Question for the BG Gay community

[EternityEnd]

I'm not even going to respond to Kuya. None of that is actually proven and most of what he said is conjecture for trolling.

Some masculine gays dislike the feminine ones, and vice versa. It's not universal. Like I said, masculine gay guys are often referred to as "straight-acting," which is idiotic. Likewise, some masculine gay guys feel that the feminine ones are just purporting the stereotype and wrongfully creating a social schism between gay people and straight people.

[Koul]

It depends what context it's used in for me. If people call clothes or whatever gay I could care less. My friends say I'm gay all the time when they make fun of me but... I know they don't mean it in a negative way even if it's coming off as that. I think even if someone I didn't know called me gay I'd be like "yeah... okay. Your point?"

faggot or fag now... hmmm. Faggot is like nigger to me, it's something you reaaallyyy shouldn't say. But, I'm way too relaxed to give two shits if someone I didn't know called me a faggot.

I don't think teens or whatever should use it because more than likely the one getting made fun of doesn't have the stress management skills to brush it off. I know whenever I was in jr. high/high school I was emotionally unstable as hell. Most of the time teens use cuss words or offensive language to act cool or tough. Whereas adults use it to relieve stress and anger, I know I do should hear me when I drive. I blurt out EVERYTHINGGGG

[Tonko]

Words only have the power that people give them. Words like that hold no power as far as I'm concerned. They're a collection of syllables tied to a message. Getting caught up that the sounds they make might mean something else is a waste of time and energy.

Some masculine gays dislike the feminine ones, and vice versa. It's not universal. Like I said, masculine gay guys are often referred to as "straight-acting," which is idiotic. Likewise, some masculine gay guys feel that the feminine ones are just purporting the stereotype and wrongfully creating a social schism between gay people and straight people.

I fall in this category. I don't like feminine gay guys, but I also believe they have the right to behave as they chose. I also, am free to dislike them based on it, and chose not to associate with them. I also believe gay pride parades and the majority of gay "culture" do far more harm than good. If it wasn't for the sex with men part, I wouldn't be gay.

[Kuya]

I'm not even going to respond to Kuya. None of that is actually proven and most of what he said is conjecture for trolling.

Some masculine gays dislike the feminine ones, and vice versa. It's not universal. Like I said, masculine gay guys are often referred to as "straight-acting," which is idiotic. Likewise, some masculine gay guys feel that the feminine ones are just purporting the stereotype and wrongfully creating a social schism between gay people and straight people.

You're going to have to contend with science:

PET and MRI show differences in cerebral asymmetry
and functional connectivity between homo- and
heterosexual subjects

Ivanka Savic* and Per Lindstro¨m

Stockholm Brain Institute, Department of Clinical Neuroscience, Karolinska Institute, 171 76 Stockholm, Sweden

Edited by Jan-Åke Gustafsson, Karolinska Institutet, Stockholm, Sweden, and approved April 30, 2008 (received for review February 27, 2008)

Cerebral responses to putative pheromones and objects of sexual
attraction were recently found to differ between homo- and
heterosexual subjects. Although this observation may merely mirror
perceptional differences, it raises the intriguing question as to
whether certain sexually dimorphic features in the brain may differ
between individuals of the same sex but different sexual orientation.
We addressed this issue by studying hemispheric asymmetry
and functional connectivity, two parameters that in previous
publications have shown specific sex differences. Ninety subjects
[25 heterosexual men (HeM) and women (HeW), and 20 homosexual
men (HoM) and women (HoW)] were investigated with magnetic
resonance volumetry of cerebral and cerebellar hemispheres.
Fifty of them also participated in PET measurements of cerebral
blood flow, used for analyses of functional connections from the
right and left amygdalae. HeM and HoW showed a rightward
cerebral asymmetry, whereas volumes of the cerebral hemispheres
were symmetrical in HoM and HeW. No cerebellar asymmetries
were found. Homosexual subjects also showed sex-atypical amygdala
connections. In HoM, as in HeW, the connections were more
widespread from the left amygdala; in HoW and HeM, on the other
hand, from the right amygdala. Furthermore, in HoM and HeW the
connections were primarily displayed with the contralateral amygdala
and the anterior cingulate, in HeM and HoW with the caudate,
putamen, and the prefrontal cortex. The present study shows
sex-atypical cerebral asymmetry and functional connections in
homosexual subjects. The results cannot be primarily ascribed to
learned effects, and they suggest a linkage to neurobiological
entities.

Brain response to putative pheromones
in homosexual men

Ivanka Savic*†‡, Hans Berglund§, and Per Lindstro¨m*

Departments of *Clinical Neuroscience and §Medicine, Karolinska University Hospital,

171 76 Stockholm, Sweden; and †Department of Neuroscience,

Center for Gender-Related Medicine, Karolinska Institute, 171 77 Stockholm, Sweden
Edited by Jan-Åke Gustafsson, Karolinska Institute, Huddinge, Sweden, and approved April 4, 2005 (received for review October 27, 2004)

The testosterone derivative 4,16-androstadien-3-one (AND) and
the estrogen-like steroid estra-1,3,5(10),16-tetraen-3-ol (EST) are
candidate compounds for human pheromones. AND is detected
primarily in male sweat, whereas EST has been found in female
urine. In a previous positron emission tomography study, we found
that smelling AND and EST activated regions covering sexually
dimorphic nuclei of the anterior hypothalamus, and that this
activation was differentiated with respect to sex and compound. In
the present study, the pattern of activation induced by AND and
EST was compared among homosexual men, heterosexual men,
and heterosexual women. In contrast to heterosexual men, and in
congruence with heterosexual women, homosexual men displayed
hypothalamic activation in response to AND. Maximal activation
was observed in the medial preoptic area
anterior hypothalamus,
which, according to animal studies, is highly involved in sexual
behavior. As opposed to putative pheromones, common odors
were processed similarly in all three groups of subjects and engaged
only the olfactory brain (amygdala, piriform, orbitofrontal,
and insular cortex). These findings show that our brain reacts
differently to the two putative pheromones compared with common
odors, and suggest a link between sexual orientation and
hypothalamic neuronal processes.

Homosexual Women Have Less Grey Matter in Perirhinal
Cortex than Heterosexual Women

Jorge Ponseti1*, Hartwig R. Siebner2,3, Stefan Klo¨ ppel4,5, Stephan Wolff6, Oliver Granert2,3, Olav Jansen6, Hubertus M. Mehdorn7, Hartmut A.
Bosinski1

1 Section of Sexual Medicine, Christian-Albrechts University, Kiel, Germany, 2 Department of Neurology, Christian-Albrechts University, Kiel, Germany,
3 NeuroImage Nord, Hamburg-Kiel-Lu¨ beck, Germany, 4 Wellcome Trust Centre for Neuroimaging, University College London, London, United
Kingdom, 5 Department of Neurology, University Freiburg, Freiburg, Germany, 6 Section of Neuroradiology, Department of Neurosurgery, Christian-
Albrechts University, Kiel, Germany, 7 Department of Neurosurgery, Christian-Albrechts University, Kiel, Germany

Is sexual orientation associated with structural differences in the brain? To address this question, 80 homosexual and
heterosexual men and women (16 homosexual men and 15 homosexual women) underwent structural MRI. We used voxelbased
morphometry to test for differences in grey matter concentration associated with gender and sexual orientation.
Compared with heterosexual women, homosexual women displayed less grey matter bilaterally in the temporo-basal cortex,
ventral cerebellum, and left ventral premotor cortex. The relative decrease in grey matter was most prominent in the left
perirhinal cortex. The left perirhinal area also showed less grey matter in heterosexual men than in heterosexual women. Thus,
in homosexual women, the perirhinal cortex grey matter displayed a more male-like structural pattern. This is in accordance
with previous research that revealed signs of sex-atypical prenatal androgenization in homosexual women, but not in
homosexual men. The relevance of the perirhinal area for high order multimodal (olfactory and visual) object, social, and
sexual processing is discussed.

The main morphometric difference between heterosexual and
homosexual women was found in the left perirhinal cortex with
a relative reduction in GM in homosexual women. This area was
also found to be sex-dimorphic, showing a relative reduction in
GM in males. This raises the question whether female homosexuality
is associated with a sex atypical differentiation of this brain
area. The perirhinal cortex is located close to entorhinal cortex,
hippocampus, parahippocampal gyrus and amygdala, and is
known to be involved in a variety of functions like olfactory
processing, memory encoding and spatial processing. These
functions are related to the processing of sexual stimuli as well.

http://www.pnas.org/content/105/30/10273.full

Current evidence indicates that sexual differentiation of the human brain occurs during fetal and neonatal development and programs our gender identity—our feeling of being male or female and our sexual orientation as hetero-, homo-, or bisexual. This sexual differentiation process is accompanied by many structural and functional brain differences among these groups (1). In previous studies (2, 3), the Savic laboratory detected a sex-differentiated activation of the anterior hypothalamus in heterosexual men (HeM) and heterosexual women (HeW) and a sex-atypical, almost reversed, pattern of activation in homosexual men (HoM) and homosexual women (HoW). The hypothalamus (Fig. 1) is a small brain area located under the anterior commissure that is involved in many different functions, including reproduction. These observations raised several questions, one of which was whether the sexual dimorphisms described could be sex-atypical in homosexual subjects even with respect to factors not directly associated with reproduction. In a recent issue of PNAS, Savic and Lindström (4) reported that hemispheric ratios, as well as patterns of amygdala connectivity, were sex-atypical in homosexual individuals, with HoM exhibiting more female patterns than HeM and HoW showing more male-like features than HeW. Whether the observed sex-atypical characteristics are the result of processes that occur during the fetal or neonatal periods, as is the case with gender identity and sexual orientation, is an open question. The excellent imaging research of Ivanka Savic's group in past years has provided strong evidence for structural and functional brain differences related to gender and sexual orientation. The study of these differences has emerged from an era of prejudice and fear such as I experienced 20 years ago (5)

.

Savic's previous studies raised the question of whether certain sexually dimorphic features in the brain that are unlikely to be directly involved in reproduction may differ between homosexual and heterosexual individuals. The article by Savic and Lindström (4) provides the answer. The authors measured hemispheric asymmetry with MRI volumetry and functional connectivity of the amygdala with PET scans of cerebral blood flow. In HeM and HoW, volumetric measurements showed a rightward cerebral asymmetry, whereas the volumes of the cerebral hemispheres were symmetrical in HoM and HeW. Moreover, homosexual subjects also showed sex-atypical amygdala connections. In HoM, as in HeW, the connections were more widespread from the left amygdala. In HoW and HeM, on the other hand, they were more widespread from the right amygdala. Furthermore, in HoM and HeW the connections were primarily displayed with the contralateral amygdala and the anterior cingulate; in HeM and HoW, they were displayed with the caudate, putamen, and prefrontal cortex. Savic and Lindström describe sex-atypical cerebral asymmetry and functional connections in homosexual subjects that cannot be primarily linked to reproduction and suggest a link between sexual orientation and neurobiological entities. Further research is needed on the putative influence of testosterone on the same parameters (e.g., in individuals with complete androgen-insensitivity syndrome). Neurobiological research related to sexual orientation in humans is only just gathering momentum, but the evidence already shows that humans have a vast array of brain differences, not only in relation to gender, but also in relation to sexual orientation.

On the basis of what evidence are you going to reject this data? Based on your anecdotes? The data shows that your brain, as a gay man, is female like, even in areas not related to sexual attraction, so you can be compared to a woman in a man's body. I'm sorry but that's how it is. You can't latch unto science when you want it to prove that you being gay is not a choice, but natural, and then refuse science when it says something you don't like.

[Kuya]

You would probably be behaving more womanlike if culture weren't preassuring you into behaving in a way that is appropriate with your perceived sex, eternityend. It's really quite unfortunate that many gays can't fully express their appropriate gender, and must instead dress and behave as masculine as possible to avoid being ostracized.

[Rhinox]

Now I'm confused. Are you saying the effeminate gays are the "normal" ones?

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[Kuya]

Basically

[Arvin]

It's still difficult for me to completely understand why some gay men talk with that stereotypical gay voice. One of my friends talks like a normal straight guy (masculine I guess you would say) when he's around just us guys, but when we go out to bars or parties he turns on the gay voice. Does the 'gay voice' come off naturally for people or something? I find it really hard to believe for some people (like my friend) and I feel like he has an on and off switch.

Sorry if any of that is offensive, lol

Edit: I guess most of that is kind of in relation to what Kuya said, maybe pressure from todays society?

[SamanosukeShiva]

Random thought, I just recently been watching rubicon and I've never see a gay character on TV that has more swag than the character Kale Ingram. Just sayin, eventhough it has nothing to do with the topic.

youtube.com/watch?v=7W3x-ZpMWGw

[Koul]

I think most gays are more girly than the typical man and a way for masc guys to mask that is to be over-the-top manly. I don't think the sterotypical fem gay is the norm though...

I don't think the norm should be over-the-top manliness compensation but also not prancing pony rainbow flag waving fem. Somewhere in the middle is probably ideal but most gays are insecure about their girly traits or are attention-whores so they be more girly to be funny or whatever. If I had to choose, I'd choose neither masc or fem guys because they both are irritating and retarded. /introvert

[Koul]

It's probably a comfort thing. A lot of gays kinda... I guess manipulate their voice in social settings to conform. Again, it's a mask. In order to not appear gay he talks "normal" and then when he's around his own people, he doesn't haveta try anymore. Probably just insecure about his tone. One of my gay friends does that. Crazy lisp, stresses his S's is just... totally fucking gay and outgoing in clubs/house parties but as soon as you take him to the mall or whatever he's the shyest person you've ever met.

if you wanna know what insecurity is, that's gay culture lol

:double post. sorry

[Kuya]

It's still difficult for me to completely understand why some gay men talk with that stereotypical gay voice. One of my friends talks like a normal straight guy (masculine I guess you would say) when he's around just us guys, but when we go out to bars or parties he turns on the gay voice. Does the 'gay voice' come off naturally for people or something? I find it really hard to believe for some people (like my friend) and I feel like he has an on and off switch.

Sorry if any of that is offensive, lol

Edit: I guess most of that is kind of in relation to what Kuya said, maybe pressure from todays society?

To put it in a funny way, our societies won't let gays be fabulous.

Also, scarily enough, when you think that gays are just women in men's bodies, Iran's policy makes sense. Over there, they let gays get sex changes (for free i think) because they think that homosexuals are just women in men's bodies. That's also why some think that there are no gays in Iran, they think that western gays are something else entirely from their "women in men's bodies".

[Rhinox]

Sounds a lot like what a woman would go through. Kuya might be on to something

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[EternityEnd]

Kuya is trolling, as always.

Femininity and masculinity are entirely man-made social constructs. Gay people may (may) have brains more similar to women—that doesn't mean that they would necessarily act in any way more "feminine," because femininity is man-made and differs wildly based on culture! Masculinity and femininity are not mutually exclusive, and one can have traits of both, because neither are a real thing. What one culture perceives as feminine, another could perceive as masculine—and both are correct, because they're different cultures. Thus, to matter-of-factly say that gays must act femininely is absurd, as what we perceive as feminine isn't the same worldwide.

In fact, I would go as far as to say that without the media forcing its idea of the gay stereotype down our throats, no one would act like that! Certainly, some guys would have voices which were less deep than others, or any manner of things, but those guys could very well be straight. I, for one, know many straight guys with high voices or lispy speech impediments. Do you know why? Because it relates in no way to sexuality. Sexuality is only what sex you're attracted to—Tonko illustrates this beautifully. To test this, go to any third world country without access to any sort of media which portrays gay people stereotypically. Now, look around. Do any of the young gay kids you meet (assuming you can verify they're gay, since it's taboo) overtly display any stereotypical behavior? The answer is almost always no—I know, I've been all around the world.

Face it, Kuya. Not everyone is a beautiful black woman like you. Your theory is all conjecture and nothing else. Sorry, but my voice is so low and deep that I couldn't make it high if I tried. I guess that means I'm not sexually attracted to men.

[Rhinox]

In the third world countries you talk about femininity in men be look down upon more then say.. here? Which would explain why you wouldn't see a lot of them there.

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[SamanosukeShiva]

Not in asia for sure, men there straight or gay wear shit like D&G, gucci, and shit. You wont be able to tell gay or straight just by looking at them. Honestly now if I go back there, and wear what I would here, Id look like a hick.

Case and point, wopa. LOL

[Kuya]

Kuya is trolling, as always.

Femininity and masculinity are entirely man-made social constructs. Gay people may (may) have brains more similar to women—that doesn't mean that they would necessarily act in any way more "feminine," because femininity is man-made and differs wildly based on culture! Masculinity and femininity are not mutually exclusive, and one can have traits of both, because neither are a real thing. What one culture perceives as feminine, another could perceive as masculine—and both are correct, because they're different cultures. Thus, to matter-of-factly say that gays must act femininely is absurd, as what we perceive as feminine isn't the same worldwide.

In fact, I would go as far as to say that without the media forcing its idea of the gay stereotype down our throats, no one would act like that! Certainly, some guys would have voices which were less deep than others, or any manner of things, but those guys could very well be straight. I, for one, know many straight guys with high voices or lispy speech impediments. Do you know why? Because it relates in no way to sexuality. Sexuality is only what sex you're attracted to—Tonko illustrates this beautifully. To test this, go to any third world country without access to any sort of media which portrays gay people stereotypically. Now, look around. Do any of the young gay kids you meet (assuming you can verify they're gay, since it's taboo) overtly display any stereotypical behavior? The answer is almost always no—I know, I've been all around the world.

Face it, Kuya. Not everyone is a beautiful black woman like you. Your theory is all conjecture and nothing else. Sorry, but my voice is so low and deep that I couldn't make it high if I tried. I guess that means I'm not sexually attracted to men.

You misconstrue social constructivism.

It is not masculine or feminine qualities that are social constructions, but their categorizations. Masculine qualities and feminine qualities exist, it's just the name and way that they are organized may vary.

Some people are more aggresive, others more talkative, others more whimsical. But these characteristics have a tendency to congregate on certain sexes and sexual orientations (and they also congregate in different sexes and sexual orientations in different magnitudes). Sure, there may be anamolies; nature is full of them, but that does not change the rule. The truth of the matter is, gays, having a feminized brain (that is, a brain structure similar to that of a woman, a human with ovaries and XX chromosomes) will portray feminine (that is characteristics associated with females) far more often and in a greater degree than, say, heterosexual men.

Some men may go against their inclinations, such as how some humans choose to be celibate, or choose to avoid sex with men, because the ability to go against our base instincts and desires is part of the human package, but that does not change the fact that their brains are organized in a female manner. Surely a homosexual should understand that because a man chooses to not act on his homosexual desires, he does not cease to be homosexual.

The reason why you insist against my science backed argument is that you view feminimity as something negative given the effect culture has had on you, eternityend. The preassures have had you internalize a rejection of your many feminine inclinations due to the structure of your brain. It has made you so irrational that you go as far as to call my post conjecture when it provided 3 quotes from scientific studies. So irrational that you confuse anomalies and exceptions as somehow disproving the rule (I am perfectly able to accept that Tonko might be an anomalie, science certainly does not reject exceptions and strange errors existing in nature).

So:

It is a fact that gays have brains similar to women, and that this brain structure creates inclinations towards behaviours and thoughts similar to women, even though gays may chose to act against their inclinations (such as traditionally closeted men do with their desire for other men). It is perfectly possible that the only part of tonko's brain that was feminized is the part that inclines sexual attraction, while every other part of his brain is similar to heterosexual men. Of course, this makes him a rare exception.

[Kuya]

Social constructivism certainly does not say that the characteristics composing the categories of female and male do not exist, but rather that the way they are valued, named and organized does vary by culture and is neither a transcendental given or a biological fact.

edit: they are organized, to some extent, on the basis of how males and females act/look, but not entirely

[Rhinox]

I'm trying to wrap my head around this. What other gays are there?

you never really addressed this Kuya.

[Kuya]

What do you mean?