FFXIV Flame Wars Thread: because ten threads is not enough threads

[Hyan]

Nonsense. They had plenty to gain when half the FFXI population bailed the fuck out post-CoP, and what did they do? Piss off half of the remaining half with salvage bans, lol.

Oh, so the argument of yours is that ToAU sucked and CoP was so much better? That the direction of the game was not affected by the decreasing population in favor of more casual gaming that people seemed to like more?

The fact is that ToAU was good, and CoP was shit, and both were that way because of one reason and one reason only: Before and during CoP they had nothing to lose.

When 200k people bailed out at the end of CoP, what did they give us? ToAU. Guess why?

Because they finally had something to lose. Before ToAU it was all talk and no action. People can say whatever the fuck they want but if they aren't going anywhere, what reason do they have to act?

They added things in to "APPEASE" people, not -because- of people.

They did what was necessary. And there is no reason to assume they won't do the same thing here. That's all there is to it.

Edit: And no, Hyan, not everything is criticized. I had and still have no criticisms about Campaign. None at all. It was a nearly perfect concept for the game it was found in, IMO.

But you know what's funny? There is someone out there who can and will criticize campaign if given the chance. You don't have to criticize it for my point to be valid.

That's usually the most common excuse for something that was simply put, bad.

Happens with every game, or rather, every change ever made lol.

[Meresgi]

It sure must be great living up on this huge ass pedestal some of you seem to sit on while posting. Apparently SE wronged you in some horrible way? Did they rape your cat? Did they steal your lunch monies? Because no matter what they do, plan or say is never good enough and if it's to that point...why the fuck are you still posting in FF threads and talking about the game, like you are the hand chosen savior who knows exactly how to fix the game if ONLY THEY WOULD LISTEN!!

Major things will not be changed, however. The game's over reliance on loading screens cannot be changed. The FFXIII feeling of linearity cannot be changed, as even zones like Coerthas have surprisingly little "things" to discover, and you can already feel that the game will eventually return to quests being "go to ??? >> CS >> fight popped mob >> receive item >> back to town >> CS >> reward", ect. The UI lag cannot be changed, because SE has already committed to this stupid system.

Loading screens? Are we talking about the ones when you start up the game? Or the 3 seconds it takes to zone from 1 major zone to one of the other 5? Both of which can be changed so that's moot. I'm not sure what loading screens you are finding that take more then a max of 5 seconds.

And linearity? There are camps that direct you to areas around which you are lvling..but its your choice. At rank 30 I have about 7 different camp choices that I know of, and i'm sure there are plenty more. The zones are fairly large, but this is due to having to run around which is just a forced way of making them look big (chocobos plz) but like when WoW mounts were lvl 40, how big did the zones appear before you got a mount and after? Same thing really.
The UI lag can't be changed? Sure it can, the system is bad right now, and they are sticking to wanting a system that does what they want, but that doesn't mean they can not tweak it to be better and more fluid.

So 3 things that are believed can't be changed can be easily via: expansions/new zones, tweaking their UI system to allow for more fluid actions, loading screens which...I don't even see as an issue right now.

They added things in to "APPEASE" people, not -because- of people.

The shit does this even mean? That's totally subjective and makes no sense. If I give you an apple, is it because I want to appease your complaints about being hungry? Or because I care about you as a person. Do you think major companies CARE about you and that's why they give you certain benefits and pay you certain wages?

[Lucavi]

Meresegi, I'm talking about the same loading screens that were in XI, that are now in XIV. I said nothing about how long they take. I said loading screens. For each cutscene. Every time. The zone breaks aren't an issue, because every game has some form of that, but the CSes are incredibly annoying and disjointing because they split the game into 2 separate parts: the fanciful world where everyone is fluid and vibrant and has boundless agility, and the real world where everyone is stiff and awkward.

Next point: Linearity. Linearity of the zones, not the progression. Moving on.

UI lag: Unless they want to stop their supposed anti-botting schpeal, this won't be changed. The lag comes from the bouncing back between the client and the server constantly for each check for each action. To undo this would mean (in SE's eyes) opening the door for the same abuse that XI suffered. Unless they find a better way to do it (involving a hefty redesign), they will not.

If you don't see an issue, that's more than fine, but apparently many, many, many people do. I think the subs say it all. Just sayin'.

Lastly, its not subjective at all. They did it because they had to do it to survive as a MMO, especially when the writing was on the wall with CoP that people were getting very tired of the nonsensical running through hoops and waiting for JP midnight for everything. They did it because they wished to stop the bleeding, nothing more. They didn't do it in response to complaints, or even address those complaints, or even address the fact that there were complaints; they did it because a massive number of people left.

[Nevex]

FFXIV's ridicolously huge maps made me appreciate FFXIII's small and linear ones. At least FFXIII didn't recycle the same ramps, rocks, vegetation and structures hundreds of times like FFXIV did.
The size of FFXIV's map is just another mean to waste players' time, just like nearly everything else about this game.

[Meresgi]

Meresegi, I'm talking about the same loading screens that were in XI, that are now in XIV. I said nothing about how long they take. I said loading screens. For each cutscene. Every time. The zone breaks aren't an issue, because every game has some form of that, but the CSes are incredibly annoying and disjointing because they split the game into 2 separate parts: the fanciful world where everyone is fluid and vibrant and has boundless agility, and the real world where everyone is stiff and awkward.

I'm sorry but a complaint like that is like complaining about cutscenes in any game. They are there, and fluid to tell the story in more ways then just text can.

They did it because they had to do it to survive as a MMO,

they did it because a massive number of people left.

They didn't do it in response to complaints, or even address those complaints, or even address the fact that there were complaints

Complaining and bitching will only get you so far. Most companies don't care if your panties are in a bunch over something, but when you actually leave the game, stop giving them money, that's a far more resounding complaint, and it's still a complaint. Like you said, the subs speak for themselves, and I think that's why SE is putting out these updates right now along with the bonus free time.

I can see your point somewhat on linearity..but only for Grid and somewhat for Limsa, Uldah's area is pretty vast, with tons of caves and locations under the actual zone too. It doesn't go from point A>B>C. And really Limsa doesn't either as you can go to a lot of different areas in each rank bracket. Though I will admit, the zones are pretty small and I really wish there was a lot more world, im hoping that the expansion will introduce a lot more like Rise of Zilart did, but who knows, not holding my breath.

The size of FFXIV's map is just another mean to waste players' time, just like nearly everything else about this game.

MMOs are just a waste of time basically, it just depends on how the devs want you to waste your time. Time sinks are what make MMOs...MMOs right now. Hopefully the new age will bring about something better then just "grind here xx amount of times then go here".

[Kaylia]

What the fuck is this shit? When was AF armor introduced to FFXI? Since when do job names hold nostalgia, a black mage is just a caster that tosses out elemental spells. And 14 allows you to make your caster be a RDM, WHM, BLM or w/e the hell you want it to be. If you have nostalgia for a class...go and make it. Saying people are emotionally tied to a label is retarded at best, trolling at worst..

Do you seriously believe the word "black mage" refers to a generic mage who cast elemental spells, and not to the iconic blue robe with pointy yellow hat?

Like it or not, but the jobs represent more than a naming convention to fan who have been around for a while. If I play a StarWars game, I will expect to see Jedi, Bounty Hunter, smuggler, Tatoine, and robot. If I play WoW, I will want to see warcraft's building, races, and beastiaries. If I play Final fantasy, I will expect to see chocobo, moogle, airship, jobs and crystal. That's how it works.

Just go ask random people what is Final fantasy, and I would be surprised if the traditional jobs didn't came in the top three of the defining aspect of the franchise (probably right after chocobo).

Edit: ill list some shit design choices that can be patched.

UI issues, anima regen, fighting mechanics, end game content, crafting hangups, random skill gains.

...You just named everything remotely linked to the gameplay. That's hilarious.

Yes, they have a decent graphics engine to build upon. That's pretty much where it stop. It's definitively possible to trash everything and restart with something people like...but do you think it will happen?

[Correction]

You have successfully argued that fans of the franchise identify it by its iconic representations, job names and appearance being one of them. Yes, FFXI fulfilled these expecations.

But you aren't convincing anybody that it matters, in the face of its absence from otherwise well-received entries in the series. FFXI is an the exception to this 'rule' over the last 11 years, as the Black Mage iconography hasn't existed in the canonical games since IX. But you can't stretch the thematic/iconographic argument over the whole surface of the game without looking like an idiot. A game is not automatically worse or better for fulfilling this expectation of the franchise faithful.

[SephYuyX]

Is anyone still playing this game? Pretty sure everyone quit.

[Tomino]

A game is not automatically worse or better for fulfilling this expectation of the franchise faithful.

Problem is, we're still talking about an MMO here.
As much as it can follow a story, we'd all agree it will always work a lot different than a standard single player RPG so it can be assumed a few things will have a different impact.

I absolutely agree that while Red XIII sure wasn't a MNK or a BLM, a lot of people loved him and grew attached to the character.
But back then, you were just a gamer controlling a group of story-defined characters with their traits and personality so things like "iconic classes" became quite secondary. In fact, aside FFV, I don't remember any other FF game caring that much about whenever or not jobs were handled properly.
But those were all games with a strong, vivid story and a cast.

FF11 to me is much more similiar to FFT. You have important NPCs but your party is still made up by somehow "anonymous" characters only your own imagination can improve.
In such scenario, you can only draw strength from franchise elements such as spells, jobs, and such. They help you bond with the unnamed dudes as they help you recreate some of the past heroes within your game.
A lot of people I met picked Thief after Zidane, Paladin after Cecil, Dragoon after Kain, Monk after Sabin and so on and so forth.

There is nothing like that in FF14 and to me, something was definitely lost, as far as personal opinions go. What made it worst is that they kept A LOT of other things.

[drwaffles]

Is anyone still playing this game? Pretty sure everyone quit.

There's sometimes as many as three times the people logged onto my XI server as there are logged onto my XIV server, and there are five more XI servers than XIV servers. Make of that what you will.

[Kaylia]

But you aren't convincing anybody that it matters, in the face of its absence from otherwise well-received entries in the series. FFXI is an the exception to this 'rule' over the last 11 years, as the Black Mage iconography hasn't existed in the canonical games since IX. But you can't stretch the thematic/iconographic argument over the whole surface of the game without looking like an idiot. A game is not automatically worse or better for fulfilling this expectation of the franchise faithful.

If you disagree, explain this to me. Why were AF one of the most popular goal for new players in FFXI's early days? Do you believe a generic set would capture the same interest?

One important aspect of a mmo is rewarding player with something he cares about, and using emotional attachment to icon is a good way to accomplish this. Is it the difference between success and faillure? No, but every little bit add up when it come to producing an enjoyable experience. Just because something doesn't affect the gameplay directly doesn't mean it couldn't have positive effect on the game.

[Correction]

I believe that the thematic elements borrowed from Final Fantasy Tactics is what made FFXI so accessible and popular with its audience, including myself.

I don't believe that the same elements have to be present in FFXIV out of obligation to FFXI's success. In fact, what it has directly lifted from FFXI is probably what irks me a little, because seeing the Gobbue model makes me think 'lazy' and seeing an unusable chocobo makes me think 'useless pandering.' How I react to FFXIV's attempts at reaching out to my sense of nostalgia and franchise loyalty is not how you're reacting to it. This is why you can't really push the familiarity argument when there are much larger gaps in what the game has to offer as a canonical member of the FF franchise that have nothing to do with thematic content or visible iconography.

[Lucavi]

I'm sorry but a complaint like that is like complaining about cutscenes in any game. They are there, and fluid to tell the story in more ways then just text can.
Complaining and bitching will only get you so far. Most companies don't care if your panties are in a bunch over something, but when you actually leave the game, stop giving them money, that's a far more resounding complaint, and it's still a complaint. Like you said, the subs speak for themselves, and I think that's why SE is putting out these updates right now along with the bonus free time.

1) Not every MMO relies on constant loading screens to tell the story. Its not immersive - its fragmenting and disjointed, jerking you from one "world" to another, with the one you want to be involved in never allowing you to actually do so.
2) You call it whining and bitching, but when "whining and bitching" comes from all corners of the globe's playerbase, is it still whining and bitching? I could have talked endlessly about the "main" issues, but those have been talked to death. Fact is, there are simply too many issues here. I suppose it all does sound like bitching, but that's because there's more wrong with the game than right.

At any rate, it doesn't matter one way or another. I bitch in hopes that SE reads it, even if they don't change a thing, and because it always gives me something to do when the other forum threads are slow. If you want to defend it under the guise of "you're nitpicking", then so be it. I'll nitpick all day because I paid for the product, and because this is a forum thread devised entirely for it. If I didn't buy it, I wouldn't sit here and complain about it; I'd simply avoid it altogether like I do for countless other games.

[Jak]

So I see FF:XIV made yahoo news in the "biggest game flops of 2010" >_>;

[miokomioko]

Why were AF one of the most popular goal for new players in FFXI's early days? Do you believe a generic set would capture the same interest?

Artifact equipment was a popular goal because it:

a) was unique to your job, portraying your character more visually accurate
b) was aesthetically unique and more detailed than any other gear
c) boosted the unique abilities/traits of your job
d) represented your commitment to a job well past any "sub" level range
e) represented your completion of quests/tasks instead of a simple auction house purchase
f) was mostly great long-lasting pieces that were free

g) ... looked like some nostalgic FF icons

There's plenty of reasons that Artifact/Relic/Empyrean armor is sought after besides it being "blue coat + pointy hat." A large portion of the best-received titles of the franchise completely lacked these classic icons that were mostly just from the first handful of titles. Sure, they existed in function, but they were usually isolated into personas/characters (THF: Locke/Yuffie/Vaan/Rikku/etc.) and only appear to have been brought back aesthetically since in IX and XI (oh yeah X-2) for nostalgic purposes.

We're not relying on red chapeaus with white feathers for the game to succeed. It would be admittedly stupid for them to not eventually introduce some class-specific equipment sets and I honestly expect it in the future sometime (obviously not right off the bat)... While I expect there might be some hints to classic costume design (which tend to be mostly generic fantasy RPG aspects), we're not going to see Gladiator getting a righteous, pearly-white, blessed plate armor set with a crown and it's not going to ultimately matter... as long as it's unique, sweet looking, and useful (or 2/3).


edit: Also... I don't think enough people who played XI cared about or were even familiar with classic FF icons.

[Kaylia]

I don't believe that the same elements have to be present in FFXIV out of obligation to FFXI's success.

Eh, I simply used XI as an example to demonstrate how powerful these icons can be.

There is a reason why I'm talking about the franchise, and not a single game. I don't think FFXI did great justice to the rest of the serie in the first place, and FFXIV isn't doing any better by using even less reference.

[Ezek]

So I see FF:XIV made yahoo news in the "biggest game flops of 2010" >_>;

http://blog.games.yahoo.com/photos/1...lops-of-2010/1

lol.

[Riposte]

No ABP eh? While Elite is up there, I can't recall anything crashing and burning as hard as ABP in the previous decade. It is worse than Hellgate(or Fury or whatever it was called) at least. (Duke Nukem Forever spans more than a decade lolol.)

Oh and anyway, this whole argument about jobs has been about people hating something only because it is different. Seriously bottom level fanboy garbage. FFXIV has enough flaws that we haven't the time to complain about the things which are not bad(thing that are flat-out improvements, rather).

[Kaylia]

Artifact equipment was a popular goal because it:

a) was unique to your job, portraying your character more visually accurate
b) was aesthetically unique and more detailed than any other gear
c) boosted the unique abilities/traits of your job
d) represented your commitment to a job well past any "sub" level range
e) represented your completion of quests/tasks instead of a simple auction house purchase
f) was mostly great long-lasting pieces that were free

g) ... looked like some nostalgic FF icons

There's plenty of reasons that Artifact/Relic/Empyrean armor is sought after besides it being "blue coat + pointy hat." A large portion of the best-received titles of the franchise completely lacked these classic icons that were mostly just from the first handful of titles. Sure, they existed in function, but they were isolated into personas/characters (THF: Locke/Yuffie/Vaan/Rikku/etc.) and only appear to have been brought back since in IX and XI (oh yeah X-2) for nostalgic purposes.

Trying to write as many points as you can as if they were unique and of equal value...lol.

Almost every mmo use some sort of "tiered gear", and they are always popular for the reason mentioned (good stats and they look pretty). However, they are rarely an insensitive for new players to push forward the same way they were in Final fantasy XI. You can't deny this .

It's obviously possible to create a perfectly fine game without reusing anything. However, FFXIV delivered nothing that fan came to expect from the series (a solid story-driven experience). Because of this, you're basically left in a bland world that have nothing to do with "final fantasy" because the game doesn't play as one.

We're not relying on red chapeaus with white feathers for the game to succeed.

I'm not sure what they are relying on to succeed, but it sure isn't working well so far.

Anyway, I could argue that it was never my point to demonstrate that the game success relies on this alone, but since you probably didn't bother reading any of my posts, so I will stop here.

[Toth]

http://blog.games.yahoo.com/photos/1...lops-of-2010/1

lol.

Was just going to post it. The bad press is astonishing lol