FFXIV Flame Wars Thread: because ten threads is not enough threads

[Charismatic]

Just thought I'd mention that I didn't grind at all in the traditional sense, I just made sure to hit up behest when I could and I hit fatigue pre-20.
If that doesn't happen post-20 then I doubt I'll see it much in the future.

[Murureru]

is chainspell fkin broke or what? i thought there would be some sort of duration at least?

5 min cooldown for an instant raise!? i can't see it being used for anything else

[Enygma55]

It's not broken. It only last for 1 spell. No cost, No cooldown, and no cast time. Use it with spells like sleep or Siphen MP on 3-4 mobs can be instant 600 MP back. Can be useful in panic situations. Free your mind!

[Elrina]

Thank God no one has went that far yet.

Sarcasm? Really?

Just how selfish can you be? That is seriously disappointing.

That's the nice way of saying "scrapped entirely", in PR terms. You want the impossible and at the same time lie to yourself thinking that you're somehow not selfish. Yet you realize that what I'm saying is true, and your choice of words doesn't change that fact.

And this falls down to, again, subjective opinion. I could explain why I would prefer one over the other to be focused on first, even if it caused the other to be delayed or dropped, but I don't want to argue the specific subject anymore, and nobody else wants to hear it. The difference between us is that I would just want the other to hold a lower priority, not be scrapped entirely. If that's the end result, that isn't my fault nor my desire, but intent is what it's all about.

That is what I said, in proper context. And no, it's not PR terms. Whatever you want to call me, it's honest, and how I feel. I don't think it's impossible, I think that they're willing and able to overhaul as much as they need to right now, and I don't think it's a matter of having to choose, just prioritize. I don't think "jumping" is nearly as time consuming an issue as you seem to believe, the majority of it is going to be removing all the invisible walls and obstacles, which is something everyone wants anyway. I can respect people who don't want it for a variety of reasons, including because it wasn't designed with it in mind in the first place, that they would do a bad job with it, or that they don't think it fits into an FF world, as a few examples.

Am I idealistic, perhaps, sure. But it doesn't change the fact that my intent differs from your own, and it's reflected in my arguments. I explain my viewpoint as best I can, and don't try to degrade people who disagree with me simply because they disagree.

[Hyan]

Sarcasm? Really?

Yep, it's how I get my point across. It's not just for flavor as you seem to think. I don't think you realize that I meant what I said there too.

Whatever you want to call me, it's honest, and how I feel.

Today you feel rather hypocritic. But honest it is, so I won't judge!

Hypocritic and naive, actually. Hypocritic, naive, and ignorant. "Oh you just remove the walls and blim! the Z-axis pops out of nowhere".

I don't try to degrade people who disagree with me simply because they disagree.

Nope, better do it only when they're wrong. But an idealist doesn't get that privilege. Only reality matters, not the castles in the air.

[Elrina]

Hypocritical? Being honest about what you think doesn't make it okay to act like a complete prick towards the people who disagree with you. It's called integrity.

Do I think the z-axis will pop out of nowhere? Hell no, of course I don't, but it seems like they've already brought it to a point where they're examining how it will work inside of the game, so from this point on, the amount of additional work it will require is less than if they had to start from scratch. It's implementation is waiting on favorable results, and if they're unfavorable and it doesn't work well inside of the game it won't get added. I realize, even from now, it will be a fair amount of work. But I don't think it will be so much work, and so much time and money spent, that it will completely preclude from other major necessary additions and changes.

And I don't do it just when they're "wrong" either. It took me a while before I got frustrated enough with you treating people like chafe to actually tell you that you should stop acting like a dick.

[Hyan]

Hypocritical?

You know that your idealistic expectations are not going to work in reality. You know that their resources are limited, and you know that everyone is not going to get everything. You know that things are not going to continue as they are forever. You know that some things are going to get scrapped along the way, not just "held in lower priority for the time being".

Yet you twist words so that they come off as less truthful than they actually are, to make you feel like you're not selfish. In the back of your mind you know this too. You like to call it "being idealist", when it is nothing but hypocritic. If you were ignorant and naive enough this would be fine, but you do know how it is. You just don't want to accept it. You want to think that it isn't so. But you are not stupid.

Hell no, of course I don't, but it seems like they've already brought it to a point where they're examining how it will work inside of the game

Meaning nothing has been done except on the concept stage.

But I don't think it will be so much work

All this is based on jack shit. Sorry to tell you that.

It took me a while before I got frustrated enough with you treating people like chafe to actually tell you that you should stop acting like a dick.

This is not allakhazam or Core. If it frustrates you, deal with it. This is what makes BG superior. No bitching about how you were so mean to the other guy for being an idiot. If I say retarded things, people here will surely point it out for me. And I will return the favor.

[Elrina]

You know that your idealistic expectations are not going to work in reality. You know that their resources are limited, and you know that everyone is not going to get everything. You know that things are not going to continue as they are forever. You know that some things are going to get scrapped along the way, not just "held in lower priority for the time being".

Yet you twist words so that they come off as less truthful than they actually are, to make you feel like you're not selfish. In the back of your mind you know this too. You like to call it "being idealist", when it is nothing but hypocritic. If you were ignorant and naive enough this would be fine, but you do know how it is. You just don't want to accept it. You want to think that it isn't so. But you are not stupid.

I don't know how much it costs them to do what they do, and what each of these features and implementing them costs. I also have no idea how much money they have budgeted into the game, and what kind of cost/balance ratio they have to maintain. What I do know is that they are one of the largest worldwide companies making video games today, and this is probably what they're hoping to be their single biggest revenue source over the next decade. I know that they don't want it to fail, and are going to do whatever they can to prevent it from doing so.

Straight up, even if I said I wanted jumping instead of any other single specific feature, it still wouldn't change a thing. Because I would just be expressing my opinion, my preference, between potential features. The difference between us, what makes me honest, and not a hypocrite, is that there are no other features that they might implement that I don't want them to simply because it would prevent jumping from getting in there.

I'll quote what a friend of mine on MSN said. I thought it was a pretty good way of expressing it.

Most reasonable human beings, when they want something, simply think something along the lines of "gee I sure hope I get this"
Elrina's Friend says (7:34 AM)
Hyan, however, seems to think more like "gee I sure hope I get this, AND FUCK ANYONE WHO GETS IN THE WAY"
Elrina's Friend says (7:36 AM)
To go so far as *resent* people because they wish for something *he* deems "incorrect" is stupidy beyond what my vocabulary can describe

I'm not twisting words, I'm capable of choosing to not want something myself so bad that I'm willing to desire what someone else wants to get screwed just so that I get it. I want them to add jumping, however silly or stupid of a feature most people might think it is, even if they want it too. But that doesn't mean I want them to decide to leave combat as it is to do it, or not put in an AH, or not do something else probably vital to saving the game. Acting as if that's the choice I'm making just by wanting it is what's stupid.

Meaning nothing has been done except on the concept stage.

I was thinking it meant more that they were implementing the z-axis on their side to actually test how they would make it function in-game, and to see how they would have to tweak it to balance. Which is around where they're at with it right now. And if they decide to not put it in, because they don't like how they would have to change or alter things in order to, or just don't feel that it works well in their tests, then they won't. I got the impression that they were past the concept stage, and closer to the actual testing phase, to determine whether or not they wanted to put it in.

This is not allakhazam or Core. If it frustrates you, deal with it. This is what makes BG superior. No bitching about how you were so mean to the other guy for being an idiot. If I say retarded things, people here will surely point it out for me. And I will return the favor.

Yeah, it's really not, and I realize that. And I can deal with it. The reason I got frustrated and annoyed with you is that you seem to take it to an extreme, more than just about anybody else I see post. You try to pretend you're a voice of reason, or like you're an adult talking down to children, when really you're just being an ass on a fairly consistent basis, and that doesn't make BG superior. Pointing out when somebody is being stupid is one thing, trying to improve the overall quality of forum content another, but being a general dick on a fairly constant basis to anybody that disagrees with you (which, if you haven't noticed, tends to be more people than not most of the time) in a part of the forum that lacks real moderation (and deservedly so, I wouldn't expect them to overly waste their time moderating this bullshit) is just being an asshole, and if you expect to actually have merit given to shit you say then it doesn't help your cause.

[Hyan]

I know that they don't want it to fail, and are going to do whatever they can to prevent it from doing so.

And you know what else they know? That they don't have to fix nor overhaul everything to prevent it from failing. They did not have to do it in XI (so they didn't), and they won't do it here.

Because I would just be expressing my opinion

Your selfish opinion indeed.

gee I sure hope I get this, AND FUCK ANYONE WHO GETS IN THE WAY"

Hahaha, that's good. I don't know where it came from though. I've been talking about the third group, not the group that wants X feature nor the one that doesn't. This isn't about me.

Acting as if that's the choice I'm making just by wanting it is what's stupid.

It is, but it doesn't seem like you understand this. "You want X without giving up Y and Z", which means that you are just dumb because you know it doesn't work that way. And even if you do, you make up excuses like "it doesn't cost that much, it's not that much work, they are teh largest vidya company in the universe so they can keep throwing money at the game indefinitely" to justify your denial.

I got the impression that they were past the concept stage

They should be able to determine everything that is needed during the concept stage. They can't afford wasting resources on something they won't be able to do at this point. Of course they still might, but that would be awfully stupid of them. They can't afford sidesteps. Talking about these things in concept is a lot less work done than the actual developing part.

You try to pretend you're a voice of reason, or like you're an adult talking down to children, when really you're just being an ass on a fairly consistent basis

Well hey, I'm not trying to pretend anything. I'm an ass to those who deserve it, but I'll rather argue constructively than not. I've just learned that it's not worth the hassle. Sometimes I look at your posts thinking why you even bother replying to some of these people. Your well-constructed paragraphs and good points are going to waste and all I can do is shake my head. People here are not always looking for an argument, and knowing who is and who isn't is what saves me time. It's too bad I can't just keep my mouth shut though, so if someone pisses me off you'll see me reply anyway. Just not always with anything constructive, as it's not worth it.

[Elrina]

And you know what else they know? That they don't have to fix nor overhaul everything to prevent it from failing. They did not have to do it in XI (so they didn't), and they won't do it here.

I think it's a different ballgame this time than it was in XI, and I think they've realized that. But that's my view of it, I could be wrong.

Your selfish opinion indeed.

Lets just agree to disagree here. I feel I've adequately explained my argument here well enough that I don't need to continue doing so.

Hahaha, that's good. I don't know where it came from though. I've been talking about the third group, not the group that wants X feature nor the one that doesn't. This isn't about me.

But that was the point, it wasn't necessarily about anybody in any one of the three groups. It was just a general concept that meant that you went through the same initial process as everyone else, "Gee, I sure hope I get this", but unlike most other people you followed it up with "And I hope nobody else gets anything I don't want that will slow it down from being added". The point being that you not only considered your own desired features implemented, but that nobody should get anything you didn't specifically also want.

It is, but it doesn't seem like you understand this. "You want X without giving up Y and Z", which means that you are just dumb because you know it doesn't work that way. And even if you do, you make up excuses like "it doesn't cost that much, it's not that much work, they are teh largest vidya company in the universe so they can keep throwing money at the game indefinitely" to justify your denial.

I don't think they can throw money at it indefinitely, but I also don't know how much they can and are. Do you? Do you know what their budget is, what each of those proposed features on that list costs to implement on a case by case basis, how much time in development they would take? Not a guess, do you know? Yeah, neither do I. I also firmly believe that they decided on specific major features to incorporate, or potentially incorporate, and that they've got the resources to do all of them and more, since they came right out and said they did.

It's not like I'm throwing it out as an "I hope they do this" anymore, like before Yoshida's letter. It's on the list, meaning that even if it has a lesser priority than the rest, which I'd be plenty fine with, it's still there and they've still got the ability to add it without having to nix anything else on there, nor other things they have in mind that aren't already on the list.

They should be able to determine everything that is needed during the concept stage. They can't afford wasting resources on something they won't be able to do at this point. Of course they still might, but that would be awfully stupid of them. They can't afford sidesteps. Talking about these things in concept is a lot less work done than the actual developing part.

I won't argue this. I don't know how the process actually works, beyond a google search and an educated guess. It's entirely possible they're able to. But the way it cited "Implementation upon favorable results of examination" made me seem like they were doing more than just sitting around and discussing it, something which I imagine they were doing extensively before adding it to a list that they knew was going to be exclaimed over by everyone still paying attention to the game. But again, lacking any first hand knowledge, I won't argue this point further.

Well hey, I'm not trying to pretend anything. I'm an ass to those who deserve it, but I'll rather argue constructively than not. I've just learned that it's not worth the hassle. Sometimes I look at your posts thinking why you even bother replying to some of these people. Your well-constructed paragraphs and good points are going to waste and all I can do is shake my head. People here are not always looking for an argument, and knowing who is and who isn't is what saves me time. It's too bad I can't just keep my mouth shut though, so if someone pisses me off you'll see me reply anyway. Just not always with anything constructive, as it's not worth it.

I don't know man. It took me a lot of nerve to start posting here at all. Like, hour long sessions of deciding exactly why and when to post something. I'm a lot more comfortable with it now than I was, but I still get nervous as hell posting outside of the XIV section, and even inside of it sometimes. I guess I just feel like if I can't say something constructive, or something that I feel is worth saying, that I shouldn't bother. There are probably some exceptions to that, now that I'm a little more comfortable posting in this section at least, but still. I like to treat everyone's opinions as worth reading, worth giving respect to, otherwise I probably wouldn't bother reading the forums at all and definitely wouldn't bother posting.

It's one of the reasons I only read BG, and don't take the time to read Core or ZAM or where ever else, just takes more time than I have and care to spend.


Edit: Also, and you probably won't catch this edit till after you make your reply, but I've been up all night on EST time and I'm falling asleep in my chair, so after my next post I'm probably going to cut out.

[Hyan]

I think it's a different ballgame this time than it was in XI, and I think they've realized that.

Right now it is.

"And I hope nobody else gets anything I don't want that will slow it down from being added"

I am not an idealist. I don't think in PR speak.

The point being that you not only considered your own desired features implemented, but that nobody would get anything you didn't specifically also want.

And I expect everyone else to do the same. Whether they realize and/or deny it or not.

Do you?

No, which is exactly why I don't think anything is "such a simple addition that won't take much resources at all".

You on the other hand do, which does nothing but insult the developers that worked their asses off for a feature you thought "is something you can make in a weekend by snapping your fingers". Haha, exaggerated a bit there. Whoops.

they've still got the ability to add it without having to nix anything else on there

There's not that much stuff in there, honestly speaking..

"Implementation upon favorable results of examination"

I think that's what they'll do after the "current task" in the list is done. If the results are favorable, they'll get to it. But are they favorable? They don't say... which I think means they don't know. But if it's favorable, it'll come. I could guess wrong too.

I guess I just feel like if I can't say something constructive, or something that I feel is worth saying, that I shouldn't bother.

That's a good attitude. I say stuff that isn't worth saying all the time, as I can't seem to be able to shut the hell up if something annoys me. But often enough you say it all for nothing. The complaint thread specifically is the ultimate trolling thread, I can't take anything said there too seriously. There really isn't that many worthwhile opinions over here in the end. More than in Core and ZAM though. Idiocy is more acceptable over there.

Also, keep posting. It's nice reading your posts either way.

[Elrina]

I am not an idealist. I don't think in PR speak.

And I expect everyone else to do the same. Whether they realize and/or deny it or not.

So you're a pragmatist, which is why you expect everyone else to do the same. I guess I just disagree, and I'm pretty sure you can blame (at least in part) heavily reading fantasy fiction since I was like, 7. I'm one of those that always related to the main protagonist best, all those ideals spoiled me. I'm not even remotely perfect, but, as I'm sure my friends could tell you, I've always been something of an idealist. Yes, I actually believe all that shit.

No, which is exactly why I don't think anything is "such a simple addition that won't take much resources at all".

You on the other hand do, which does nothing but insult the developers that worked their asses off for a feature you thought "is something you can make in a weekend by snapping your fingers". Haha, exaggerated a bit there. Whoops.

I know they're working their asses off, and I know it probably isn't the fault of most of them. I get frustrated as hell with Tanaka, and possibly undeservedly, mainly because I attribute to him all the slow, unresponsive, uncaring bullshit over all the years I played XI. There were a ton of issues I had with that game, it was very love and hate it for years, and I probably would have left long before I did if it weren't for the people I played with. Then, leading into XIV, it seemed like it was going to be the same stupid shit all over again, despite all the progress XI made and all the other MMOs have shown. As if XIV was on it's own little island where his ideas could foster with no consequence. I think jumping, and proper character mobility, are things that should have been planned and designed way before we ever saw the game. Regardless, this is just a paragraph of explanation, not argument.

I don't think jumping is necessarily a simple addition that won't take many resources, I was just reading into it that it may not take as much as you seemed to make out. Is it possible? Yeah, I sure as hell don't know. Maybe it's this enormous thing going on in the background and it's just this one thing that will take more time than any other single feature, I don't fucking know.

I just know that it's something I'd like to see, I think that it could lend a lot of potential into later zones and expansions, and that implementing it now could both solve the terrain issues and lead into a lot greater character mobility while ensuring they actually plan ahead for it in those later areas. It's not just that I see it as the jumping by itself. And again, lot of work, I realize other things will ultimately be prioritized less for it no matter when they focus on the feature. I just happen to believe that if they do it will ultimately be for the better, and the type of major change to the flow and feel of the game that will both get people's attention that aren't playing right now and will be fun and enjoyable to have, even if plenty of people feel it's superficial.

There's not that much stuff in there, honestly speaking..

I don't know, some of it admittedly seems like it's being made out to be more than it is. But upon reflection, it seems like maybe some of the things mentioned could portend larger changes. Who knows? The simple comments about potentially shuffling class abilities some combined with potentially changing the class names, they could be planning a major overhaul of the entire armoury and leveling/stat systems. Some of that stuff could be huge, and then again, possibly not so huge, we'll just have to wait to see till it actually starts getting added to the game.

I think that's what they'll do after the "current task" in the list is done. If the results are favorable, they'll get to it. But are they favorable? They don't say... which I think means they don't know. But if it's favorable, it'll come. I could guess wrong too.

Which is exactly why I was thinking they were testing somehow, not just talking. I would imagine they would have discussed the possibility of whether or not to add this in extensively behind the scenes, and how it would be done, before just throwing it into that list on the Lodestone. Again, I could easily be wrong, I don't know what the hell favorable conditions means anymore than you do. I guess we'll just see whatever the hell they end up doing, regardless.

That's a good attitude. I say stuff that isn't worth saying all the time, as I can't seem to be able to shut the hell up if something annoys me. But often enough you say it all for nothing. The complaint thread specifically is the ultimate trolling thread, I can't take anything said there too seriously. There really isn't that many worthwhile opinions over here in the end. More than in Core and ZAM though. Idiocy is more acceptable over there.

Also, keep posting. It's nice reading your posts either way.

Thanks, I guess. I know sometimes it's for nothing, but I can't help but just chalk that up to being the nature of the forum. I see other people post stuff sometimes in various threads that it seems nobody else pays any attention to as well, but that I'll occasionally sit and consider and wonder why nobody replied to it. I like trying to understand where people are coming from, whether I agree or not, I guess.

Anyway, I need some sleep. I'll be back eventually, respond again to whatever then.

[Apelila]

I'm confused and don't want to read through a wall of text, what's the argument?

Also there hasn't been a post on this board outside of this thread since the 10th.

El oh El.

[Lucavi]

Hyan: If people don't agree with me, they're stupid.

Elrina: That's not true.

Hyan: Yes it is. I troll people because they are stupid. Nobody knows how I feel about this game because I constantly shift between criticism and support in order to troll people and mask my intentions.

Elrina: You're mean.

Hyan: I know.


That's the general gist of it.

[blythe]

Seriously I tried to read back a few pages in the other thread... and still couldn't figure out what the fuck either of them were actually arguing about to begin with.

[notorious bum]

The new slogan for this game:

"You live. You learn. And then you get Luvs."

Whiney trolling for the last 2 pages, arguing about nothing, basically.

[Charismatic]

I constantly shift between criticism of additional features to the game (and content that the players want) and support in order to troll people and mask my intentions.

ftfy.
Pay close attention, he never really points out any flaws with the game as is (lol) but always complains about any attempt to fix things or add content that isn't just a quest or something. Usually just berating someone for wanting pretty much any feature that isn't in the game currently.

Best part is, even through all of this, he will claim to think the game launched just as bad as the rest of us think it did. Shit doesn't compute.

[Lucavi]

Apparently, that's all a part of his master trolling technique. I didn't even think trolling was allowed outside of this particular thread. We can clearly see that the mods have all but given up on XIV, and on a forum originally dedicated to XI.

[blythe]

At this point I find this forum infinitely more entertaining than the game itself, so I say keep it up.

[Hyan]

Nobody knows how I feel

Q_Q

But okay seriously speaking, all that trolling in the news thread was fun, but if I could choose I wouldn't bother with implementing jumping at this stage and wouldn't really focus on quests for the content neither. Also class names. But overall the smorgasbord of adjustments seem good so all the bitching was for shit's n giggles.

Pay close attention, he never really points out any flaws with the game as is (lol)

This is also rather interesting, but it's not like other people don't do it already, which means I don't have to. Also my definition of flaw can be entirely different.

People say the UI speed is fine? Fucking retards. It's still unacceptable. There!