FFXIV Flame Wars Thread: because ten threads is not enough threads

[Hyan]

I would say you havent tried WoW if you never reached the outland. Old world content is subpar, and thats why they are about to nuke it completely.


And no mmo is hard to figure out, the beauty is in the details, and how it is executed. You cant understand these things if you havent played (not just for wow, but any mmo).

Jusy like you couldnt explain exactly how challenging salvage is and how it feels, it would be hard for someone who hasnt played WoW to understand what fighting a difficult raid boss means.

Yeah, maybe. I try to avoid going into the details though, and if what I say happens to be false I'm sure there are many eager to correct me. It is also quite easy to fool me by saying something that's not true (or exaggerating it), but I don't think that applies to you or lucavi.

And by few, I mean one. I really cant think of anything outside SW galaxy.

I dont think its possible to have a sandbox feel, with an involving story/contents thought. You can have one or the other, but both at the same time is conflicting.

I don't know as I haven't really tried SW Galaxies either, but I think they tried to do too many things at once with that game imo.

And EVE is just math, not a game.. they don't even try to hide it.

That's just the point. They aren't coming back, so why keep pining for something that's dead and gone? Money determines the future, and there's more money in doing it in the modern style, which is why everyone keeps trying to copy/surpass WoW.

Oh I'm all up for either. I just don't think mixing up is a good direction at all, and it seems to have worked only once so far anyway. I don't think there's more money for this style imo.

[Kaylia]

Yeah, maybe. I try to avoid going into the details though, and if what I say happens to be false I'm sure there are many eager to correct me. It is also quite easy to fool me by saying something that's not true (or exaggerating it), but I don't think that applies to you or lucavi.

The only reason why I'm defending WoW here is because I was in your situation a little while ago. The game simply didnt look interesting. In the end, what I thought wouldnt interest me didnt interest me, but I found a bunch of other stuff that I did enjoy. Exploring the world rich in lore (especially if you have played the previous game) and soloing the instance was my main interest at first. Then I enjoyed completing all the old contents. The 3rd month was boring for the most part, but thats when I started raiding, and found the challenge to be quite fun. I quit on my 4th month, and come back occasionally since then to complete the newer stuff.


I dont know if they tried to do too many thing at once in SW galaxy, but in the end, it felt empty. You know how empty tatoine desert is...well yeah, thats how the game was. The crafting was more involving than FFXI, you could buy a house, set a shop, you had class that served no purpose (entertainer), but it was lacking everywhere else.

[Lucavi]

I think doing any style, and doing it well, taking your time, and delivering a crisp and polished product at launch is a good direction. It doesn't matter which "direction" of MMO you pursue if the shit hits the stores come retail-time looking like its still in pre-alpha. The grand majority of companies fail at this, and that is why they fail, not so much because of which "direction" of MMO they designed.

End of story.

Shit, look at Minecraft. They could charge 5 bucks a month for it and people would still eat it up. Its more polished than most games right out of the gate. You don't need the biggest graphics or the biggest budget or even a "direction" that is trail-worn and popular. Just release your shit cleanly and people will come.

[Kaylia]

Graphic is what is killing mmo. All their budget is wasted to make a pretty world that is boring as shit. People can complain all they want about WoW graphics, but it gave them a lot more freedom for the design..and hell, it doesnt even look that bad with all the graphic updates.

Minecraft is the best example for shit graphics that make an awesome games. Just because it looks so cheap, they were able to add gameplay feature that wouldnt be possible otherwise (modifying terrain).

[ronin sparthos]

I think doing any style, and doing it well, taking your time, and delivering a crisp and polished product at launch is a good direction. It doesn't matter which "direction" of MMO you pursue if the shit hits the stores come retail-time looking like its still in pre-alpha. The grand majority of companies fail at this, and that is why they fail, not so much because of which "direction" of MMO they designed.

End of story.

This.

What consumer actually gives a fuck about the academic definition of what an MMO is? They either want a polished game that'll pass the time, something they can play with friends or a game that will immerse them into a fantasy world.

SE sells itself on nostalgia, beautiful soundtracks and previous success. XIV has completely failed to deliver and yet again has even the most faithful of fans asking themselves if the magic at SE has run out.

The game doesn't immerse, friends wouldn't ship a copy to their worst enemy and not even Uematsu could save SE from the backlash that comes with putting out an unfinished project that has taken them over 5 years to create.

Some people care about story, some people care about PVP and still others care about graphics but I damn well know no one goes into a store, picks up a copy of an MMO and asks the clerk "Is this a real MMO?"

It's a fucking non-issue.

[Hyan]

I think doing any style, and doing it well, taking your time, and delivering a crisp and polished product at launch is a good direction. It doesn't matter which "direction" of MMO you pursue if the shit hits the stores come retail-time looking like its still in pre-alpha. The grand majority of companies fail at this, and that is why they fail, not so much because of which "direction" of MMO they designed.

Well, subjectively that has nothing to do with why I don't like these games. I think AoC is fine now as a game, polished and shit, but it's still a bore. WAR isn't that bad either, but all these games while not being that bad give me the impression that I'd have a better time just playing WoW.

The game will be always ahead, as long as it gets mimic'd.

It's a fucking non-issue.

It's not that simple.

[Dooom]

It's not that simple.

Why?

[Kaylia]

SE sells itself on nostalgia

They didnt even sell nostalgia in FFXIV. >_> You could make an argument for chocobo and ffxi races, but I dont recognize anything from previous FF in this game. FFXI at least had job that made me feel at home.

[Hyan]

Because people have needs they want to satisfy, and these games are not doing that for them. It is easy to say it's because they are released the way they are but even when they are "ready" they're not any better.

They either want a polished game that'll pass the time, something they can play with friends or a game that will immerse them into a fantasy world.

I also don't think people's expectations are this low.

Graphic is what is killing mmo. All their budget is wasted to make a pretty world that is boring as shit.

I think it's also because they are focusing on creating a huge world and gameplay around it so servers can handle the stress. Then they fill the game with instances and instant teleports and suddenly modeling all that world is just not worth the hassle. It's like the devs are fighting against their own design.

I don't think MMO's have that good graphics IMO.

[Lucavi]

Well, subjectively that has nothing to do with why I don't like these games. I think AoC is fine now as a game, polished and shit, but it's still a bore. WAR isn't that bad either, but all these games while not being that bad give me the impression that I'd have a better time just playing WoW.

It's not that simple.

Boring, to you. It wasn't to many that tried it and left. "Boring to me" is a subjective term; far more subjective than my post above.

The game was buggy as shit. The game would be fine right now, if it hadn't been released the buggy blob of tripe it was.

You talk about boring, but you don't say why. Is it the combat system? Is it the world? Is it the lore? Is it the activities? Is it a collection of many of these things?

You can fix much of this with fresh content and new ideas, and those come through funding, which comes through having a successful launch that garners subs and retains them through launching a relatively polished game. AoC, much like Warhammer, certainly had the initial numbers. It was the lack of polish that killed both.

I'm not talking about trying to satisfy "you", Hyan. God knows that no company can ever do that. I am, and always will be talking about the success of the game financially and commercially, even if it means that I personally don't like the game. Both games could have been easily as financially and commercially successful of FFXI, had they released with some sense of stability and polish.

There's nothing complicated about it. Put out a clean product and people will play it. SOMEONE will play it; typically quite a few someones. There will always be people like you that attempt to philosophize about the nuances of each genre and what defines the water and air around us, but companies couldn't give two shits. They want subs, and they could have had them had they done things right from the gate.

[Hyan]

You talk about boring, but you don't say why. Is it the combat system? Is it the world? Is it the lore? Is it the activities? Is it a collection of many of these things?

It is the déjà vu. Which wouldn't be as bad, if I could somehow repeat the magic I had with the first game (because it was an experience back then- the magic doesn't last forever). But all that is left are the sub-par realities of an MMO and it's limitations. It does not interest me as a game (because MMO's are shitty games), and it does not try to do anything to keep me interested in any other way either. Thus, it is boring.

When it comes to other series, for example I enjoy playing Kingdom Hearts sequel after another. There's not as many new elements as I'd wish for, but the gameplay is enjoyable and complicated enough as-is. I can't say the same of any MMO.

But let me ask you a question;

It was the lack of polish that killed both.

How do you know? And in this case, what is necessary polish to achieve what you want to accomplish? WoW will always be X years ahead of any game. You can catch up in some ways, but not in all. But if you can't get up there, how can you ever make the game polished "enough"?

[ronin sparthos]

It's not that simple.

Oh indeed it is that simple.

Most people do NOT care about the academic definition of an MMO any more than most people bash enter to skip through cutscene/story fluff. Most people are buying an MMO generally for:

-Online interaction with others
-A game that seemingly "doesn't end"
-Immersion into a fantasy world
-Internet ego stroking

Selection of a title usually boils down to reviews by peers, general gameplay mechanics then lesser things like graphics and company reputation. Of course this order changes with different people but the general gamer doesn't really care about the dry academic definition of various MMOs.

They didnt even sell nostalgia in FFXIV. >_> You could make an argument for chocobo and ffxi races, but I dont recognize anything from previous FF in this game. FFXI at least had job that made me feel at home.

I disagree.

The entire reason SE launched XIV as-is was purely based on the idea that nostalgia would hold over people until they got their fixes in place. Reviewers over the years hold a warm spot for Final Fantasy games and SE always intends to capitalize on it. People rushed out to buy CE versions of the game purely based on the nostalgia of XI or previous FFs simply because this game was labeled Final Fantasy XIV.

Moogles, Chocobos, Airships, Cid, Summons etc will all eventually be in XIV but SEs fatal flaw is thinking that you can polish a lump of clay, call it final fantasy and think it won't be subject to review.

[Hyan]

Oh indeed it is that simple.

Most people do NOT care about the academic definition of an MMO any more than most people bash enter to skip through cutscene/story fluff. Most people are buying an MMO generally for:

-Online interaction with others
-A game that seemingly "doesn't end"
-Immersion into a fantasy world
-Internet ego stroking

Selection of a title usually boils down to reviews by peers, general gameplay mechanics then lesser things like graphics and company reputation. Of course this order changes with different people but the general gamer doesn't really care about the dry academic definition of various MMOs.

Yet all the forums for various MMO's are full of people with a degree in game design. I don't think your normal consumer should even care about this, not more than knowing what kind of game you enjoy and what kind of game you just think you enjoy.

But developers should understand the differences. The Japanese way of thinking "if I wolk hald fol the company evelything wirr be fine" just doesn't cut it. Consumers will benefit from this the most.

Right now they are like lost puppies not knowing what the hell to do with the genre. The line between online RPG and MMORPG is getting thinner, yet it's not a good thing.

[Lucavi]

It is the déjà vu. Which wouldn't be as bad, if I could somehow repeat the magic I had with the first game (because it was an experience back then- the magic doesn't last forever). But all that is left are the sub-par realities of an MMO and it's limitations. It does not interest me as a game (because MMO's are shitty games), and it does not try to do anything to keep me interested in any other way either. Thus, it is boring.

When it comes to other series, for example I enjoy playing Kingdom Hearts sequel after another. There's not as many new elements as I'd wish for, but the gameplay is enjoyable and complicated enough as-is. I can't say the same of any MMO.

But let me ask you a question;



How do you know? And in this case, what is necessary polish to achieve what you want to accomplish? WoW will always be X years ahead of any game. You can catch up in some ways, but not in all. But if you can't get up there, how can you ever make the game polished "enough"?

How do I know? Because I read the forums for both games daily back then, doing research before plopping down my hard-earned cash on both games, and ultimately decided to fight off my impulse urges and hold off on getting the games. Unlike FF's, these games had/have official forums, and it was clear as day that the crippling bugs and slow response to them killed both games. You don't go from 600k subs to less than 100k with AoC and over a Million subs to 200k in Warhammer in 6 months because the story dried up. People. Were. Frustrated.

You seem to think that polish = content. It does not. Lets take our favorite game, FFXIV, as an example. I'll rattle off some things that have nothing to do with being out for 10 years that can be solidified to ensure a good launch.

Quest Bugs existing since Beta
Graphical bugs existing since beta
Smooth access to the game (the game should be nearly as easy to sign up for as it was to buy; take WoW for example. Less than 10 minutes and you're ready to play, and its always been that easy. Compare that to FFXIV, a brand new game, that confused not only myself, but a lot of people)
Combat system bugs existing since beta
Imbalances existing since beta
Spelling mistakes in quests since beta
Graphical/Driver incompatibilities
System crashes
UI problems existing since beta
File corruption issues (seriously a killer - nothing says fun like losing everything through no fault of your own)
Server rollbacks due to faulty systems (not counting due to exploits through players, as a company has every right to deny cheaters access to the goods)


I could go on and on, and notice that I said nothing about server stress. Server stress is hard to predict, and many games will get a free pass on crashing servers due to demand so long as the game is fun to play. Notice that I also didn't say anything about the actual content of the game, because that doesn't matter right at launch. People won't complain about content for at least two months if they are actually having fun playing the game because they can actually play it.

Most of those above also have the beta tag associated with them, because that's what a beta is for: to get that shit out of the game before launch. FFXIV didn't fix a single tangible thing from Beta P2 to retail (2 entire betas later) outside of speeding up the server-checking lag, which is still pitifully sluggish. I have no idea why they even ran open beta considering that they stress-tested heavily during P3. OB seemed to simply serve as a free preview for people on the fence, and even that failed as it was an incredibly convoluted process to even get into OB for everyone involved.


Edit: You also talk about deja vu. You know what gives me deja vu? Good Deja vu? KILLING THIS WITH A SWORD AND SHIELD. If I can do that in a MMO, and do it smoothly without hitches and bugs, I will typically play that game. I've played F2Ps that looked like fucking 8-bit muds and had a boatload of fun in them; far more fun than I had in FFXIV. Trickster Online is a better game than FFXIV.

Like I said earlier, nothing will ever please you. You've got your own dream of a perfect game that cannot be accomplished, and unlike others, you cannot settle without complaining about it. That is fine, but again, these companies aren't shooting for your 12 bucks a month to the exclusion of every other customer. They want mass amounts of 12 bucks, and the best way to get it is through polish right off the back.

[Hyan]

How do I know? Because I read the forums for both games daily back then, doing research before plopping down my hard-earned cash on both games, and ultimately decided to fight off my impulse urges and hold off on getting the games. Unlike FF's, these games had/have official forums, and it was clear as day that the crippling bugs and slow response to them killed both games. You don't go from 600k subs to less than 100k with AoC and over a Million subs to 200k in Warhammer in 6 months because the story dried up. People. Were. Frustrated.

The voice of the vocal minority is your basis for this argument?

Yet, what you say doesn't give any valid reason as to why what I say can't be true as well.

You seem to think that polish = content. It does not. Lets take our favorite game, FFXIV, as an example. I'll rattle off some things that have nothing to do with being out for 10 years that can be solidified to ensure a good launch.

Not really. But WoW has both, and you can only achieve one with a new game.. and my argument is that this is not enough.

Edit: You also talk about deja vu. You know what gives me deja vu? Good Deja vu? KILLING THIS WITH A SWORD AND SHIELD. If I can do that in a MMO, and do it smoothly without hitches and bugs, I will typically play that game. I've played F2Ps that looked like fucking 8-bit muds and had a boatload of fun in them; far more fun than I had in FFXIV. Trickster Online is a better game than FFXIV.

You don't seem to understand what I'm trying to get across here. Which then leads you to...

Like I said earlier, nothing will ever please you.

And at this point I don't really care that you don't understand, lol. I've had my fair share of games I've enjoyed this year alone and what I like is not a hard concept to grasp. I will also enjoy this game (more than others, even if it's not my dream game) if they don't completely 180 on some of these things and it becomes good someday. And you will never understand why.

In a way that makes me sad.

ib4 "nobody but you thinks so" blahblah.. please keep it to fewer words.

[CasualPlayer]

Don't play the 'you can't refute my argument' card when you haven't been making a valid argument since you joined the boards.

Ah, so you haven't been reading my posts then.

[Meko]

Personally, I didn't find Age of Conan to be a bad game at all. In fact, I think it was quite good and the pace of the game moved quite well. To be able to have your guild construct it's own keep and town was incredible. To be able to defend it from attacking NPC's and attacking guilds, again, awesome. The classes were neat and the talent trees were as well. The graphics were very good (and still are imo) and overall, the game was pretty fun. The problem with AoC and the reason me and most of my friends quit is due to the fact that the game was a buggy mess. Quests, NPCs, dungeons, etc were ALL buggy to no end. Some of the lore was neat, the dungeons, mounts etc all had a huge draw for me and my friends but the overall buggyness of the game is what killed it for us. Why play something so broken and not ready when you can simply login to WoW or FFXI and be running in a great game smoothly? It's that simple for me.

Here's a picture of me being stuck in water and 'drowning' for like 45 minutes before I had to contact a GM. We were in this giant temple (dungeon) and we fell off into this water. There is a ladder but you can't climb up it because it was bugged so we decided to try and drown ourselves to resurrect and come back in but failed lol.

http://i82.photobucket.com/albums/j2...g?t=1288201325
(Notice in the picture that in the chat window it states 'You can climb here!' - it was a lie! lol)

PS: Also, the interface was simple and intuitive. Oh, want to put something on your bar? Simply click and drag (a la WoW).

[Tomino]

Personally, I think the worst part of FFXIV doesn't involve polishing or bugs.
I can handle an earlie release for marketing reasons, and I can handle lack of content and things like that; I'm sure others can't but to each its own.

What's scaring me out is the simple fact I don't understand FF14 AT ALL. What's its purpose, exactly?

For those who liked/like FF11, it's a mere re-start where you'd dump a 6 years old character to restart a new one which can looks exactly the same. With 1/10 of the development efforts, they could had done a new expansion just for the lovers.

For those who were cockblocked by FF11 grind, the game now offers.. just the exact same grind. It's slow, party-based, not at all friendly with newcomers.

To those who didn't like FF11, this game just looks ridicously.

[Hyan]

I can handle an earlie release for marketing reasons, and I can handle lack of content and things like that; I'm sure others can't but to each its own.

You don't seem like you can.

[Tomino]

Why you say so?
I don't see how earlie release or bugs have anything to do with the fact Leves don't work as a levelling mechanics or the fact that synthing is a long, complex and ultimately time consuming process. These are design choices and they were made on purpose.

This is not WAR where they planned 6 cities and only managed to make 3, or they had this titanic new RvR feature that was hard to tune and fix.