FFXIV Flame Wars Thread: because ten threads is not enough threads

[Lucavi]

Well, that should go without saying.

[Hyan]

Players who are not satisfied with FFXIV won't necessarily go back to to FFXI. Hell, weren't you the one saying you never go back to older game?

So tricking them into thinking the game is FFXI with FFXI jobs would be a bad move in that case? Better for them to stick with XI if the XIV classes don't appeal to them than play and quit both.

Also, I never talked about myself when I said that :/.

Anyway, it was just an addition to the main point that hosting two mmo cost much more than one. Its not 13$ vs 13$, but 13$-maintenance cost versus 13$-2*maintenance cost

I doubt they can ever bring all the people from XI to XIV so that they could stick to just one MMO. But ya, if that were to happen that would be the best case scenario for them.

[Elcura]

I dunno. A fluid combat system without animation locks would have made both FFXI and FFXIV better for everyone.

Who likes animation locks? Honestly?

I like animation locks more than I like sliding. I doubt it would be much of a problem if there wasn't so much lag, or if avoiding a WS via positioning could be achieved during the WS charge period, and not before.

[Lucavi]

Animation locks are terrible when implemented poorly, which they were (initially) in XI and also in XIV. Lag has much to do with it, as nothing sucks more than trying to string a series of attacks together and having to re-enter commands because of delay, but its also an issue of stiffness. It looks stiff seeing a character using a canned animation over and over again with no regard to the terrain around him/her. There's plenty of lunging forward in XI through a wall or through an inclined hill.

I'm not against target locks, just animations that lock you out of doing anything else until they completely finish. XI got a lot better with it as they refined their system, but I remember back in 04 where I'd get stuck in penta thrust animation and couldn't "cancel" it with a super jump. By the time CoP came out, I could, and go figure, it saved my ass quite a few times.

I know what you mean by sliding, and I'm not a fan of that either. Games like Fallout are notorious for that mess, and it looks far worse than animation locks, but certain classes really don't need animation locks at all. Take the ranger in XI and compare it to a hunter in WoW. Ranger is so stiff and everything feels so delayed when you're purely attacking with a bow. Hunter has freedom of movement, yet the animations look fairly crisp when standing still as well. XIV improved on ranged attacks, but attacking while strafing still is... suspect.

[Kaylia]

So tricking them into thinking the game is FFXI with FFXI jobs would be a bad move in that case? Better for them to stick with XI if the XIV classes don't appeal to them than play and quit both.

Also, I never talked about myself when I said that :/.

I doubt they can ever bring all the people from XI to XIV so that they could stick to just one MMO. But ya, if that were to happen that would be the best case scenario for them.

More people would feel at home if they had access to classic jobs, but that's not related in any way to the point I was making. Beside, how are you drawing the conclusion that it is a bad thing when my post didn't even deal with this.

Ideally, they want players to pay for both game. In reality, it's not going to happen outside the hardcore endgame fanbase which is a minority. Shifting the fanbase toward a game that, unless they turn the tide around, will perform poorly isn't viable. They receive the same subcription fee, but spend a lot more.

The purpose of FFXIV was to increase the total amount of subscription (by a significant margin) 13$ for 13$ (with its implication) would be a loss.

[Hyan]

More people would feel at home if they had access to classic jobs, but that's not related in any way to the point I was making. Beside, how are you drawing the conclusion that it is a bad thing when my post didn't even deal with this.

Because if they were to play XIV instead of XI because "it feels at home" and then quit because of it's current quality, according to you they wouldn't go back to XI either. SE would lose in that case.

[Kaylia]

I like animation locks more than I like sliding. I doubt it would be much of a problem if there wasn't so much lag, or if avoiding a WS via positioning could be achieved during the WS charge period, and not before.

Animation lock quickly become alienating if the game involve reflex. Responsive gameplay is almost always a better thing than prettier animation.

[Hyan]

Responsive gameplay is almost always a better thing than prettier animation.

It's such an immersion killer though.

One day I hope it won't be just one or the other when it comes to MMO's.

[Kaylia]

Because if they were to play XIV instead of XI because "it feels at home" and then quit because of it's current quality, according to you they wouldn't go back to XI either. SE would lose in that case.

FFXI: ~300k
FF franchise: millions of fans.

FFXIV was not designed to steal players from FFXI, that would be a terrible idea for the reason I stated above (duplicate service with no additional gain). However, because FFXI's players are also fan of the franchise, you're bound to lure many of them in the process. It's not something you can avoid when you target the same demographics.

The extremely specific situation you mentioned is one of the many reasons why a particular transition from FFXI to FFXIV could go wrong. You won't receive a new montly fee from FFXI player, you can only keep it or lose it. That's exactly why I said there was a risk involved (with no gain) in my first post.

When you target a broad audience, there is not a single choice that will make unanimity...you just have to go with the one favored by the majority. Because fan of the series (and that include ffxi fan) usually appreciate the old jobs, having them around would increase the overall satisfaction, even if a minority might get pissed off because they wanted something completely new, or because it doesn't live up to their expectation.

It's such an immersion killer though.

One day I hope it won't be just one or the other when it comes to MMO's.

It is, but the game can still be immersive when designed properly.

If I was able to get immersed by 16 bit sprite and background, choppy high quality animation is the least of my worries.

[Toth]

Didn't SE design the game so people wouldn't be stuck in specific jobs like 14? And yet so far all I see are people doing the same exact moves and abilities, because they are the only setups that work well. It is also hard to see how jobs can specialize. Sure, you can set your Conjurer to just healing and buffing spells but what good will that be when another conjurer can set minimal amounts of those spells and an array of nuking spells and perform far better in a party due to their DD? Where does a uniqueness factor come in so players are actually different.

Do any class specific talents actually influence specialization of abilities anyway?

[Nevex]

Even if FFXIV had the side-effect of stealing the whole FFXI playerbase you have to consider that FFXI isn't going to last much longer anyways. People get tired of playing the same game for years eventually.

[Hyan]

Tell that to the folks still playing UO/EQ etc. >_>;

If it's still profitable it's worth keeping around.

[Ksandra]

Even if FFXIV had the side-effect of stealing the whole FFXI playerbase you have to consider that FFXI isn't going to last much longer anyways. People get tired of playing the same game for years eventually.

EQ and EQ2


As much as I think ffxiv is failing hard atm, I always find statements like this rather silly.

Ulitma Online is still being played. MMOs very rarely "get shut down". In the beginning I could believe people thinking that there are life spans to mmos without knowing any better. At this point people need to realize that once a game is underway it doesn't take much to keep it running, and as long as companies are making a profit off them they will keep going forever.

^ said it earlier and I'll keep saying it. MMOs don't die unless the company dies, and then even some other company may pick it up (Mythic bought UO ages ago) to keep it going.

[Alderaan]

Take the ranger in XI and compare it to a hunter in WoW. Ranger is so stiff and everything feels so delayed when you're purely attacking with a bow. Hunter has freedom of movement, yet the animations look fairly crisp when standing still as well. XIV improved on ranged attacks, but attacking while strafing still is... suspect.

I'll compare it to Aion since i've not played WoW. I can kite elite mobs forever and solo them effectively while never standing still. Then i tried XIV's ranger, and it's just as bad at XI's with it's stiffness. I was hoping for fluid.

[Riposte]

Because, you know, there is no wrong or right on such matter,

Yes, there is. One must explain their taste properly if they expect it to be taken seriously. Right now I am picking yours apart thanks to your failure to justify it.

Black Mages are Mages? Well, no. In FF they have a much "darker" tone, they look even scary sometimes.

You have no experience on Mages. There is no excuse for the bullshit you are pumping out. There are scary mages in fucking Disney movies. Just think NECROMANCER or BLOOD MAGE. Arcane magic! Witches! Sorcerers!

EDIT: Actually FF Black Mages are PG friendly! They wear a big lovable hat and don't send insects down people's throats or turn them inside out. The darkest thing about them is their name.

White Mages are Clerics? I dont agree, Clerics have huge ties to churches, faith, holy icons. White Mage are a eastern take on the whole concept. see also: inspired by Clerics.

In FFXI WHMs are tied to churches, faith, and holy icons. Though within the game-world it is, naturally, inconsistent. In other games, complexities like that aren't even explored. In FFI and on White Mages are fucking priest! It cannot be more obvious. They even use hammers like a cleric! (Priests restricted to bludgeon weapons didn't exist before DnD)

Sure this doesnt mean EVERYTHING in FF is fresh new. Warrior, Thief, Bard, etc, pick your favorite.

There are maybe a few exceptions to the rule, like Blue Mage. However, Final Fantasy jobs are as "generic" as FFXIV or more so.

So Marauders are pirate, ok. Somehow, I have issues associating a massive 2hand axe with a pirate.

Because it isn't a copy-paste concept doofus. Anyway, just imagine Vikings if you are having trouble.

Gladiators in the pit? Well, i don't see the typical versatility of actual roman gladiators in the FF14 class, they just look like a common plate tank.

So what?

Thaumaturge? They took EVERYTHING which wasn't "magic 101" and give it to the class. It has "warlock like" skills but its name and acts like a cleric.

You mean non-elemental magic? How is this less unique than a Mage or Cleric-expy?

Tomino, you are funniest poster here. Keep it up!

[Kaylia]

Even if FFXIV had the side-effect of stealing the whole FFXI playerbase you have to consider that FFXI isn't going to last much longer anyways. People get tired of playing the same game for years eventually.

The population of a successful mmo doesnt decay that fast. People do get tired of the same gameplay, but they also have trouble quitting...so it balances out. FFXI still had many years in it, especially if they manage to pull a few decent updates like they did with abyssea

Also, FFXIV would suffer from the same decay. Someone who jump the boat won't necessarily play for another 8 years. I agree you can probably secure a few additional months, but I don't think the effect is that large on a long run

Didn't SE design the game so people wouldn't be stuck in specific jobs like 14? And yet so far all I see are people doing the same exact moves and abilities, because they are the only setups that work well. It is also hard to see how jobs can specialize. Sure, you can set your Conjurer to just healing and buffing spells but what good will that be when another conjurer can set minimal amounts of those spells and an array of nuking spells and perform far better in a party due to their DD? Where does a uniqueness factor come in so players are actually different.

Do any class specific talents actually influence specialization of abilities anyway?

Only BRP can be fooled by this apparent illusion of freedom. Being what you want sound great in theory, but when it come to balancing the gameplay, it's simply impossible since there is too many parameters. You will systematically end up with a generic that offer no challenge and where your decision are entirely cosmetic (ex: city of hero, champion online), or you will end up forcing players into a few specific tree/build because everything else is not optimal.

[miokomioko]

Again, we're getting back to the fact that "freedom" does not carry the same meaning in video game development as it does in the good 'ol US of A. The misunderstanding that made everyone throw a fit about that fatigue video using the word.

Your... predictions... are also based on a very limited style of play. Perhaps there will be a generic build for the very limit amount of important and difficult battles in end-game. I understand it's hard to get your head out of just how you would play or what content you would be focused on, but come on. As much as you personally do not care about them, there's more things to do than fight Tiamat and Khimaira.

[Riposte]

lol Why the fuck am I even being brought up!? That wasn't even discussed.

No matter how it turns out giving a player more options is a good thing. Unbalance cuts out many options and that's why it is important to do some balancing. Ultimately though, FFXIV's system gives an insane amount of options and despite unbalances(which are inevitable in almost every game) it will come up with a viable amount of builds. The act of making those builds will become more interesting.

[Kaylia]

Redeeming values of the discipline system:
*Takes the class combination mechanics of FFXI and pushes it further and makes it deeper

.

[Riposte]

Okay?