the planets natural life cycle. If it was just global warming then maybe, but we're talking about virtually every ecosystem being taxed beyond the point it can handle, for the past several decades and at an ever-increasing rate.

I mean it sounds like scientists are trying to scare the shit out of people, but I think people should be pretty fucking scared.

[Mizango]

Damn, im late.

[notorious bum]

it's definitely the oceans where we'll see things first. Already we're seeing the start of it with an estimated 60% of the large fish in the sea already being depleted, and massive dead zones caused by pesticide and other farming/industrial runoff, as well as garbage patches in the pacific. As scary as it sounds the gulf oil spill didn't really help matters but it's only a drop in the bucket.

Do people ever wonder why Japan insists on killing dolphins or attempting to reverse the whaling ban? It's because they rely too heavily on fish that are also eaten by larger sea life, and they need to kill off the other predators to make more room for their hugely unsustainable yearly take.

Simply put, we are putting to much in and taking too much out.

I don't think at this point we can say it's all part of the planets natural life cycle. If it was just global warming then maybe, but we're talking about virtually every ecosystem being taxed beyond the point it can handle, for the past several decades and at an ever-increasing rate.

I mean it sounds like scientists are trying to scare the shit out of people, but I think people should be pretty fucking scared.

You watch The Cove? Pretty sure the profits from Sea Worlds don't hurt either. If people continue this mindset, native dolphins will go extinct in the next decade. Whales are already damn near(scratch that, almost all of them are) endangered over there. Fuckers killing Flipper's homies like that, film hasn't made me that pissed off in a long time.

[Atreides]

Yea, Japan's argument is that they need to kill off a certain amount of dolphins to allow fish populations to flourish, since they've overfished to the point that dolphin drives and whaling are almost a necessity if they hope to feed their population. I mean, if humans are taking more fish than the ocean can replenish, what room is there for other animals that eat fish?

[notorious bum]

That's a horrible argument for whaling though. They can learn to drop the superior species mantra and enjoy some nice commercial farm fishery. Dependency on mass farmed fish is inevitable and is already becoming a reality in the U.S., Japan gets no special treatment just cause they invented the sushi bar.

[Atreides]

yeah, they make some pretty retarded arguments for whaling, like how whale meat is a part of japanese culture (after world war II it was a common staple for school lunches, because it was so cheap). Are they going to tell the planet that whaling is culturally important once all the whales are extinct, in the hopes that the oceans will magically poop out new whales?

Not that Japan has any sort of exclusive license on the ridiculous "it's our right/culture/heritage" that the rest of mankind uses to justify his dominion over nature...

[notorious bum]

This seems relevant.

[Pirian]

The most habitable zone on the planet's surface would be the line between shadow and light (known as the "terminator").

Uh oh

Spoiler: show

http://open.salon.com/files/arnold_s...1252834454.jpg

[Mizango]

If the atmosphere is habitable for humans (enough free oxygen, but not too much) then it probably has some form of life, free oxygen on earth wasn't readily available until life made its appearance. Assuming that the atmosphere is similar to earth, which hasnt been determined yet, then there will probably be life based on what we know of our own planet.

Not true. The chances of two random processes coming out as the same conclusion are as astronomical as you can get. "Life as we know it" is a result of billions and billions of years of change in all facets from cells, genes, environment and down to the percentage of gases and pressures we have here on Earth. Thinking that another planet would just be the same as us because it has the same basic chemical constituents as us is completely off target and is a huge swing and miss. Oxygen is abundant in the universe, its not something that is exclusive to Earth by any means.

I mean if we want to get into the thought processes of life outside of our planet, let us first take a look at life on our planet. There are living organisms here on Earth that we call Extremophiles that not only live but thrive and have thrived for millions and millions of years, completely devoid of sunlight, oxygen, food (as we define it) and do so very well. So just on our planet alone we have already debunked your first statement. There are extremophiles that live in caves and feed off rock and that have never ever once seen even a glimpses of daylight. There are others that live in scalding hot volcanic pools of diluted sulfuric compounds. For anyone that watched 'Discovery's Life' then you'd recall seeing the various types of crabs and worms that live normally in 300-500 degree water that spews from thermal vents.

Video of life in scalding thermo vents for those interested http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4LoiInUoRMQ

So the idea that the chemical compounds in an Exoplanets atmosphere equates to "life as we know it" could not possibly be more wrong. I mean the term "life as we know it" is relative and completely arbitrary. Im not sure how apt you are when it comes to genes but im sure you realize that all it takes is one mutation or for something once dormant in the sonic hedgehog gene or the hox gene for the term "life as we know it" to be rendered completely irrelevant. I'm no gene expert by any stretch, but I have done research on the evolutionary history on the Tiktaalik and even talked to its discoverer Neil Shubin a few times. Not to go off into a tangent but as Woozie, Sath, Eliseos or anyone else that knows me can tell you, Exoplanets and their composition are my thing, its what I did my research on when I applied for grad school

As far as the earth's lifetime is concerned, were only halfway through the "habitable zone", after which the earth will (due to various factors such as a change in orbit and what not) become uninhabitable. Humans will be forced to lead a sustainable life, because in my opinion it is not feasible to "migrate" to another planet before we harm our environment and ourselves a great deal at our current rate.

The Sun will expand, become a read giant and swallow the shit out of the inner planets whole long before we could ever inch our way out of our habitable zone. Hell, Id say that the MW and the Andromeda Galaxies will merge billions of years from now before that thought is ever entertained seriously. I mean we are moving away at a rate of what? 2cm a year maximum? Yeah, id be more worried about our star that is on the decline eating us before anything else, I mean its at its midpoint right now.

As far as the cycles of the earth go, without digging my bedroom for the textbook it was made pretty clear that humans do have an effect on the earth's environment, whether to what degree is what i think is mostly being debated.

We certainly do contribute to it. The debate being raged is really on how much we contribute, as if it matters right?

[notorious bum]

billions and billions

Sagan, is that you?

[Atreides]

this is actually a pretty interesting article about what we can deduce about life on other planets.
http://library.thinkquest.org/C00376...?page=exobio08

I mean... we always see aliens walking around and talking in sci-fi movies, when in reality the development of speech is something that doesn't make a lot of sense from an evolutionary standpoint. Sure we can talk, but since our lungs and stomach share common plumbing it becomes significantly easier to choke to death on food.

[Mizango]

Also, the only thing that is CERTAIN for life as we define it is liquid water. The gases that make up the atmosphere here at home are the same gases you see in supernovae and in those lovely nebula pictures we all like to look at Yes that includes oxygen. Who's to say that life elsewhere doesn't sustain itself off of methane or nitrogen? Just like they have a certain level of toxicity to us, it perhaps would be the same with O to life elsewhere. Hell for all we know WE could be the extreophiles that live off of O instead of something more abundant like HE, granted we might talk a bit funny (Speaking of which, does anyone know without googling why we talk funny when we inhale helium? Its pretty cool once you know) but I mean you have to look at both sides of the coin and entertain all the possibilities.

But I mean going to another planet and expecting to see Giraffe or Elephants and recognizable life is a pipe dream. Random, non-interacting processes dont work that way. That is the equivalent of Miz and doppelganger Miz in SE Africa making the SAME exact choices since birth and basically becoming the same person without knowing each other or crossing paths. Perhaps in a multiverse if you want to go the Kaku route, but randomness does not work that way. You cant pigeonhole life, you've got to look at it with an open mind and approach it from an unknown pov.

Can you imagine explaining a snake to a alien? "You bro, there is this animal that is a highly efficient predator! It uses no fingers or toes to hunt, has vestigial limbs, slithers, sees in infrared, injects poison via hypodermic fangs and can taste the air through something we call a jacobson's organ! Thats right, I said its a top predator!" Can you imaging the looks you would get? You dont think of it like that because we dumb it down into a one syllable word called "snake".

Think outside the realm of what you know!

[Mizango]

Sagan, is that you?

<3 I did that on purpose, he's my favorite scientist lol. Although he denied ever saying that during a lecture, he once said it on a radio program for laughs and its was fantastic!

[Atreides]

Can you imagine explaining a snake to a alien? "You bro, there is this animal that is a highly efficient predator! It uses no fingers or toes to hunt, has vestigial limbs, slithers, sees in infrared, injects poison via hypodermic fangs and can taste the air through something we call a jacobson's organ! Thats right, I said its a top predator!" Can you imaging the looks you would get? You dont think of it like that because we dumb it down into a one syllable word called "snake".

doesn't this statement in itself assume that aliens will think the same way we do? For the most part human consciousness is extremely similar with a few cultural differences, but aliens could have entirely different value systems, or not even process information in a remotely similar way to the way we do.

I guess what I mean is that when talking about alien life (complex, "intelligent" alien life that is), astropsychology or astrophilosophy is probably just as important as astrobiology

[Mizango]

this is actually a pretty interesting article about what we can deduce about life on other planets.
http://library.thinkquest.org/C00376...?page=exobio08

I mean... we always see aliens walking around and talking in sci-fi movies, when in reality the development of speech is something that doesn't make a lot of sense from an evolutionary standpoint. Sure we can talk, but since our lungs and stomach share common plumbing it becomes significantly easier to choke to death on food.

I'm glad you brought that up, because you hit it right on the head. "Talking" is something we see as special, when it is not. Basically our fucked up construction gives us that ability. Dolphins, whales, insects, even microbes and just about every other animal, breath and eat via separate holes, rendering choking a foreign concept. Can you imagine if a snake had to hold its breath for 15 minutes as it swallowed its food whole? Or if a Dolphin drowned because he needed to eat?

I mean look at the concept of walking, we basically are "gracefully falling" with each step we take. Humans have back problems and have since the beginning, sitting in a chair and the likes isn't something we were meant to do over time. I could go on and on.

A lot of this falls under the theory and concept of "stupid design", hence Carl Sagan's "If god had any competition he'd be out of business" quote.

[Mizango]

doesn't this statement in itself assume that aliens will think the same way we do? For the most part human consciousness is extremely similar with a few cultural differences, but aliens could have entirely different value systems, or not even process information in a remotely similar way to the way we do.

Oh absolutely, that whole premise was based on a hypothetical assumption. But you're right, the way they think, communicate and interpret things around them could and probably is far different than we could even perceive. That is the thing I always found funny about movies like Independence day.

[notorious bum]

Alan Alda did a PBS docu movie on what makes human's unique(in terms of intelligence). Turns out the list was much shorter than I thought(I think it was narrowed down to 2, maybe 3 traits, its been awhile since I saw it). I miss Scientific American Frontier, Nova just don't do it for me anymore.

[Mizango]

Alan Alda did a PBS docu movie on what makes human's unique(in terms of intelligence). Turns out the list was much shorter than I thought(I think it was narrowed down to 2, maybe 3 traits, its been awhile since I saw it). I miss Scientific American Frontier, Nova just don't do it for me anymore.

SAF was my shit! Ah man, you cant hate on Nova lol. NDT is one of my advisers/mentors, how fucking cool is that? My daughter has a room full of NOVA gear, shirts, umbrella, stickers. NOVA is boss now that he's on there.

[Max™]

I think the more interesting question, Miz, is why people assume that life is ONLY possible with carbon-water-oxygen chemistry in the narrow temperature range where those offer plenty of complex interactions?