FFXIV Flame Wars Thread: because ten threads is not enough threads

[Alderaan]

No one in their right mind expected a masterpiece. We did, however, expect a better game than XI.

I personally don't give a damn which companies name is on the product, i have no product loyalty. I want a good game and XIV is not that.

The horrible design choices, clearly evident from the dev Q&A's, are not subjective. "Hey, we know this will anger many many players, but we're going to do it anyway."

[Shaskoru]

It has always amused me that white knights think that they can't say anything supportive about SE without having the meme thrown in their face, so they adopted an even more close-minded mentality focusing on absolute behavior; however, CP, arguably one of the more unintelligent white knights, uses that as his ammo when he's frantically trying to think of new ways to proclaim the terribleness of the most successful MMORPG on the market.

[Siatdiat]

So many things go into making a video game. Doesn't matter if its an mmo or an offline. If it was easy, every game made would be great and we'd all be making them. It's ridiculous that you sit and argue like producing a game is so black and white.

And why bash Tanaka? He's just SE's mouth piece. He's not the one "ruining" your video game.

Aside from that, your feelings about the game are subjective anyway. Some people are enjoying their time on FFXIV even though the vocal minority on this board and others would have you believe otherwise. If anything, SE's problem is their own success. Peoples expectations of this company are unrealistically high. So when they don't release a masterpiece at the onset dickheaded blizzard trolls like Kaylia can circle jerk and make a big fuss.

Do you even know who Tanaka is? It doesn't seem like it. From the way you have typed here it sounds like you are mixing him up with Sundi, who WAS the community mouthpiece in 11 in the past. Tanaka most definitely is not "just SE's mouth piece".

I don't like FF14 or WoW, so how do I fit into your simple minded concept? What am I a fanboy of?

[CasualPlayer]

No one in their right mind expected a masterpiece. We did, however, expect a better game than XI.

I personally don't give a damn which companies name is on the product, i have no product loyalty. I want a good game and XIV is not that.

The horrible design choices, clearly evident from the dev Q&A's, are not subjective. "Hey, we know this will anger many many players, but we're going to do it anyway."

Oh people definitely expected a masterpiece.

You say you have no product loyalty, fine..... I never made any argument about anyone having any product loyalty other than Kaylia. What I said was that your opinion of this game is subjective. You think it sucks? Great. But you can't sit here and argue that everyone agrees with your opinion. That makes it subjective.

Also, you took that quote at the end completely out of context and you know it. Makes some good flame bait though I suppose.

It has always amused me that white knights think that they can't say anything supportive about SE without having the meme thrown in their face, so they adopted an even more close-minded mentality focusing on absolute behavior; however, CP, arguably one of the more unintelligent white knights, uses that as his ammo when he's frantically trying to think of new ways to proclaim the terribleness of the most successful MMORPG on the market.

Almost ignored your idiot rant but I will say one thing. If you thought this game would be complete on release your misguided. I've never defended the flaws of this game only the development of it.

Do you even know who Tanaka is? It doesn't seem like it. From the way you have typed here it sounds like you are mixing him up with Sundi, who WAS the community mouthpiece in 11 in the past. Tanaka most definitely is not "just SE's mouth piece".

I don't like FF14 or WoW, so how do I fit into your simple minded concept? What am I a fanboy of?

Your right I was confusing him with Sundi, my point still stands though. He's one person, albeit a head person, in a huge corporation. As far as development goes he's just the head of a very long snake.

Also, please point to where I alluded to anyone being a fanboy/girl. (Kaylia excluded) You don't have to be a fanboy to be delusional (I'm saying your delusional Siatdiat).

You, like most everyone else, doesn't understand the nature of the beast that is creating an mmo. Your expectations of this game were too high. Why your expectations were so high idk, there could be a multitude of reasons. The bottom line is that if you expected the game to be stellar at release your misguided. So far its following the exact pattern FFXI followed. Even down to the first few months being f2p.

So you tell me then, do you consider FFXI a successful mmo or not?

[CasualPlayer]

Inb4 Correction steps out of his glass house and says something retarded and irrelevant.

[ZarakiKujata]

So far its following the exact pattern FFXI followed. Even down to the first few months being f2p.

Proof of this? Don't recall this in the list of JP XI updates thats been circulating around.

[Shaskoru]

If you thought this game would be complete on release your misguided.

My misguided?

I've never defended the flaws of this game only the development of it.

The development decisions were flawed.

Your right I was confusing him with Sundi, my point still stands though. He's one person, albeit a head person, in a huge corporation. As far as development goes he's just the head of a very long snake.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hiromichi_Tanaka

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Game_producer

So you tell me then, do you consider FFXI a successful mmo or not?

It's not whether or not the game is successful but the reasons why the game is successful. FFXIV is trying to emulate development decisions that were arguably outdated nearly a decade ago.

[Alderaan]

Your expectations of this game were too high. Why your expectations were so high idk, there could be a multitude of reasons. The bottom line is that if you expected the game to be stellar at release your misguided. So far its following the exact pattern FFXI followed. Even down to the first few months being f2p.

So you tell me then, do you consider FFXI a successful mmo or not?

My expectations were that it was going to be unnecessary to follow the same route as XI due to all the knowledge gained from that time. I don't consider that high expectations.

In all honesty, my expectations should be high, otherwise what's the point in moving from an MMO i've put years into? Simply because it's new?

I also must admit that i'm a fan of companies trying to break the mold and doing something new, but not at the expense of what works.

[CasualPlayer]

Proof of this? Don't recall this in the list of JP XI updates thats been circulating around.

Go read them again then. Not going to argue this point or go pull up some 10yr old post since its an indisputable fact. FFXI was f2p when it first released in JP because the launch was "so bad"

My misguided?

Uh ohhhhh. Starting to think you're a retard instead of a troll. Try and keep up.

Yes you're misguided. No rational person who's lived long enough to experience a vanilla mmo should think this game would be great at release.

The development decisions were flawed.

The development decisions being flawed is personal opinion.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hiromichi_Tanaka

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Game_producer

You went and googled some shit I already admitted I was wrong about?

It's not whether or not the game is successful but the reasons why the game is successful. FFXIV is trying to emulate development decisions that were arguably outdated nearly a decade ago.

Wut?

[Lucavi]

I agree.

Also probably the father of brilliant ideas like "let's save money and combine the UI's for gamepads and keyboards."

I doubt it was to save money. More like "This is how we've always done it, just like Dragon Quest, so lets do it again!"

Tanaka is like Japan's Bush: "Stay the course."

[Siatdiat]

Your right I was confusing him with Sundi, my point still stands though. He's one person, albeit a head person, in a huge corporation. As far as development goes he's just the head of a very long snake.

Also, please point to where I alluded to anyone being a fanboy/girl. (Kaylia excluded) You don't have to be a fanboy to be delusional (I'm saying your delusional Siatdiat).

You, like most everyone else, doesn't understand the nature of the beast that is creating an mmo. Your expectations of this game were too high. Why your expectations were so high idk, there could be a multitude of reasons. The bottom line is that if you expected the game to be stellar at release your misguided. So far its following the exact pattern FFXI followed. Even down to the first few months being f2p.

So you tell me then, do you consider FFXI a successful mmo or not?

FFXI was the least time sensitive mmo in 2002 and also the first mmo that was playable on a console. It also had the luxury of coming to America after the game had something to it. I played 11 in the beginning with the push to be able to hit max level and do shit I was seeing on the internet, things as simple as getting my AF for blm or fighting shadowlord. its laughable in the long run, but it was a goal you were working towards, not just trying to hit max level and then wait months for content, or even longer for content that doesn't suck. Unfortunately, the aspects that helped 11 achieve success early on are not really being repeated here, at all.

1. It is no longer the most laid back mmo available. Casual players are not going to play multiple mmo generally, and are not going to play an mmo that is less casual than what they are already playing. Some will most likely try it if the game EVER gets some good press, but that is doubtful. When I say good press, I mean not just reviews but a game forum to not be plastered with player accounts of how horrible the game is.

2. It will not be the only mmo on a console, the new DC game is coming out on console, as well as a few others in the future. The DC game may be laughable, that is up to personal taste. However, I think those casual players will latch right onto it.

3. A lot of people 14 could attract, mainly 11 players, are basically saying fuck 14 I'm playing 11 still, especially in light of recent updates. The people who have quit 11 for 14 are the butthurt ones about having their 700 days playtime gear being obsoleted. Personally, my only qualm with current 11 is the magian trials are pretty much crap... but thats a whole different topic.

If you think that 14 has the power to be as successful in its current state or in any state it reasonably could improve into in the next year, YOU are the delusional one.

[Hyan]

It has always amused me that white knights think that they can't say anything supportive about SE without having the meme thrown in their face

Ohh yeah bro, you are the objective guys here, while we're just delusional conspiracy theorists. Thank you for this unbiased perspective.

[Meko]

I enjoy WoW enough to play it and play Cataclysm. I played XI for about 5 years and I really enjoyed it. Sadly, I can never go back to that sort of time sink because I have a family and all now but I would love something that resembles XI. I wanted a good mix of FFXI and WoW meaning something more open and free as far as time but also some depth to the content and story. Unfortunately, SE didn't move forward off of FFXI with FFXIV but rather they took a step backward. The UI for normal PC players (aside from FFXI players) is ridiculous, the leve system is bad at best, the mob placement (I know they are working on it/have updated), the lack of needed grouping or group rewards really has steered me away from the game for the time being. I'm hoping for something great this month but I'm also cynical based on what has been released so far.

[Hyan]

SE didn't move forward off of FFXI with FFXIV but rather they took a step backward.

Shit is situational

[Siatdiat]

I enjoy WoW enough to play it and play Cataclysm. I played XI for about 5 years and I really enjoyed it. Sadly, I can never go back to that sort of time sink because I have a family and all now but I would love something that resembles XI. I wanted a good mix of FFXI and WoW meaning something more open and free as far as time but also some depth to the content and story. Unfortunately, SE didn't move forward off of FFXI with FFXIV but rather they took a step backward. The UI for normal PC players (aside from FFXI players) is ridiculous, the leve system is bad at best, the mob placement (I know they are working on it/have updated), the lack of needed grouping or group rewards really has steered me away from the game for the time being. I'm hoping for something great this month but I'm also cynical based on what has been released so far.

Come on Meko, can't you see all the innovation SE has done with FF14? I'm sure they will improve the game at a similar rate to 11.

Wait... that is a reason to continue staying away from it, not a reason to continue with it...

[Hyan]

I'm sure they will improve the game at a similar rate to 11.

Nah, faster.

[CasualPlayer]

My expectations were that it was going to be unnecessary to follow the same route as XI due to all the knowledge gained from that time. I don't consider that high expectations.

In all honesty, my expectations should be high, otherwise what's the point in moving from an MMO i've put years into? Simply because it's new?

I also must admit that i'm a fan of companies trying to break the mold and doing something new, but not at the expense of what works.

Making this reply in a new post since you actually have a valid argument. Don't want it to get lost in the seeping vag's of Shakoru or Zariki.

Anyway, while I actually agree with what your saying at the same time I realize that those expectations result in the ultimate catch 22. You want SE to use what they've learned from past experience and release a game void of any of the pitfalls from their previous stake. From a gameplay perspective they largely have tried.

Biggest complaints about XI was the fact that it was incredibly prohibitive to get into it depending on when you started. Grouping was nearly impossible sometimes, economy was fucked to the point 1M gil was around 30 USD, HNM was reserved for botters etc. etc.
Well these problems have been addressed for better or worse. The game we have today is the result of all the aforementioned problems from XI.

From a development standpoint there is only so much leeway they have. They have to push a product to market by a certain date to make it financially solvent. Some elements of design have to be given up in order for this to work. It was things like UI and a complete market ward in this games case. But you could trade those things for something else and the end result would be the same, something has to give.

All this brings about the pitfall of your second point. You said you want the game/company to try new things. Rightfully so, every sequel should have some new aspects to it, or like you said why the hell would anyone stop playing the original. The problem is that who can really say what will work or not of its new? New ideas are largely trial and error.

What's worse and sad about this game is that a lot of the new ideas haven't been given enough time to be fleshed out due to the first point, hence the catch 22. Add to the fact SE has to try and cater to some of the most fickled, whiny, self serving people in order to maintain their game (yes, video game nerds are the worst audience to cater too) and you end up where we are today. 100pg flame threads.

[Lucavi]

Nah, faster.

Are we talking current-XI or mirroring the timeline of upgrades based on XI's vanilla state to its current state?

To do the former would be unfair given the already established nature of the game.
To do the latter would also be unfair given the fact that XIV has/had the advantage of having a predecessor in which to gather intelligence from.

The only fair way would be a brand new IP unrelated to the FF brand, and to watch the developmental pace from there.

[Hyan]

They should have done like ArenaNet and started testing "publicly" in small scale very early to the development, so they could have been done with the trial and error process before the bad ideas were developed further.

It's easy to see why they didn't think of it, especially with their strict company policy and their own Q&A team around, but it doesn't change the fact there was an alternative to this and they screwed up by not doing it the way it should have been done. Hindsight is fun but it's their inability to think that far that got them here. Now they seem to be doing the right thing, but the mistake has already happened.

Are we talking current-XI or mirroring the timeline of upgrades based on XI's vanilla state to its current state?

I don't know, does it matter if it's unfair or not?

[Lucavi]

They should have done like ArenaNet and started testing "publicly" in small scale very early to the development, so they could have been done with the trial and error process before the bad ideas were developed further.

If they said they did extensive testing, then we should hold them to that. We all know that sustained, direct tests with small amounts of the public over a long period of time works best, but SE chose to go this route, and we should hold them to their methods. The only thing that I'm truly surprised at is the absolute ineffectiveness of their in-house testing group. if these people weren't simply showing up to work each day to collect a pay check, then they seriously have balls of melted wax to not stand up and properly convince the designers that there were serious, crippling flaws.

If they did, and SE refused to listen, then all of this is justified, as it serves them right for ignoring everyone and releasing a shitty product. If they did not, then SE needs new testers; ones with the cajones to report problems. Lord knows the public isn't afraid to do the same thing. Now if only SE listened to us back then, or, even better, allowed its alpha testers to test far earlier than we actually did. Alpha and beta ran so close together; I remember when we were all surprised at how quickly beta rolled out after alpha.