FFXIV Flame Wars Thread: because ten threads is not enough threads

[Hyan]

From a fluidity standpoint, i don't see how that's hilarious.

Take FFXI and add WoW's fluid gameplay and UI, while keeping all the intricacies of XI's threat mechanics, spell recasts, gear swaps and TP mechanics and you have the perfect building block. Toss in fun instances for all level ranges and you have yourself one helluva good game.

No, the game would still be shit :/.

What I basically mean is, if gameplay comes first, you don't make an MMORPG. Because gameplay in MMORPG's is always bad.

But if you find WoW's gameplay interesting enough as is, good for you.

[Achitophel]

Oooohhhh, you're in trouble.

They don't like when you imply that WoW might be anything but the creme de la creme. It's the epitome of MMORPG, don't ya know? What's popular is quality!

[Alderaan]

To be honest, i've never played WoW, so bash it all you want if it makes you feel better. My understanding of the gameplay stems from other similar games that "cloned" that aspect.

It's in my personality and the core of my being to dislike anything popular while always siding with the smaller and the underdog. But even i have to draw the line, as i think XIV is terrible. I will no longer support SE.

[Achitophel]

It's in my nature to be realistic, rational, and pragmatic. The game isn't nearly good enough to play particularly hardcore right now, but it's perfectly normal (not perfectly fine) for playing 2-4 hours a day. Since that's- tops- what I want to put into an MMORPG these days, it's fine. I hope that sooner than later its problems are fixed, but there's no reason to flip out OMG WORST GAME EVAR unless it's something you wanted to play 12 hours a day. And they're not fixed, that's fine too. But no need to fly off the handle in the first couple weeks.

Calm down. Have some dip.

[Shaskoru]

Understanding the correlation between the (lack of) quality in a game and and the game's (lack of) popularity is super hard, apparently.

[Lordender]

[Achitophel]

Understanding the correlation between the (lack of) quality in a game and and the game's (lack of) popularity is super hard, apparently.

N*Sync

[Shaskoru]

I have no idea what you mean by that.

[Dooom]

It means he's a fucking idiot who seems to think popular = bad, always, forever.

[Achitophel]

No, what it means is that popular doesn't necessarily mean good and unpopular doesn't necessarily mean bad. I take it you're no Rhodes Scholar, it wasn't that difficult of a concept.

Jesus christ, it's like playing with a bunch of 4th graders in here. You can't follow logical concepts to save your lives, can you?

[Elrina]

No, what it means is that popular doesn't necessarily mean good and unpopular doesn't necessarily mean bad. I take it you're no Rhodes Scholar, it wasn't that difficult of a concept.

Jesus christ, it's like playing with a bunch of 4th graders in here. You can't follow logical concepts to save your lives, can you?

"Good" is often subjective in the context you're referring to, and so is "bad". And generally, despite this being the "flame thread", people tend to react better to explanations and manners rather than mockery and criticism of their opinions. Which are also subjective.

[shepardG]

No, what it means is that popular doesn't necessarily mean good and unpopular doesn't necessarily mean bad. I take it you're no Rhodes Scholar, it wasn't that difficult of a concept.

Jesus christ, it's like playing with a bunch of 4th graders in here. You can't follow logical concepts to save your lives, can you?

Oh we can follow it, we just haven't heard one from your dumbass since you started posting

[Machazareel]

No, what it means is that popular doesn't necessarily mean good and unpopular doesn't necessarily mean bad. I take it you're no Rhodes Scholar, it wasn't that difficult of a concept.

Jesus christ, it's like playing with a bunch of 4th graders in here. You can't follow logical concepts to save your lives, can you?

What you percieve as bad, others can percieve as good. It's opinion. For those who liked the music from N'Sync, it was good. For people who don't share those tastes, it was bad. It's all subjective, and something being really popular is generally indicative of a lot of people thinking it is good. You're in no place to judge whether or not they're wrong or right about their opinions, because opinions are nothing more than that, opinions. I think trance is a musical abomination, but I understand that lots of people like it, and obviously that means it's good to someone.

capiche?

[Achitophel]

"Good" is often subjective in the context you're referring to, and so is "bad". And generally, despite this being the "flame thread", people tend to react better to explanations and manners rather than mockery and criticism of their opinions. Which are also subjective.

That good and bad are subjective is the entire point I've been trying to make. An appeal to authority (mostly known here as "WoW") is totally irrespective of...anything.

Oh we can follow it, we just haven't heard one from your dumbass since you started posting

No, most of you can't. For video game nerds, this doesn't strike me as a particularly intellectual crowd. The off topic board will tell you that if you drift into politics at all. Whether or not the conclusions are correct, the majority of the argumentation to get there is pathetic. Like the black knighting/white knighting here about FFXIV: whether the game is good or bad, most of the reasoning surrounding it is pathetic. It's more fun to pick on the black knights, though, as they seem to think they're more self-assured. Note that I said that they "think" they are. They seem to crumble in the face of opposition, though. Mio and Hyan, whatever their faults, are at least resilient. Blackheart and Pririan seem to wilt into nonsense whenever someone catches them in their cognitive flubs after more than a few posts.

What you percieve as bad, others can percieve as good. It's opinion. For those who liked the music from N'Sync, it was good. For people who don't share those tastes, it was bad. It's all subjective, and something being really popular is generally indicative of a lot of people thinking it is good. You're in no place to judge whether or not they're wrong or right about their opinions, because opinions are nothing more than that, opinions. I think trance is a musical abomination, but I understand that lots of people like it, and obviously that means it's good to someone.

capiche?

I don't know why you said capiche; that's exactly what I've been espousing. But we agree.

capiche?

[Dooom]

It's cute that you think you're making valid points and presenting them properly.

[Achitophel]

Exactly my point. Thank you.

[vadre]

It's cute that you think you're making valid points and presenting them properly.

Equally, it's cute that you're making empty statements with nothing to back them up, having totally misread what he was trying to say previously.

I really don't understand what the arguement is, in essence you're just agreeing that popularity and quality do not necessarily correlate. Saying that it's just perspective only serves to further that.

[CasualPlayer]

I mostly prefer to debate with the loud nay-sayers that I feel are exaggerating the issues beyond reason because of "nerdrage" or blaming shit on the "lazy devs" who are actually having their hands forced by the suits upstairs. The game does have many serious problems that can't be defended. However, I am one of the few who is expecting eventually fixes for most, if not all, of the biggest issues... even though for now I'm having my casual funs as-is.

Then you get people like D44kpunk, who are too stubborn to imagine there might be a grey area between hating Square-Enix and "worshipping" Square-Enix.

http://img841.imageshack.us/img841/8082/calv.jpg

Damn good post..... damn good

[Elrina]

If we were to just accept that everything is subjective and leave it at that there would be no point in expressing opinions.

While it may be opinion, and popularity may not equate to "right", generally it's not good for a company if they release a new game and popular opinion is pretty much instantly that it's bad. Even the people who are confidant fixes will come seem to agree there are major faults with it that need to be fixed, they simply seem to believe they'll eventually be taken care of. And they probably will, but if SE's history has taught us anything, it's that the fix may not be that much better than the original problem till the second or third time it's "fixed". Which is one of the reasons many of us wanted better communication and feedback channels with SE.

Depending on how this goes over the next few months or so for XIV, subscriber wise, I'm sort of interested in whether they'll announce that they're beginning development on a true FFVII remake at the next E3. They've been saving that check for a little while now, curious as to whether they'll cash it to balance out all the bad press on XIV (and the possible less than projected revenue from subscriptions).

[Achitophel]

If we were to just accept that everything is subjective and leave it at that there would be no point in expressing opinions.

While it may be opinion, and popularity may not equate to "right", generally it's not good for a company if they release a new game and popular opinion is pretty much instantly that it's bad. Even the people who are confidant fixes will come seem to agree there are major faults with it that need to be fixed, they simply seem to believe they'll eventually be taken care of. And they probably will, but if SE's history has taught us anything, it's that the fix may not be that much better than the original problem till the second or third time it's "fixed". Which is one of the reasons many of us wanted better communication and feedback channels with SE.

You're absolutely right. But I don't care if SE makes any money. Conversely, I actively hope they don't make the game like WoW, which basically- to me, of course- equates to a Street Fighter II game with some RPG elements. That's of no use to me, SFII or Castle Crashers can fill that niche. I want a very deep, very intricate game. We know that's a niche market and not a wide one. Whether they make a 1% profit or a 1000% profit on it means nothing to me; I'm not a shareholder.