FFXIV Flame Wars Thread: because ten threads is not enough threads

[miokomioko]

Trying to find which game has the best gameplay is one thing, saying that nostalgia and icons have no places in a game is another. In fact, it's two completely differents thing that share no relation.

No one ever said it has no place. I said it's no where near as vital as you are suggesting it is and isn't something that would have made any impact on how the game was received either way. I also added it was unrealistic to expect things like "AF" to be in implemented within the first couple months of the game's life. There are so many things that need to be gauged by observing the player base before they can just start throwing in important equipment, quests, battles, etc. If you were thinking "that's what beta is for," no, that is not what betas are for as testers don't represent the play style of the average end customer.

[Kaylia]

I feel like I've already addressed that post in my most recent one(edits included). If you want to say you misunderstood what I was talking about, knock yourself out. There was no implication(no quote) I was talking about Tomino's specific bullshit when you began talking about redeeming qualities. This whole bit is tired by now either way. Just run along.

this whole argument about jobs has been about people hating something only because it is different

There was not a single posts concerning the gameplay over the last 6 pages. You can backpedal all you want, but the argument you're trying to have had nothing to do with what was posted (starting the posts chain I brought up)

I brought up the "no redeeming quality" because I disagreed with your premise that some people hate the game for its lack of "classic feel". People hate the game because it sucks all around and doesn't answer any expectation they might have.

No one ever said it has no place. I said it's no where near as vital as you are suggesting it is and isn't something that would have made any impact on how the game was received either way. I also added it was unrealistic to expect things like "AF" to be in implemented within the first couple months of the game's life. There are so many things that need to be gauged by observing the player base before they can just start throwing in important equipment, quests, battles, etc. If you were thinking "that's what beta is for," no, that is not what betas are for as testers don't represent the play style of the average end customer.

I figured I would skip the part where I moderate my opinion since you ignore it everytime.


Secondly, it's pretty obvious the game failled to meet the deadline and was released too early. That's probably why there was nothing in the beta...I doubt they are hidding the content. Also, I disagree that beta mean little content. Most beta I experienced actually had the whole game, or at least, a significant chunk.


Lastly, where did I suggest it was vital? Here is my first comments in this thread concerning the topic

"It's not that there is anything wrong with a complete restart, but why not build an universe around the main theme of the franchise? It doesnt really take anything away to the game."

No single elements is vital, but they add up quite fast, and they will make a difference eventually.

[miokomioko]

The "main theme of the franchise" is the names/aethetics of shit like Black Mage, White Mage, etc?

[Kaylia]

The "main theme of the franchise" is the names/aethetics of shit like Black Mage, White Mage, etc?

Crystal, airship, classic jobs, chocobo [forest], the summons, the beatiary. If you want to include the second half of the series, add more steampunk/sci-fi, moogle, circle of life or timeloop.

And I'm not saying to add these shit for the sake of adding them, you have to build a world around these elements to make the game feel like a final fantasy.

Or you can attempt something completely new that will fail because you don't know how to fill a world with interesting content.



[edit]
When you play 14, does it remind you of FF7-FF13 in any way?

Where are the midgard, Lindblum, Esthar and archadia in 14? There is not a single town that compare to how lively these place were (huge city, npc walking around, minigame). Where are the dungeons? Every games send you through a cave, a forest, or something to make the plot progress , but not this one. It's just one big field where the quest could take place anywhere.

If you fail at bringing to life the second half of the franchise, you should at least stay true to its origin (class, castle, chococo, crystal and airship)

[Hyan]

Crystal, airship, classic jobs, chocobo [forest], the summons, the beatiary. If you want to include the second half of the series, add more steampunk/sci-fi, moogle, and circle of life or timeloop.

A) "Classic jobs" are not nearly as "important" as you seem to imply. More often than not, they exist only in the way the characters function, and in some cases even that is untrue.

B) The rest is there, one way or another, and will only become more important in the long run. Hell, even XI only got ½ of those things after a while or more.

[miokomioko]

I really don't know why "classic jobs" is thrown into that list when a majority of the installments DON'T HAVE THEM. I think that's what we're basically arguing about here.

Personally, I'd say it's just chocobos, crystals, magic, and summons/espers/avatars/etc. are the themes that are pretty much guaranteed... and we got all of those.

[Riposte]

This argument just happened. Why not just read it over and move on? Anyone half-way intelligent can understand the inanity of such fanboy desires. It is a non-issue.

[Kaylia]

a) I'm not going over this again, just go read previous page. It's pretty dump to think that people have no attachment to these jobs, even if they werent present in [less than] half of the game.

B) In the long run, I will be playing WoW, Starwars, or another games that will deliver a better experience all around. I'm not willing to torture myself for two years and pay 300$ to get an half assed story that probably won't come anywhere close to console FF. The gameplay fail, and the setting fail just as badly

[Kaylia]

I really don't know why "classic jobs" is thrown into that list when a majority of the installments DON'T HAVE THEM. I think that's what we're basically arguing about here.

Personally, I'd say it's just chocobos, crystals, magic, and summons/espers/avatars/etc. are the themes that are pretty much guaranteed... and we got all of those.

1,2,3,4,5,9,11,tactic and most spin off. That's a majority.


Crystal were probably in the game less often than jobs.

[Hyan]

a) I'm not going over this again, just go read previous page. It's pretty dump to think that people have no attachment to these jobs, even if they werent present in [less than] half of the game.

lol, that's what this argument is all about. People just can't let go.

Doesn't mean this is a "bad" thing by any means. Without any retarded fanboy "attachments", this feels quite refreshing.

It's like saying XII 'sucked' because "it didn't feel like an FF". Except here we're talking about a single feature, and not the whole game, obviously.

[Kaylia]

Anyone half-way intelligent can understand the inanity of such fanboy desires. It is a non-issue.

Please, enlight us on the correct way to be entertained by a video game. Tell us why it is wrong for a series to stay true its origin, and offers an universe they can relate to.

What you're saying is completely presumptuous. The things you want in a game are as inane as what the "fanboy" you're speaking of want.

This argument just happened. Why not just read it over and move on

You can repeat it as often as you want, it's not going to make you right. The post I quoted demonstrate that you were the one who couldn't focus on the topic, and that you tried to force the argument into a completely trivial direction. I will leave it at this, because your lack of a global vision is simply alienating.

[Riposte]

lol you are so silly. Make my statements into absolutes(if not outright substituting them) and make it seem like I haven't been explicitly clear in my subject matter. You still haven't grasped anything. The only problem seems to be you being unable to read my posts(or perhaps it is just easier not to).

[Kaylia]

Doesn't mean this is a "bad" thing by any means. Without any retarded fanboy "attachments", this feels quite refreshing.

It's like saying XII 'sucked' because "it didn't feel like an FF". Except here we're talking about a single feature, and not the whole game, obviously.

We are not talking about a single feature here. People don't recognize FF in FFXIV, and they barely did in XI (if you remember ffxi review, that was one of the main critics).


FFXII might have been different from the rest of the main series, but at least, it was close to FF tactic (which is one of the most loved game in the franchise)

[miokomioko]

We were talking about a single feature until you backpeddled your "boo hoo no classic jobs" argument into a "well... little things add up! yeah!" to make yourself sound slightly less ridiculous.

[Kaylia]

BRP, if you want to preach the world how they should enjoy their game, make sure your opinion isnt tainted by hypocrisy. Tell us what are the non-inane way to enjoy a game?

[Kaylia]

We were talking about a single feature until you backpeddled your "boo hoo no classic jobs" argument into a "well... little things add up! yeah!" to make yourself sound slightly less ridiculous.

Are you retarded? It was in my very first post. There isnt a single statement over the last 6 pages that I can't defend, or contradict anything that I've said.


If you want to see backpedalling, check BRP posts who had to refer to a previous conversation not related in any way to our posts to find some sort of defense....a defense that is incredibly weak considering he was doing the exact same thing as the people he criticized

[Riposte]

BRP, if you want to preach the world how they should enjoy their game, make sure your opinion isnt tainted by hypocrisy. Tell us what are the non-inane way to enjoy a game?

People can enjoy the game any way they want. They can mash up the disc and snort it for all the fuck it matters. How people SHOULD play wasn't even considered and you are trying to turn me into a bully. This is desperate and the argument has already basically ended.

I am not even the only one saying it at this point. Correction and others put it quite nicely. And your answer was "AF quests". A joke. (EDIT: My bad, AF armor, I think it was. As FFXIV also has class specific quests)

EDIT: And if you are not concerned about Jobs vs Disciplines there is no reason for you even to be replying to me. I don't give a fuck about what you have to say besides that.

[Riposte]

http://lodestone.finalfantasyxiv.com...f018ec5fb504d2

Ah, very nice surprise. I haven't read it though. Someone make a thread, I don't feel like it.

[Tomino]

I dont like FF14 classes. That's something you can hardly counter because it's personal taste. I'm also happy to know others feel the same as me.
And I'm disliking them because they are BLAND. On this, you are free to reply as much as you like with your own, personal opinion and tastes.
To me, they feel like rip offs from D&D with absolutely no "japanese" twist (save Animist, maybe). They wanted to go west but lost a lot of FF magic in the process; if I want a 2hander, a tank, mage and cleric I can stick to Dragon Age.

Finally, fanboyism and "FF class names" have very little to do with this.
Puppetmaster wasn't in any FF i played and yet, I love the job. It's new, intriguing and something you will never see in WoW. Same as Corsair.
Blue Mage in FF11 was almost entirely re-designed, and it was a welcome change from the standard medieval fantasy. THAT is good design to me.


You do like FF14 classes? I think that's good for you, isnt't it?


EDIT: Also:

The further differentiation of actions to enhance class identities

I'm glad they're paying attention to my "bullshit"

[Riposte]

Well, thank you for pointing out the obvious. While you have your tastes, a lot of your explanation of your taste sucks. For example Final Fantasy jobs were "rip offs" of DnD(as if this is an insult? wtf), dumbed down to fit hardware like other JRPGs(or rather they ripped off WRPGs doing the same thing). In that respect your Dragon Age comment is painful. For FFXI: DRK or WAR or SAM/etc, PLD, BLM/RDM, and WHM/RDM. Rather than go into why I prefer the aesthetics of FFXIV classes(I already did), it is really hard to find comments you can't also apply to FFXIV. Only FFXI's jobs are less developed and more arbitrary, created before this game was. This goes back to something I just said, the easiest comment to make is - "I wish they didn't change it!"

BLU is the most developed of the all the jobs. It wasn't the only one in FFXI with that kind of merit, but it seems like every DoW and DoM is at BLU's level in terms of fitting in nicely in a setting.