FFXIV Flame Wars Thread: because ten threads is not enough threads

[Kaylia]

I am not even the only one saying it at this point. Correction and others put it quite nicely. And your answer was "AF quests". A joke. (EDIT: My bad, AF armor, I think it was. As FFXIV also has class specific quests)

EDIT: And if you are not concerned about Jobs vs Disciplines there is no reason for you even to be replying to me. I don't give a fuck about what you have to say besides that.

I'm not sure why you bring Correction's post here. There was a clear misunderstanding of the question in his first reply, and the follow up demonstrated that these tools can be very powerful when used properly (he admits he liked that part in FFXI, but hated how it was done in FFXIV).


I sincerely doubt a majority of the fanbase wanted something completely fresh. I mean, just take both movies made by Square. Which one was the most succesful? The fanservice one, or the "original" one? Yeah, you guessed it... Hell, I wouldn't even call it fanservice in this case because these elements define the origin of the series. You can pretend it's shallow if you want, but what is not in a game that consist of mashing 3 fucking button to increase your virtual stats?


What next? You will tell me Yoshi's presense is meaningless in Mario series because he isnt there 90% of the time?

[Riposte]

Do continue to take my argument and rewrite it and stretch it to the point of distortion. Throw in some godawful analogies(EDIT: actually, comparisons) too. That will get us somewhere.

[Kaylia]

Oh, I'm sorry. I forgot that what you said 2 posts ago doesn't count. Who cares about the implication of a statement when it's not convenient...


I'm leaving, so have fun arguing that new is always better (since that's pretty much how deep your argument about jobs mechanics is). I will read your shitty insult tomorrow.

[Riposte]

new is always better

Yep! That's what I said!

[Tomino]

While you have your tastes, a lot of your explanation of your taste sucks.

I wonder if you'll ever stop replying like a spoiled 15yrs old boy, to who other opinions "suckorz" with "bullshitz". I consider BG a grown up community with less need to look cool than the average IGN board.

FF jobs were inspired by traditional western fantasy, much because their medieval times weren't exaclty the same as ours.
Difference between "inspired" and "rip off"? The first is taking something as a base step and add your own taste (see: FF5 Black Mage as opposed to western Mage), the latter is copying something with less to none personal interpretation (see: Gladiator and a Dragon Age tank, which are almost identical).

You feel western 2Hander can be comparable to DRK or SAM? Fell free to, but I didnt notice any melee in Dragon Age or WoW using weaponskills with a butterflies twist.

[Riposte]

I wonder if you'll ever stop replying like a spoiled 15yrs old boy, to who other opinions "suckorz" with "bullshitz". I consider BG a grown up community with less need to look cool than the average IGN board.

lol

(To be exact, I didn't say your opinion sucked, but it is really all the same isn't it?)

FF jobs were inspired by traditional western fantasy,

Western Fantasy(Tolkien and others) -> wargames -> DnD -> WRPGs/dungeon crawlers -> Final Fantasy. Maybe they skipped WRPGs when it came to jobs.

(Classes aren't traditional, wtf. Archetypes, sure, which is why classes were so weirdly balanced in the earlier DnD editions.)

much because their medieval times weren't exaclty the same as ours.

LOL

What is that even suppose to mean?! PLEASE don't answer me! It is a crackpot theory anyway.

Difference between "inspired" and "rip off"? The first is taking something as a base step and add your own taste (see: FF5 Black Mage as opposed to western Mage), the latter is copying something with less to none personal interpretation (see: Gladiator and a Dragon Age tank, which are almost identical).

Seriously?! Black Mage is a mage, White mage is a priest. In the first Final Fantasy not only was it blatant "copying", there was no room for any fucking personal interpretation!

What is this "western mage"? Has there only been one type of "wizard" in all of fantasy fiction, WRPGs(and action games, etc), and all tabletop games? Goddamn!

What the hell is up with "Dragon Age" tank? The "Warrior" had a bunch of magic subclasses, almost exactly like Paladin and Dark Knight. FF's Paladin is a blatant RIP OFF of DnD's. Dark Knight is a mix of the sorcerer/evil knight archetype and Berserk. (2handed weapons were great for damage, so all-out characters, like a Barbarian or a "Dark Knight"-like class would use them over a sword and shield.)

And here is what is most important: FFXIV has a shit load of this "interpretation"! More than FFXI and so much more than FFI or any of the early games for that matter. (For example: Each of the DoW and DoM have an unorthodox "school", a guild. These guilds vary from gambling halls to pirate ships to two divided temples(for one class). At FFXI it varies a lot, sometimes they just have important characters who happen to use similar abilities and wear the AF armor. WAR was nothing more than a "Fighter", Gladiator are literal Gladiators. Marauders are pirates. etc. The individual classes are also more coherent in terms of abilities. However this also means you won't be seeing any hybrids, you have to make them.)

You feel western 2Hander can be comparable to DRK or SAM?

Yes. GOOGLE SOME SHIT.

Fell free to, but I didnt notice any melee in Dragon Age or WoW using weaponskills with a butterflies twist.

Dragon Age and WoW aren't even that- I don't even- holy crap! Your idiocy is blowing my mind! What is wrong with your brain?!

[miokomioko]

At FFXI it varies a lot, sometimes they just have important characters who happen to use similar abilities and wear the AF armor. WAR was nothing more than a "Fighter", Gladiator are literal Gladiators. Marauders are pirates. etc. The individual classes are also more coherent in terms of abilities.

This is what I like most about XIV's discipline system. XI had to try pretty hard to build coherent back-story/lore around preset and archaic "classic jobs." A lot more thought went into the purpose and structure of each discipline in XIV. Hell, there's way more meaning behind being a "Puller" for Fisherman's Bottom than carrying out favors for some depressed Bard in an inn for your Choral Justaucorps.

As much as I'd like to see some high-res renditions of Geomancers and whatnot... I find this much more satisfying.

[Hyan]

We are not talking about a single feature here. People don't recognize FF in FFXIV, and they barely did in XI (if you remember ffxi review, that was one of the main critics).

FFXII might have been different from the rest of the main series, but at least, it was close to FF tactic (which is one of the most loved game in the franchise)

XIV feels more like an FF than XII already, lol.

And yeah, sure it was set in Ivalice but different time, different setting, blahblah. It's like they borrowed the art style and races and that's it... Oh wait, how does that feel familiar somehow?

We even got the traditional summons here instead of some weird espers I don't even remember anymore.

I'm only arguing the class system here because to be honest, the rest is pretty obvious and doesn't even need to be mentioned.

[Tomino]

Riposte is the whole point behind your posts proving you don't like my tastes concerning classes?
Because, you know, there is no wrong or right on such matter, so we'd keep going till ff14 ps3 release if that's your way to pass time.

Black Mages are Mages? Well, no. In FF they have a much "darker" tone, they look even scary sometimes.
White Mages are Clerics? I dont agree, Clerics have huge ties to churches, faith, holy icons. White Mage are a eastern take on the whole concept. see also: inspired by Clerics.

Sure this doesnt mean EVERYTHING in FF is fresh new. Warrior, Thief, Bard, etc, pick your favorite.

Now fast forward to FF14:
So Marauders are pirate, ok. Somehow, I have issues associating a massive 2hand axe with a pirate.
Gladiators in the pit? Well, i don't see the typical versatility of actual roman gladiators in the FF14 class, they just look like a common plate tank.
Thaumaturge? They took EVERYTHING which wasn't "magic 101" and give it to the class. It has "warlock like" skills but its name and acts like a cleric.

[Lordender]

It really doesn't matter what SE named the classes the bottom line they still are lackluster, lazy designed and boring. The way it seems like to me this game was supposed to be built for customization but it was executed totally wrong.

SE designed the game for you to be able to be anything you want when you want which sounds fine on paper but here is where this system fails hard. Your expected to carry weapons for every job your going to wanna play(including craft jobs) + repair materials while out on the field and this leads to a huge inventory problem, especially for someone who is into crafting.

Each job takes 2-3 different craft jobs to be able to repair your shit because lets face it, whoever doesn't is going to get called a newb and kicked from a group because they need to go back to town to repair every hour because their weapon is broke. Every DoW/DoM needs 1 craft for weapon, 1 craft for armor and also 1 craft for accessories unless your weapon/armor requires Goldsmithing to repair then you could get away without needing a 3rd DoH job. Combine that nightmare with only 80 slots on you + the meager retainer space which just equals bad design choices.

Where does the laziness in the design come from? The fact they combined certain classes they shouldn't have. Should have just made a BLM and a WHM instead of combining them, should of had a THF and a MNK instead combining them(terrible class is terrible imo) THAU combined with DRK looks really weak to me which is probably why I almost saw no one playing them at all. Then there is this 2H axe wielding class that is nothing like the FF warrior/fighter and looks to have just completely weird mechanic's that leave you saying "what were they thinking?!" Lancer just looked like no one cared to play because I hardly ever saw any. Archer looked to be the most interesting class out of the bunch.

I could just go on and on about the massive laziness of how this game was designed, this game has NO redeeming qualities. The only reason why people are even sticking it out is because of:

1. They are holding out hope that the game gets fixed by PS3 launch to where they will have the upper hand on either newer players or returning players who thought the game was just too fail to play before then.

2. Blind fan girls of SE who can find no wrong and will play it plus defend this massive piece of shit. These are the same people who probably pre-bought 6+ months worth of crysta, built a 1000-1200$ new rig to run this at a good spec.

[miokomioko]

I'm not sure how creating classes that are different from past classes = lazy. Are you sure your not just writing "lazy" where you should be writing "different?" Also, you really undermine yourself by including how you are making these assumptions based on how many people you saw playing a class during a beta test and that you think Archer, the most basic and non-versatile class there is in the game, is the most "interesting."

Additionally, inventory issues have nothing to do with the classes themselves. In regards to your "1." You might want to check out everything they've described regarding the updates coming in November, December, and early-2011. There's very little left to "hope" for... it's "wait" for now.

[Hyan]

I kind of admire you mioko. I can't be bothered to respond to lordender seriously anymore. It's like arguing about religion with a fundamentalist Christian. Not worth it.

[notorious bum]

You three need to go start a fanclub or something

[Elrina]

After the information they just posted on Lodestone, I seriously can't think of anything to honestly complain about right now. (Since I know I did plenty of it earlier.) I still won't be playing till after at least the Nov update, for sure, but I'm convinced. Pretty happy, actually. Even if they drop the ball and screw some of it up, some of the changes that they're making and things they're doing convinces me that if they do, they'll change it again till they get it right.

That stuff may not cover every single issue in/with the game, but it's enough of it and that they're even doing some of it is so unexpected, in my opinion, that I think they'll honestly be doing their best towards making the game better and not just making it "good enough", which makes me pretty happy. All in all, was a nice birthday gift from SE. :3

Edit: And the classes are fine, seriously. I've been reading that entire argument from the beginning and it's ridiculous. It's fleshed out enough to start with, and they'll be doing more to them and adding additional classes. We don't need another version of the Tactics job system, what they gave us as class archetypes is pretty solid. And the additions/changes they're making that are in the patch notes are all they really need to do and continue focusing on (as far as the classes go, at least), these are good ideas, seeing them turn them into more advanced classes is a hell of a lot better than replaying the same jobs yet again.

My only real beef with the class system is that daggers are not swords, and it would have been nice (and cool) to have a class built around the dagger that actually got those thief/rogue type abilities instead of scattering them between other classes. It would have allowed for some more class specific abilities for them (on top of getting steal, sneak attack, etc.), as well as allowing for a few more (lower rank, at least) abilities that meshed better with the classes that currently have them.

[Tomino]

After the information they just posted on Lodestone, I seriously can't think of anything to honestly complain about right now.

I agree with you on this, news today were a welcome addition to this topic. Let's hope they can hit the right spots.

Classes discussion was a game between me and Riposte on who would type the most letters in a single row.

[Alderaan]

Had SE taken XI's classes with the mix and match skills capability of XIV, with a certain limit (say 20), and included a fluid combat system without animation locks, then they would have had gold. Gold Jerry, gold.

This is exactly what Rift is doing and why i'm excited about it. Although they've taken it a step further by only allowing mix and match skills inside the 4 main architypes, Warrior, Cleric, Rogue, Mage. I think going this route makes sure that at least there will be 4 different classes out of the currently available 16, instead of everyone having the same build.

[Hyan]

Had SE taken XI's classes with the mix and match skills capability of XIV, with a certain limit (say 20), and included a fluid combat system without animation locks, then they would have had gold. Gold Jerry, gold.

I don't see why the former would make the game any better for anyone but the "FF purists".

They already took the best class of XI to XIV, BLU. At least in concept so far.

[Alderaan]

Had they gone that route, they would at least hit their target audience in XI players, instead of them just going back to XI.

The whole thing about going for a bigger piece of the pie with casuals was never going to work with what the game is. Content could attract those casuals later if SE ever gets with the times and realizes that no one likes grinding or RNG.

[Hyan]

Had they gone that route, they would at least hit their target audience in XI players, instead of them just going back to XI.

And what would have that accomplished? lol

XI playerbase got smaller, XIV playerbase got larger, +-0.

realizes that no one likes grinding.

Hey, we were all pro-grind a while ago when they introduced the fatigue system. They're getting mixed messages.

[Bluefire]

Not sure if anyone has posted this buuuuuutttttt.....

http://blog.games.yahoo.com/photos/1...0/1#OmgPhoid=2