FFXIV Flame Wars Thread: because ten threads is not enough threads

[Kaylia]

I play most RPG for the story, characters and environment (or setting). Sakaguchi, Takahashi, and Matsuno created some of my favorite universe, and for that, they have my respect. These guys were passionated by the game they were making, and you can tell from the interview.

Just enough to really not make Sakaguchi deserve the attention and status he has gotten.

Name me your top 5 director? I will use the same kind of fallacies to discredit any director.

[Hyan]

I don't think there's any director with similar status to Sakaguchi, even if they would deserve it. Oh wait, Hideo Kojima. Focus on story and characters, has fresh ideas and does not ignore gameplay. Sakaguchi is nothing compared to this guy. If there is someone who can justify setting and story over gameplay, it is him.

"All good ones left the boat years ago" though? Sakaguchi is, at best, at the same level as any other director and at worst, much worse (depending on what's important to you). Not that any RPG has a story or characters that make them worth playing just for the sake of it, especially for the price. When we were kids similar bullshit seemed much more interesting though.

[Kaylia]

In most FF's with world map the exploration was also very superficial. It's not like you could do anything outside very limited range of activities, to which it was less of a headache to just look at a FAQ than try to figure it out.

I never built my argument around the world map (the opposite of linearity isn't world map)...but if you insist .

[Kaylia]

I don't think there's any director with similar status to Sakaguchi, even if they would deserve it. Oh wait, Hideo Kojima. Focus on story and characters, has fresh ideas and does not ignore gameplay. Sakaguchi is nothing compared to this guy. If there is someone who can justify setting and story over gameplay, it is him.

"All good ones left the boat years ago" though? Sakaguchi is, at best, at the same level as any other director and at worst, much worse (depending on what's important to you). Not that any RPG has a story or characters that make them worth playing just for the sake of it, especially for the price. When we were kids similar bullshit seemed much more interesting though.

Just go suck Tanaka dick some more and let's call it a day.



[edit]
And kojima receive as much praise as any other director, if not more. You wont find many like him either.

[edit2]
And kojima is totally milking his franchise as well. You can't say otherwise.

[Hyan]

I never built my argument around the world map (the opposite of linearity isn't world map)...but if you insist .

A crucial part of "The Great Sakaguchi's" games were the world maps. I'm not surprised you didn't build your argument around world maps but I will criticize them, because they are the result of Sakaguchi's directing. If Sakaguchi was so good, why aren't you defending this amazing feature of his?

Just go suck Tanaka dick some more and let's call it a day.

Woah, next you'll probably start some QQfest about squaresoft, ff7 remake and the good old times.

"Because when he says old farts should be fired, he doesn't mean Tanaka- that just wouldn't make sense!"

What's even more hilarious at this point is the discussion we had not long ago about this same subject, in which we both agreed Tanaka sucks. Now you're just back to your old "let's spew some nonsense bullshit"-self.

And kojima receive as much praise as any other director, if not more. You wont find many like him either.

That's what I said, retard. Now, discredit him.

[Kaylia]

A crucial part of "The Great Sakaguchi's" games were the world maps. I'm not surprised you didn't build your argument around world maps but I will criticize them, because they are the result of Sakaguchi's directing. If Sakaguchi was so good, why aren't you defending this amazing feature of his?

Many people enjoy old school rpg, you don't. You have to give the guy some credit for creating a franchise liked by millions of players back in the day when the industry was vastly different from now. I mean, look at Kojima's first few games. Were they really more complex? Check Sakaguchi's last story now? Is he really stuck on the same gameplay? You can't say his games didn't evolve between FF1, FF9 and The Last Story. There was constant improvement, and in many case, he set up new standard for the rpg industry. No, the gameplay didn't change drastically, but that's not why these games were popular in the first place, and even less a reason to change something people enjoyed (polishing it, sure. changing it, no).



I'm not defending anything because having this partisan argument with you is retarded. You just systematically say "no" to anything like a 4 years old kid. If you can't think of a single positive point to a world map, you have to be very shallow and not look farther than your own dick.

Woah, next you'll probably start some QQfest about squaresoft, ff7 remake and the good old times.

"Because when he says old farts should be fired, he doesn't mean Tanaka- that just wouldn't make sense!"

What's even more hilarious at this point is the discussion we had not long ago about this same subject, in which we both agreed Tanaka sucks. Now you're just back to your old "let's spew some nonsense bullshit"-self.

Yeah, but you're comparing Sakaguchi to the worse (tanaka)

That's what I said, retard. Now, discredit him.

I asked for 5 director, you named 1.

And Kojima did milk his franchise just as much as Sakaguchi. He is doing so while reusing the same characters and everything. How original is that? If you want to use that shit on Sakaguchi, you have to blame kojima for the thing. He tried different thing, but most ended up being niche game more than real success (did he even write ZoE story, I remember reading otherwise).

There we go, a retarded argument just like your.


Kojima is passionated by his works, and you can tell. I respect his works just as much as I respect any director (or anyone) who show the same passion for what they are creating.

[Hyan]

Many people enjoy old school rpg, you don't. You have to give the guy some credit for creating a franchise liked by millions of players back in the day when the industry was vastly different from now. I mean, look at Kojima's first few games. Were they really more complex? Check Sakaguchi's last story now? Is he really stuck on the same gameplay?

Yes, he has finally started evolving. Took him what, 20 years or more? Not bad.

He created the franchise, that much credit he deserves. Only later on did he become so stagnant (Lost Odyssey gameplay in 2006? You've gotta be fucking kidding me.)

I'm not defending anything because having this partisan argument with you is retarded. You just systematically say "no" to anything like a 4 years old kids.

You are the last person to call me a 4 year old, haha.

Just go suck Tanaka dick some more and let's call it a day.

"I don't like this argument anymore, but u suk."

But yeah, I can definitely think a million negatives to a world map. Most shitty features are usually based on good ideas. You can find "something positive" in everything, so why does this matter? Shit is shit.

Yeah, but you're comparing Sakaguchi to the worse (tanaka)

So when I am saying that both directors suck, with Sakaguchi having a cult following while Tanaka is basically just hated, I am sucking his dick? OKAY BRO.

I asked for 5 director, you named 1.

I'm sorry, I can't think of any other overrated/famous directors than Kojima right now.

And besides, you said you will discredit any director.

If you want to use that shit on Sakaguchi, you have to blame kojima for the thing

Sure, makes sense. But how about those "fallacies" you speak of?

Either way Sakaguchi is worse, which was my point. Kojima is no perfect, but Sakaguchi is just fucking horrible. At least Kojima reuses good concepts and not shitty gameplay, and can actually evolve as a game designer.

Kojima is passionated by his works, and you can tell. I respect his works just as much as I respect any director (or anyone) who show the same passion for what they are creating.

So Tanaka is not passionate? Why do you not respect him? I usually tend to care more about what shit they come up with, but okay. You just make less and less sense.

[Kaylia]

Yes, he has finally started evolving. Took him what, 20 years or more? Not bad.

You see no difference between FF1, FF6 and FF9? Really?

But yeah, I can definitely think a million negatives to a world map. Most shitty features are usually based on good ideas. You can find "something positive" in everything, so why does this matter? Shit is shit.

Okay, list that millions thing now. I'm sure they are all reasonable.

I'm sorry, I can't think of any other overrated/famous directors than Kojima right now.

And besides, you said you will discredit any director.

I just did, twice. Go read the post.

[Kaylia]

Sure, makes sense. But how about those "fallacies" you speak of?

Because you're using vague standard based on your own fucking opinion to determine if a director is shitty, and you never list your standard anywhere.


It's easy to applies broad meaningless statement based on dubious criteria....but the point you're trying to convey is equally meaningless.

[edit]
I listed my criteria in the very first post (i want director that are sincere and passionated), and you disagree with something else that is entirely different.

[Hyan]

You see no difference between FF1, FF6 and FF9? Really?

FF6 made actually decent use of their world map, with the whole side character feature.

And.. uhh.. oh yes, lot more characters in general as well.

FF9 was in 3D...

Is there something in particular that I should notice here? The trance system?

Okay, list that millions thing now. I'm sure they are all reasonable.

There is no point in listing all of them. All I need to ask is "What's the fucking point?"

You know how great it is when your game clinges on the story to be considered "good", then you get shit like "go to town X somewhere" and are thrown to the ugly world map (compared to the well-made inside structures) without a fucking clue where to go. Maybe someone says "the place is in the East!". WHOOPDEDOO. Pacing of the story, ever heard of it? This is so much fun. You have one NPC in the entire fucking continent that can continue the story, maybe a sidequest somewhere out there and the rest of the world is there to piss you off. Brilliant. And the sidequests? I'm sure they must be very fun to figure out, but when you basically get no hint whatsoever as to where to go next... fuck yes!

I just did, twice. Go read the post.

Yeah, I noticed and replied.

I listed my criteria in the very first post (i want director that are sincere and passionated), and you disagree with something else that is entirely different.

How the fuck do you even determine whether director is passionate or not? Which directors are not passionate? What is the criteria to a "passionate director" and why does it not apply to, for example, Tanaka?

"broad meaningless statement based on dubious criteria"...

[Kaylia]

FF6 made actually decent use of their world map, with the whole side character feature.

And.. uhh.. oh yes, lot more characters in general as well.

FF9 was in 3D...

Is there something in particular that I should notice here? The trance system?

What's about the improvement on the script and storytelling? This is the biggest and most importants change, and you can see the evolution over the years. Characters were a lot fleshed out better, and the overall narration isn't nowhere as formulaic as it was during nes/snes era.

There is no point in listing all of them. All I need to ask is "What's the fucking point?"

You just said you could list one millions reason, so I'm expecting you to have a large amount of valid point.

You know how great it is when your game clinges on the story to be considered "good", then you get shit like "go to town X somewhere" and are thrown to the ugly world map (compared to the well-made inside structures) without a fucking clue where to go. Maybe someone says "the place is in the East!". WHOOPDEDOO. Pacing of the story, ever heard of it? This is so much fun. You have one NPC in the entire fucking continent that can continue the story, maybe a sidequest somewhere out there and the rest of the world is there to piss you off. Brilliant. And the sidequests? I'm sure they must be very fun to figure out, but when you basically get no hint whatsoever as to where to go next... fuck yes!

What a random mess of unrelated issues.

Let's go with what the players feel when they play the game.
Do you think people enjoyed getting the airship in FF10 as much as they did in FF6? Yes? No?
Do you think people prefer finding a secret dungeon/cave on a world map, or by taking the left branch of a path (like that shit in ffxii?)?
What's about these moment when you can see "late game" place early on the world map?...it can help build the hype for sure.


I'm pretty sure that a majority of players find the world map a more rewarding approach. The map design, when done properly can be a nice change of pace that add a light hearted touch to the game (chrono, tales game...etc). It also break the gameplay in different sequence that feel different, and usually allow the players for more freedom to go where he wants when he wants.


Is the pacing really killed by world map transition? In my case no, and considering how much critics ffxiii received for its linearity, I would say that no, it doesn't really matter to most players .

[Hyan]

What's about the improvement on the script and storytelling? This is the biggest and most importants change, and you can see the evolution over the years. Characters were a lot fleshed out better, and the overall narration isn't nowhere as formulaic as it was during nes/snes era.

Oh, I agree. Although I can't really define the difference in storytelling over 6 and 9, but I guess there is an improvement.

Do you think people enjoyed getting the airship in FF10 as much as they did in FF6? Yes? No?

I did.

Do you think people prfer finding a secret dungeon/cave on a world map, or by taking the left branch of a path (like that shit in ffxii?)?

Depends. The latter is ultimately better though, as you get this feeling of "adventure" as opposed to feeling of "where the fuck do I have to go next?"

Either way, like I said, world map concept was based on an idea that was probably good on paper. It's not a full disaster, just like the marketplace can make crafters profit better from the economy. What are you trying to prove? Shitty idea isn't as shitty as I make it seem, so now Sakaguchi is a great director?

I'm pretty sure that a majority of players find the world map a more rewarding approach. The map design, when done properly can be a nice change of pace that add a light hearted touch to the game (chrono, tales game...etc)

I'm not really saying that world map is always crap. For this kind of game, it just is. Maybe something like Oblivion is much better because there is not only 2 things you can do and you can actually get things done reasonably without the help of a FAQ. It's also more open-ended game in general, and not so focused on the narrative.

Is the pacing really killed by a transition to the world map? In my case no, and considering how much critics ffxiii received for its linearity, I would say that no, it doesn't really matter.

Do you think XIII didn't have better pacing of story because of it? For a genre and franchise where story is seen as important part, it worked. Too bad the story sucked, and made the linearity feel worse (because it was there to support the flow of the subpar story).

And when it came to sidequests, you had a larger open area to roam.. didn't even have to look at guides to get things done.

I'm not against the style XII did it, but I don't see why world map would make a story-focused genre like this better. In fact, it would make it worse.

[Grey Jorildyn]

So... Raise your hand if you don't care about any of this.

/

[Kaylia]

Oh, I agree. Although I can't really define the difference in storytelling over 6 and 9, but I guess there is an improvement.

You must have great time spamming X/A through the game.

I did.

Great, now you finally admit that all your bullshit is nothing but an opinion that can't be generalized

Depends. The latter is ultimately better though, as you get this feeling of "adventure" as opposed to feeling of "where the fuck do I have to go next?"

Either way, like I said, world map concept was based on an idea that was probably good on paper. It's not a full disaster, just like the marketplace can make crafters profit better from the economy. What are you trying to prove? Shitty idea isn't as shitty as I make it seem, so now Sakaguchi is a great director?

And then you go back to making broad statement. Nice.

Why do you insist that you're always lost on a world map? Are you seriously that fucking awful at the game to not be able to find the next town in less than 2 minutes (especially since every rpg i can think off have a map)?

But again, since you don't read any text, I might understand where you're coming from.

[Hyan]

You must have great time spamming X/A through the game.

Oh, it may not be because it's been such a long time since I have played these games that I do not simply remember all the subtle details and as far as the story in general goes, they both were just as..."good".

Great, now you finally admit that all your bullshit is nothing but an opinion that can't be generalized

Psh. I'm not denying that some people find more enjoyment in getting the airship after 30 hours of headache (in which case it's more like a relief). How do you expect me to argue against it with anything more than my opinion? Some people may enjoy it more, doesn't make it a good feature, objectively speaking. Some people enjoy when somebody shits on their chest. That example of yours was simply bad, nothing more.

Man, I'm so glad FFXI was so fucking painful as far as traveling goes, I really did like getting that airship pass in the end. An awesome feature, I'm glad Tanaka knew this all along.

Why do you insist that you're always lost on a world map? Are you seriously that fucking awful at the game to not be able to find the next town in less than 2 minutes (especially since every rpg i can think off have a map)?

Yes, at best only 2 minutes of my life are wasted. Great feature all in all.

[Kaylia]

Oh, it may not be because it's been such a long time since I have played these games that I do not simply remember all the subtle details and as far as the story in general goes, they both were just as..."good".

These characters do a very poor job at conveying their emotions. Dialogue are limited and generally awkward by normal human standard.


What a touching reunion

Spoiler: show

Edgar: Sabin!!!
Sabin: Big brother?
Locke: The brothers are reunited!
Terra: Younger... "brother?" At first glance I thought he was some body
builder who had strayed from his gym...
Sabin: Bodybuilder!?
Sabin: I'll... take that as a compliment...
Sabin: Anyway, brother, what are you doing here?
Edgar: We're on the way to the... Sabil mountains.
Sabin: To the Returner's hideout, no doubt?
Sabin: I've been watching from afar, hoping the world might regain some
sanity... At this rate, Figaro will be reduced to a puppet state.
Edgar: Our time to strike back has arrived. The Empire's going to pay for
what it has done...
Sabin: Think a "bear" like me could help you in your fight?
Edgar: You'd... join us? Sabin...!!
Sabin: I think Duncan would rest easier if he knew his disciple played a
part in bringing peace to the world.
Locke: Let's get going!

Scenes like this would be rewritten completely if they were done today. They reunited, talked about their past, and decided of what they are doing within 10 lines. Sure, they talk again later in the game, but most dialogue were simplified more than they should.

Translation did not help, but that's not everything.

Psh. I'm not denying that some people find more enjoyment in getting the airship after 30 hours of headache (in which case it's more like a relief). How do you expect me to argue against it with anything more than my opinion? Some people may enjoy it more, doesn't make it a good feature, objectively speaking. Some people enjoy when somebody shits on their chest. That example of yours was simply bad, nothing more.

Man, I'm so glad FFXI was so fucking painful as far as traveling goes, I really did like getting that airship pass in the end. An awesome feature, I'm glad Tanaka knew this all along.

No point arguing with you. You're stuck so hard on your own little opinion you can't rationally see thing from different perspective.

The way you twist everything and reach conclusion is simply ridiculous. You can say pretty much anything when you don't have the burden of the proof. It's very easy to make an argument go either way when you use so many undefined terms and base it on your own impression alone.


And seriously, I don't know many players who would take ffx/ffxiii linearity over a world map or a more open world like FFXII/Star ocean. Actually, you're the first person I met who defend the linearity of these two games (I've seen people minimize the importance, but say it's a good thing? that's new to me).

I can understand why someone like you who doesn't give shit about exploration prefer that sort of gameplay. I don't understand however how you think this opinion is generalized accross the gamers population.

[Hyan]

Characters do a very poor job at conveying their emotion. Dialogue are limited and generally awkward by normal human standard.

Oh, I know the dialogue is generally better, and already agreed on it. Maybe you meant something else by the storytelling part?

No point arguing with you. You're stuck so hard on your own little opinion you can't rationally see thing from different perspective.

Words, words, words. They mean nothing if you can't back them up. You might as well be saying "suck Tanaka's dick" and get your point better across. Although this is more like an adult's way of saying it.

But you still argue with me anyway. >_>

And seriously, I don't know many players who would take ffx/ffxiii linearity over a world map or a more open world like FFXII/Star ocean. Actually, you're the first person I met who defend the linearity of these two games (I've seen people minimize the importance, but say it's a good thing? that's new to me).

I know I'm pretty much alone with this, but numbers don't mean much. Millions of people would never even think about the possibility that their God doesn't exist.

I really want to see where they're coming from, but not often can they come up with good reasons for it. At least ones that would make up for the downsides.

I can understand why someone like you who doesn't give shit about exploration prefer that sort of gameplay. I don't understand however how you think this opinion is generalized accross the gamer population.

I simply think this type of game can't achieve a proper sort of exploration (ex. Elder Scrolls) without sacrificing the pace of storytelling at the same time. It's not like this is a "maybe it won't help but won't really hurt either" situation. There is clear disadvantage for a world map and it is in conflict with the general purpose of these games (linear storytelling, no real "sandbox" element).

[Kaylia]

I know I'm pretty much alone with this, but numbers don't mean much.

Yet, you're using your opinion to generalize the situation. You do this every goddamn time and it's alienating.

Being alone with an opinion doesn't make it wrong or right. It's okay to admit differents people have different priorities, and that none are better or worse when it's over something trivial (unlike shitting on people which is not quite healthy by most standard).

"I like story and exploration"
"I like battle system and linearity because it can mean faster pacing".
So fucking what? Do you really think one side is worth arguing over? Not only is it impossible to reach an agreement in this kind of situation where we start with differents premise, it's also meaningless.

I like the game.
No, I dislike it.
No,I like it

That's not the kind of argument I want to have, but with you, it always goes back to such primitive debate. If you want to discredit my opinion, find a loop hole in my criteria, or try to convince me that your criteria are better (not that you conclusion is)



You originally tried to demonstrate that Sakaguchi is a terrible director, and to do this, you brought the point that world maps are terrible. This kind of reasoning make absolutely no sense. Why are you even arguing that world map suck if you know it's based entirely on an opinion? You don't need another opinion to validate your first opinion...that's kinda redundant and pointless.

Very early in the discusion, I stated what I want to see from a game director, and gave you a list of who I liked. What did you do? You didn't state your opinion on the matter, you said I was wrong, and you tried to argue your point using "technical data" (read this: your opinion on very specific gameplay element).

But you still argue with me anyway. >_>

I'm not. I'm trying to make you realize you have a terrible approach in opinion debate.

[Kaylia]

I simply think this type of game can't achieve a proper sort of exploration (ex. Elder Scrolls) without sacrificing the pace of storytelling at the same time. It's not like this is a "maybe it won't help but won't really hurt either" situation. There is clear disadvantage for a world map and it is in conflict with the general purpose of these games (linear storytelling, no real "sandbox" element).

ff6-9, chrono trigger, Tales games., star ocean...etc.

Do you really think these game would be better (or as good) if they were linear like FFXIII?

Maybe I'm wrong, but I'm under the impression that most people can go back to the main story without any issue after doing side-story/bonus content.

[Hyan]

This is what I said

I simply think this type of game can't achieve a proper sort of exploration (ex. Elder Scrolls) without sacrificing the pace of storytelling at the same time. It's not like this is a "maybe it won't help but won't really hurt either" situation. There is clear disadvantage for a world map and it is in conflict with the general purpose of these games (linear storytelling, no real "sandbox" element).

And I don't think this is an opinion of mine, but the general situation. The pacing of story is broken with world map, and in a linear story-driven game, this is a bad thing. For the downside, you don't get enough good sides to make it worth it.

I'm not. I'm trying to make you realize you have a terrible approach when it come to dealing with opinion.

But then again, when it comes to points above you never seem to respond to them, you just ignore them. You only pick things I generalize as an opinion, which is fine to do, but why does it end there?

"I like story and exploration"

I demonstrated how they are in conflict. If you like exploration, story suffers. Story is an important part of the franchise, if not the most important. This isn't trivial.

ff6-9, chrono trigger, Tales games., star ocean...etc.

Do you really think these game would be better (or as good) if they were linear like FFXIII?

As XIII demonstrated, you need a decent story to make it worth it. I don't think SO or Tales games really apply here.

As for ff6-9 and chrono, hard to speculate. I think they would have even more amazing stories than they have now, that's for sure.

I think LO would have been much better as a linear experience though. The world map shit really broke the pacing too much.