FFXIV Flame Wars Thread: because ten threads is not enough threads

[Hyan]

Yes of course, I see that it is a quite common trend in the MMO industry- but that doesn't change my opinion that it is quite useless trend in the end, and wouldn't really work for Square as well as it might work for the others.

XIV team might get a reputation for not answering to it's players with more than, y'know, actual changes to the game, but more important than that (much more in fact) is to show us that they are listening- and this does not mean they need to do any of the things described above. They simply have to reflect player's concerns in the changes that happen in-game. That is a universal language everyone will understand, with or without translators. It is also not fluff.

Elcura seems to have got it right.

I kinda like surprises.

I find their unpredictability quite appealing. And if there comes a point when I will no longer agree with the direction they're taking the game, quitting shouldn't be too hard- if you haven't gotten addicted, which is quite easily avoidable in the end.

I always listen to my pals who've played WoW for months or years- when it gets boring, they simply do not play anymore. No Blackheartx drama queen posts on the forums or anything of the sort- they just stop playing. That is how it should be.

[Elrina]

Like I said, if they go into details that's what they'll have to do. And it has worked for them for the past 8 years, what is there to worry about?

The problem is, it isn't. They're professionals, and I expect that they have some level of expertise and qualifications to deserve to be in the positions they're in. When they patch things, they should be able to make statements to us like "We feel this is off, we're going to try to balance it this way". They should be able to make several of those statements at once, about each of the jobs/classes they plan on adjusting, and have a reasonably high expectation of making that exact change.

And they should be making that change within a reasonable amount of time, depending on the nature of the update information. (i.e. posting about an upcoming version update at an already scheduled time vs correcting badly balanced issues implemented in an update within a few days of that update) They shouldn't need to change their mind very often. If they do, then they are doing something wrong.

Using that puppetmaster skill rank as an example, why would they arbitrarily decide to push it to an A? It sounds like they didn't really think it through very well, and just threw that out there, and it wasn't until they actually did have some kind of internal discussion that it was determined it was too high. Those internal discussions shouldn't take very long to put together. If they see something isn't working, they should immediately be discussing how to fix it, what they need to balance it against, and then giving us some kind of basic idea of what's going on so that we aren't left in the dark (for weeks/months/years) wondering why they broke shit and when they might decide to fix it. If they were informing us of what they saw as problems within a reasonable amount of time, and actually listening to our feedback, then they would realize that shit is broken and we aren't happy with it before they let it sit for years untouched because they don't happen to see the issue.

FFXI being a game we all (or most) enjoyed for many years does not excuse the fact that it had a lot of faults that were absolutely not necessary.

Edit:

IV team might get a reputation for not answering to it's players with more than, y'know, actual changes to the game, but more important than that (much more in fact) is to show us that they are listening- and this does not mean they need to do any of the things described above. They simply have to reflect player's concerns in the changes that happen in-game. That is a universal language everyone will understand, with or without translators. It is also not fluff.

The problem with this is what I stated above. They have never done it before. It's just like their lack of communication, they don't show us they're listening. They don't make changes based on feedback. Or rarely, and often in a "twist" to the way they were receiving the feedback, turning it into something we didn't want at all. If they're going to start changing policies, it's better to change both at once, otherwise how are we to trust, in any capacity, that they've changed their tune in the way it matters, actually listening and updating the game appropriately?

[Dooom]

All that matters, communication or not, is if they're at least listening to the feedback and changing stuff appropriately.

Agreed; but again, while the game is so new and taking such a battering both from players and professional reviewers, I think it'd help all involved if the team occasionally said "we know XYZ isn't working out for players, we're looking into it". People pick up on such things as random SP gains and menu lag as complaints, and I think people would be more forgiving if we were told they were looking into fixing them, rather than leaving us scratching our heads going "is it a bug? is it intentional? is my computer not up to standard?" and so on.

[BadKarma]

Maybe 10 years ago but not many people can go back and put up with that shit again I know I can't. XI had one of the funniest class systems I've played in an MMO. I'd probably even go on to say it's better than XIV's.

If I could get my character back I would.

[Hyan]

The problem is, it isn't. They're professionals, and I expect that they have some level of expertise and qualifications to deserve to be in the positions they're in. When they patch things, they should be able to make statements to us like "We feel this is off, we're going to try to balance it this way". They should be able to make several of those statements at once, about each of the jobs/classes they plan on adjusting, and have a reasonably high expectation of making that exact change.

Haven't they? Long term plans I could understand (even if it is still out of game fluff), but that's what they are already doing.. what exactly is the issue here?

Using that puppetmaster skill rank as an example, why would they arbitrarily decide to push it to an A? It sounds like they didn't really think it through very well, and just threw that out there, and it wasn't until they actually did have some kind of internal discussion that it was determined it was too high. Those internal discussions shouldn't take very long to put together. If they see something isn't working, they should immediately be discussing how to fix it, what they need to balance it against, and then giving us some kind of basic idea of what's going on so that we aren't left in the dark (for weeks/months/years) wondering why they broke shit and when they might decide to fix it. If they were informing us of what they saw as problems within a reasonable amount of time, and actually listening to our feedback, then they would realize that shit is broken and we aren't happy with it before they let it sit for years untouched because they don't happen to see the issue.

One could guess that their job is primarily about discussing with each other what to do with X or Y instead of working alone. More pressing matters have higher priority while others are given little thought for the time being.

Also, listening to the feedback is never enough. If you just don't have enough money and manpower to do everything, you prioritize- that doesn't mean they don't realize more shit is broken than they can potentially fix. They just go for the ones they think are most alarming. And how they could do that- can they for example fix an issue A by creating the new content in a way that addresses the problem at the same time, instead of fixing the issue and creating new content separately (think Einherjar).

FFXI being a game we all (or most) enjoyed for many years does not excuse the fact that it had a lot of faults that were absolutely not necessary.

And again, they do what they can do. If they don't fix everything does not mean they are not listening. And SE is the most cost-effective company I've seen, especially when it comes to MMO's. That is not the fault of the developer. If their budget can hold 500k subscribers, and they do not think they can gain/lose any more/less revenue by raising the budget, they won't do it.

The problem with this is what I stated above. They have never done it before. It's just like their lack of communication, they don't show us they're listening. They don't make changes based on feedback. Or rarely, and often in a "twist" to the way they were receiving the feedback, turning it into something we didn't want at all. If they're going to start changing policies, it's better to change both at once, otherwise how are we to trust, in any capacity, that they've changed their tune in the way it matters, actually listening and updating the game appropriately?

Then it doesn't matter whether they answer or not. The end result will be the same. Except there will be more fluff that is not reflected in-game. If there is a problem, lack of answer is not it.

[Patriarch]

Alot of people are unhappy with FFXIV, yet some of us plan to give it time with high hopes that this game will be revamped.

Square-Enix royally fucked this game up, and has their work cut out for them. Alot of people are mad.

/thread

[Elrina]

Haven't they? Long term plans I could understand (even if it is still out of game fluff), but that's what they are already doing.. what exactly is the issue here?

You were the one saying that they would have to adjust "everything they said". And no, they aren't. That was the point of several previous posts by several people. We still haven't even seen this supposed road map of the next year, although I suspect it will be severely lacking any sort of real details.

One could guess that their job is primarily about discussing with each other what to do with X or Y instead of working alone. More pressing matters have higher priority while others are given little thought for the time being.

Also, listening to the feedback is never enough. If you just don't have enough money and manpower to do everything, you prioritize- that doesn't mean they don't realize more shit is broken than they can potentially fix. They just go for the ones they think are most alarming. And how they could do that- can they for example fix an issue A by creating the new content in a way that addresses the problem at the same time, instead of fixing the issue and creating new content separately (think Einherjar).

From loldrg, to the years it took for the two hander update, to Absolute Virtue, and a hundred things in between and after, SE has always been excessive about "prioritizing other things". They should have adequate manpower and ability to do their jobs, without losing much (if any) time, keeping their players informed. And even if not informed, even if it did just come in the way of updates, how do we know what they're listening to? If they think they can solve an event problem with content, and want to keep it under wraps, they can still give us an idea that they're working on a way of making it better. And there's no reason that so many things should be hidden or not fixed or adjusted because they aren't a "priority" for anywhere near as long as they have in the past.

And again, they do what they can do. If they don't fix everything does not mean they are not listening. And SE is the most cost-effective company I've seen, especially when it comes to MMO's. That is not the fault of the developer. If their budget can hold 500k subscribers, and they do not think they can gain/lose any more/less revenue by raising the budget, they won't do it.

Last I checked, leaving things broken while listening to the player base scream that it's broken (AV), is equivalent to ignoring us.

Then it doesn't matter whether they answer or not. The end result will be the same. Except there will be more fluff that is not reflected in-game. If there is a problem, lack of answer is not it.

But it is. Just because they don't do something, doesn't make it ok not to. Just because they have other problems that are worse, doesn't make the lesser unimportant. I don't know, I'm not an MMO developer. But I just spent most of this morning reading about the drama going on by the Anon who just slammed the WAR management the night before last, and all the fun that's resulted of that. I do know that it's getting harder for an MMO to be "successful", especially at what they're setting out to accomplish. And the last I checked, they weren't wanting to settle for the same amount of subs they had in XI this time around.

"Good" communication may not be necessary, and "mediocre" communication may suffice, in the end, but they really need to get their shit in gear. Because shiny isn't enough, and if their first UI fix doesn't satisfy the player base, do you think they'll change it again? Or will they decide it's "good enough", and move on to other things, and decide we just need to deal with it because they spent enough time on it and feel that it's perfectly acceptable. And that's only one of the (bigger) problems currently, a good deal of people seem to be having a list of them.

[Riposte]

Alot of people are unhappy with FFXIV, yet some of us plan to give it time with high hopes that this game will be revamped.

Square-Enix royally fucked this game up, and has their work cut out for them. Alot of people are mad.

/thread

/thread?

You stupid fuck

[Lucavi]

Yes of course, I see that it is a quite common trend in the MMO industry- but that doesn't change my opinion that it is quite useless trend in the end, and wouldn't really work for Square as well as it might work for the others.

XIV team might get a reputation for not answering to it's players with more than, y'know, actual changes to the game, but more important than that (much more in fact) is to show us that they are listening- and this does not mean they need to do any of the things described above. They simply have to reflect player's concerns in the changes that happen in-game. That is a universal language everyone will understand, with or without translators. It is also not fluff.

Elcura seems to have got it right.



I find their unpredictability quite appealing. And if there comes a point when I will no longer agree with the direction they're taking the game, quitting shouldn't be too hard- if you haven't gotten addicted, which is quite easily avoidable in the end.

I always listen to my pals who've played WoW for months or years- when it gets boring, they simply do not play anymore. No Blackheartx drama queen posts on the forums or anything of the sort- they just stop playing. That is how it should be.

Well, currently, and based on their last MMO, they do neither, so at this point, I'd rather they go too far in the "coddling" aspect than nothing at all, which is what we currently get, and what we got throughout FFXI. I'm sure they'd have hung onto a few more subs if they had talked about wanting to fix 2-handed weapons a few months (years!) before they actually did it. Many many people quit out of frustrations surrounding that.

Also, about the WoW thing: Yeah, when I quit, I was satisfied. There was no ranting or spittle-spewing. It was a fun game, I had fun, but it was time to move on. By the time I quit FFXI, I didn't care, and by that point I was reasonably satisfied because of the 2-handed fix, the drg fixes, and campaign being so boss, so there wasn't much venom there, but there was definitely more of an embittered feeling throughout the history of my time playing XI than there was in my time spent with WoW. I never downright hated WoW, merely people within it at times.

@Hyan: How do you know that they're looking at any real, tangible long-term fixes? All we know is that they're "reading shit from forums", are planning to address the market wards very soon, want to do "something" with PC controls, and are waiting like a year for chocobos/airships because they want you to pay them lots inbetween. We have no idea what their plans are for anything else. We don't know what they want to do with combat, the UI, sort functions, the 15 menus to get something done, repairs, or anything else.

You can say that you love "being surprised", but its like being surprised by your partner that you received herpes from them. "Surprise!! A mystery gift for you!!"

I don't know if I want to be surprised. Give me spoilers, SE. Spoil that shit for me ahead of time, so I know what I'm getting into.

[Achitophel]

Yeah, they fixed rapid in crafting right! Yeah! They sure fixed Magic classes right! THE FIRST TIME! They fixed the UI lag right, just like they said they were going to do between OB and retail! That 10% increase was RIGHT, so they never have to touch it again because its already right because SE would never "fix" something, then have to go back and adjust it because they messed up. Not ol' SE!

WOO FUCK YEAH SE YOU ONLY FIX SHIT RIGHT THE FIRST TIME! YEAH BABY!!!

Whoever said they did???

[Ksandra]

surpises in storyline = good

surprises in extra unannounced content = good

Surprises in never knowing when the fuck they are going to fix shit = bad


surprises to the point that it looks like they planned zero content = bad


surprises that make it seem like they don't know wtf they're doing = bad


Telling things doesn't mean they have to say EVERYTHING. They can hold the extra stuff back to get people excited. holiday events are an example.

[Lucavi]

Whoever said they did???

You've spent the last 3 pages acting like they do. Talk about a company's "recommended" direction when they actually, you know, do it.

@Ksandra: Falling on deaf ears, m'dear. Its apparently more fun to blindly move forward while relying on faith to see you through than to have a roadmap.

[Hyan]

You were the one saying that they would have to adjust "everything they said". And no, they aren't. That was the point of several previous posts by several people. We still haven't even seen this supposed road map of the next year, although I suspect it will be severely lacking any sort of real details.

If they go into details (like PUP h2h C > A), then yes.

And they have already talked about their long term plans during the eorzea prelive (which was held after the interview that mentioned the "road map of the next year"), and yes, it did lack details for the reasons I have stated here. They either lie to us, or don't tell us the details.

From loldrg, to the years it took for the two hander update, to Absolute Virtue, and a hundred things in between and after, SE has always been excessive about "prioritizing other things". They should have adequate manpower and ability to do their jobs, without losing much (if any) time, keeping their players informed. And even if not informed, even if it did just come in the way of updates, how do we know what they're listening to? If they think they can solve an event problem with content, and want to keep it under wraps, they can still give us an idea that they're working on a way of making it better. And there's no reason that so many things should be hidden or not fixed or adjusted because they aren't a "priority" for anywhere near as long as they have in the past.

They have adequate manpower to keep most of their playerbase playing. I don't know how you (or anyone here) could convince them otherwise. But if you can, please do so.

Last I checked, leaving things broken while listening to the player base scream that it's broken (AV), is equivalent to ignoring us.

Maybe they should just come and say "we are not going to do this"- will that help? When we can already see that when they are not fixing what's broken in the updates. That speaks more than thousand words.

Ignoring the playerbase is a part of any company's routine, if they're not swimming in money. You do what you can, the rest gets ignored.

"Good" communication may not be necessary, and "mediocre" communication may suffice, in the end, but they really need to get their shit in gear. Because shiny isn't enough, and if their first UI fix doesn't satisfy the player base, do you think they'll change it again? Or will they decide it's "good enough", and move on to other things, and decide we just need to deal with it because they spent enough time on it and feel that it's perfectly acceptable. And that's only one of the (bigger) problems currently, a good deal of people seem to be having a list of them.

That depends, really. Cost vs. benefit is probably a hot topic at SE HQ nowadays. If enough people complain about X to make it worthwhile to address, they will look into the problem. Fixing the UI is probably the most cost-effective problem they can address right now, and that's what they've constantly talked about from OB to this day in interviews.

But once again, if they don't fix the UI, the problem is not that they aren't answering us.

@Hyan: How do you know that they're looking at any real, tangible long-term fixes? All we know is that they're "reading shit from forums", are planning to address the market wards very soon, want to do "something" with PC controls, and are waiting like a year for chocobos/airships because they want you to pay them lots inbetween. We have no idea what their plans are for anything else. We don't know what they want to do with combat, the UI, sort functions, the 15 menus to get something done, repairs, or anything else.

And how would you know that even if they told us? Talking about it doesn't mean it's going to change. It's just fluff. And I can assure you that people are going to be just as skeptical after the fluff than before it. They are also going to draw false conclusions (SE tells us about the updates for next year, players assume all of it will be implemented in few weeks).

And in the end being skeptical is the realistic thing to be. Their plans can and will change, and then "SE haz betrayered us agen".

[Achitophel]

You've spent the last 3 pages acting like they do. Talk about a company's "recommended" direction when they actually, you know, do it.

Spent the last three pages? Before the post you just quoted, I had posted just twice on this entire thread. And I never acted like SE did anything, I gave a suggestion for what they should do, and it shouldn't be to have a running dialogue with an infamously impatient, unfocused, illogical, and unrealistic demographic.

Again, this works in WoW because of the type of people they tailor to mostly don't give a shit. They don't view WoW as a hobby, they view it as a video game. I viewed FFXI as a hobby- I don't really play video games.

[Kurokikaze]

You've spent the last 3 pages acting like they do. Talk about a company's "recommended" direction when they actually, you know, do it.

@Ksandra: Falling on deaf ears, m'dear. Its apparently more fun to blindly move forward while relying on faith to see you through than to have a roadmap.

Speaking of which... Wheres that projected roadmap they were supposed to announce that outlined the first year of service... ?

[Hyan]

Speaking of which... Wheres that projected roadmap they were supposed to announce that outlined the first year of service... ?

The interview was conducted before eorzea prelive, but the magazine came out after the event ;(

[Draylo]

Holy shit, Miow/e and hyan serious question, do you work for SE? How the hell you defend it so much is beyond me.

[miokomioko]

What the hell did I say?

[Franzer]

i think the big question on everyone's mind is, when does the halloween event start? inb4 patch tonight includes halloween event

[Meko]

Not sure if this has been posted yet (I've been away from the boards a couple days enjoying WoW ) but I just ran across this:

http://www.cheapassgamer.com/?f=2222