FFXIV Flame Wars Thread: because ten threads is not enough threads

[Hyan]

No shit sherlock, nobody is going to pay for a beta test, even for most fanboys out there. Why should anyone cut these clowns some slack for implementing basic shit that comes with every MMO launch(even f2p), 4+ months later?

Why should anyone play a game they find fun indeed?

If it's fun in 2011, who the fuck cares whether it was in 2010 or not?

Oh yes, the irrational idiots do. "The company hurt me so much, my life depended on XIV and then they ruined it".

Granted, I don't see many of you playing either way. Gotta cling to something I guess, and that seems to be the "should have been like this from the start"-mantra.

[notorious bum]

Because there are plenty of other more qualified time wasters in the gaming catalog. Why take a risk in 2011 with such a notoriously underwhelming MMO dev team and possibly end up with egg on your face, again.

Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice.....you fool me once, I can't get fooled again!

[Hyan]

Because there are plenty of other more qualified time wasters in the gaming catalog. Why take a risk in 2011 with such a notoriously underwhelming MMO dev team and possibly end up with egg on your face, again.

FFXI and WoW... and?

You're talking like the only "underwhelming" dev team in the world is working on this game. Lol.

You'll most likely end up with egg on your face no matter what you do.

[Kaylia]

I don't think you got my point. Trying to get it across to you will be a nightmare, I just know it! More complexities does make balancing harder, but it also increases the potential of depth. Making builds become more interesting because there are more choices to make. Even before we find out what sucks, we still get more combinations to think about.

An upside to this is that even though it becomes harder to find a balance, because there are more combinations balance matters less.

Of course I'm not getting it...Your point is always beyond the grasp of anyone who disagree with you.

When you ask for complexity, it's obvious you have D&D in mind with its near infinite possibilities That's what you like, and most likely where you get the idea that "complex is better". From a role playing standpoint, I see nothing wrong with this, and many people enjoy this. However, I disagree with your statement that an increasing complexity mean more depth for multiple reasons.

After a certain point, the importance of every single choice is greatly diminished. The problem moves from finding the synergy between x, y, and z to following a more general guideline that is easily optimized. In this scenario, having more abilities succesfully decrease the overall complexity of the system by shifting the problem to another level.

If you allow me to make an analogy to physics, solving a 6-body problem is almost always easier than solving a three-body problems simply because you can ignore all the coupling in the more complex one. It's the same deal here, except you can handle a little more 3 or 6.


Secondly, the more abilities you have, the harder it is to come up with something original and uniques. It rarely takes long before you reach the point where adding additional ability doesnt increase the amount of interesting combinations. Having choices is meaningless when the differences is limited to aethetics and some fine tuning.

These 2 points combined clearly show that after a certain point, there is nothing to gain from additional complexity. If you also include the increasing difficulty of creating challenging and balanced content that work with every "combination", adding more choices doesn't sound like a good idea.

Now, you could make an argument that FFXIV didn't reach that point, but imo, FFXI was already way past it.

EDIT: Quests have as much direction as guildleves, but are scarcer. Perhaps the same could be said of behests.

Quests are the only thing I enjoy about FFXIV, even if it's not something I would pay montly fee for.

[Charismatic]

FFXI and WoW... and?

Every korean grindfest on the market.
Yes, they are better games than FFXIV is right now.

[Hyan]

Every korean grindfest on the market.
Yes, they are better games than FFXIV is right now.

Oh how extremely relevant. Please do go on!

[Eaglestrike]

http://blog.games.yahoo.com/photos/1...lops-of-2010/1

lol.

There's a guy that commented there talking about how XI/XIV aren't "bad games", make excellent contributions to the FF series and in another update XIV will be an awesome game! Then his next comment is to "lol @ FFVII fanboys"

...

[Eaglestrike]

FFXI and WoW... and?

You're talking like the only "underwhelming" dev team in the world is working on this game. Lol.

You'll most likely end up with egg on your face no matter what you do.

Both DDO and LOTRO are playable games, therefore they're better than FFXIV. They're also both FREE TO PLAY. So you don't even need to pay anything to test them. I've played both, DDO certainly isn't for me, and I'm not a huge LOTRO fan, so I didn't stick with either long. However, I played both for far more time than I was able to put into FFXIV.

[Hyan]

Both DDO and LOTRO are playable games, therefore they're better than FFXIV. They're also both FREE TO PLAY. So you don't even need to pay anything to test them. I've played both, DDO certainly isn't for me, and I'm not a huge LOTRO fan, so I didn't stick with either long. However, I played both for far more time than I was able to put into FFXIV.

You're both partially missing the point I was trying to make there.

As far as I'm concerned, DDO and LOTRO are pretty shit (or too similar to WoW, so you'd rather just play it anyway).

When 2011 rolls around, and it's time to "take the risk" and try out XIV again, and the other possibilities are WoW, FFXI and these rather crappy games, why not take the risk and try it out? In the worst case you'll be underwhelmed once again just like with these other games, korean grindfests especially included.

Of course you're better off checking out these new shiny games coming out first, but I don't see why they wouldn't follow the same trend the MMO's before them did. Of course things may be different, and in that case it's too bad for SE. I just don't think that's going to happen, at least in the long term.

[Eaglestrike]

You're both partially missing the point I was trying to make there.

As far as I'm concerned, DDO and LOTRO are pretty shit (or too similar to WoW, so you'd rather just play it anyway).

When 2011 rolls around, and it's time to "take the risk" and try out XIV again, and the other possibilities are WoW, FFXI and these rather crappy games, why not take the risk and try it out? In the worst case you'll be underwhelmed once again just like with these other games, korean grindfests especially included.

Of course you're better off checking out these new shiny games coming out first, but I don't see why they wouldn't follow the same trend the MMO's before them did. Of course things may be different, and in that case it's too bad for SE. I just don't think that's going to happen, at least in the long term.

How exactly are they pretty shit? Googling for MMO numbers gave me 500k for FFXI and 300k for LOTRO, LOTRO has gotten MORE people since going free-to-play and FFXI has been losing some since that report. So numbers are fairly similar. As well, over half of FFXI is Japanese players, and we're talking about US/EU players of what they'd like to try out. Which means that in that demographic, LOTRO is more popular than FFXIV. Add on to the fact that it's FREE to try it out, instead of having to pay $40-60 to purchase the game and another $15/month to keep playing. Why would they take that risk before exhausting the other viable options?

Another interesting bit, as I'm reading one blog about top MMO game of the year, etc. awards...FFXI isn't even on their list, they name like 5 MMO's and FFXI isn't one of them. Maybe you should consider that most people outside of the FFXI circle atm don't hold FFXI or any FF game in high regard like you do.

[Hyan]

How exactly are they pretty shit? Googling for MMO numbers gave me 500k for FFXI and 300k for LOTRO, LOTRO has gotten MORE people since going free-to-play and FFXI has been losing some since that report. So numbers are fairly similar. As well, over half of FFXI is Japanese players, and we're talking about US/EU players of what they'd like to try out. Which means that in that demographic, LOTRO is more popular than FFXIV. Add on to the fact that it's FREE to try it out, instead of having to pay $40-60 to purchase the game and another $15/month to keep playing. Why would they take that risk before exhausting the other viable options?

Well, when I use WoW as the indicator, they're pretty damn crap. LOTRO hasn't gotten an update in for-fucking-ever, aside from the F2P patch, and the fact they've been made F2P tells us something about how these games are actually doing these days. Why the hell would you want to play something crappy if there are better alternatives out there? Like I said, it's WoW or FFXI and the rest are full of shit. You can clear LOTRO in like a month, casually.

When you've played one of them, you've played them all. They're not exactly as viable options as you seem to imply.

Ok there is also EVE but fuck that game.

Another interesting bit, as I'm reading one blog about top MMO game of the year, etc. awards...FFXI isn't even on their list, they name like 5 MMO's and FFXI isn't one of them. Maybe you should consider that most people outside of the FFXI circle atm don't hold FFXI or any FF game in high regard like you do.

Yes, but I didn't want to just include WoW because that makes the whole genre look hilariously bad yet it's painfully accurate.

[Charismatic]

Oh how extremely relevant. Please do go on!

Because FFXIV is the only game to get updates, dumbfuck.

[Hyan]

Because FFXIV is the only game to get updates, dumbfuck.

Oh yes, these f2p games are going to become something amazing once they implement cash shop dyes and another instance to grind in.

Haha.

The fact is that XIV isn't going to get left behind, it's going to catch up. At least when it comes to Korean F2P's. Lol.

Always so hostile~

[Eaglestrike]

Well, when I use WoW as the indicator, they're pretty damn crap. LOTRO hasn't gotten an update in for-fucking-ever, aside from the F2P patch, and the fact they've been made F2P tells us something about how these games are actually doing these days. Why the hell would you want to play something crappy if there are better alternatives out there? Like I said, it's WoW or FFXI and the rest are full of shit. You can clear LOTRO in like a month, casually.

When you've played one of them, you've played them all. They're not exactly as viable options as you seem to imply.

Ok there is also EVE but fuck that game.



Yes, but I didn't want to just include WoW because that makes the whole genre look hilariously bad yet it's painfully accurate.

Actually, the reason I even mention LOTRO is because my friends have been playing it since it went f2p. They were originally lifetime subscribers (well, two of them) and the 3 of them have been going through on new characters. They're up to 55 by now, not at the level cap. They play almost every single day from 6-7ish to 10-12ish. They're all good players, mostly know what they're doing/where to go but they're not through all the content just yet, playing casually. And they haven't even begun raiding. That's what, two months of casual play and they're not done? Hmm, odd how it's not your 1 month of casual play.

I played LOTRO to 15, it was fairly different than WoW. It actually was a bit like FFXI with needless grinds! Use Battle Shout 300 times to unlock a trait! YES! But I think that's mostly a f2p mechanic.

And actually, the reason Turbine took LOTRO f2p is because when DDO went f2p they EARNED MORE MONEY. The same thing is happening with LOTRO. More people try out the game for free and then go ahead and spend some money for some perks/content/etc. LOTRO is pretty much the #2 US MMO and was making money just fine, but they changed the model because it works. I'm actually a bit scared that the subscription based model may end up dying out because f2p is getting so common these days.

You still missed my point. The majority of people looking at MMO's don't give two shits about an FF title at all. Honestly, they don't. My friends don't even care for me mentioning the games. They're longtime nerds, played paper and pencil DnD (and still do on rare occasion) but have absolutely no interest in an FF title at all. Spend some time in WoW, there are LOTS of people who either don't care about the FF title or aren't even aware of it. But maybe that says more about how popular WoW is. Us people here on BG are the niche market for FF. Sure, the title overall is popular, but not everyone really cares about an MMO for it. I mean just look at the sales vs subscription numbers for console games vs FFXI.

[Eaglestrike]

Interesting double post I got there, I clicked once and went to another tab...

[Riposte]

What I am talking about, possibility space, applies to more than roleplaying. DnD is too specific for what I have in mind.

After a certain point, the importance of every single choice is greatly diminished.

That diminishing is also very subtle and it begins immediately with even the smallest "negative" change. The exact point you are talking about is actually hard to reach, FFXI didn't get that far at least.

When you say synergy, I assume you mean that I could say that x means "the class system", y "the level design", and etc. I never said that isn't of importance. This is why you are not getting it. In the same respect you could say FFXIV "has a deep class system, but poor blah blah". Which rings true. In the rawest example(which is where this all started) FFXIV with FFXI jobs is less interesting than FFXIV.

Ultimately, you'd take something like the FFXIV class system and build a better game around it for the sequel(aka updates). Or someone can copy it and add it to another game. You'd still continue to add complexities.

Secondly, the more abilities you have, the harder it is to come up with something original and uniques.

I am not sure what you mean. Unless two abilities are exactly the same, some form of complexity is added. For example you can turn a duality into a whole spectrum. As long as precision has a benefit it works out.

If you mean standing out aesthetically, like the difference between (the "iconic" lol) rock, paper, and scissors, that kind of value is secondary. It doesn't lead to a deeper system.

[Hyan]

Actually, the reason I even mention LOTRO is because my friends have been playing it since it went f2p. They were originally lifetime subscribers (well, two of them) and the 3 of them have been going through on new characters. They're up to 55 by now, not at the level cap. They play almost every single day from 6-7ish to 10-12ish. They're all good players, mostly know what they're doing/where to go but they're not through all the content just yet, playing casually. And they haven't even begun raiding. That's what, two months of casual play and they're not done? Hmm, odd how it's not your 1 month of casual play.

I played LOTRO to 15, it was fairly different than WoW. It actually was a bit like FFXI with needless grinds! Use Battle Shout 300 times to unlock a trait! YES! But I think that's mostly a f2p mechanic.

Maybe you know something I don't, but I noticed no difference. Maybe the animations were worse, but I liked the environments and the setting better. Still, whatever LOTRO brings to the table WoW does better, which is what matters. And I don't consider WoW that good of a game, so that's not exactly acceptable.

I don't understand how it is possible they haven't exhausted the content yet, but I won't doubt your words.

And actually, the reason Turbine took LOTRO f2p is because when DDO went f2p they EARNED MORE MONEY. The same thing is happening with LOTRO. More people try out the game for free and then go ahead and spend some money for some perks/content/etc. LOTRO is pretty much the #2 US MMO and was making money just fine, but they changed the model because it works. I'm actually a bit scared that the subscription based model may end up dying out because f2p is getting so common these days.

I doubt it. Not many new people entered the game after 3 years, and the existing customers were running out of content, which leads to boredom, which leads to quitting. I don't think they had an option there.

[miokomioko]

Believe it or not, there's a decent amount of people that care about story/lore/etc. For myself, for example, WoW does not deliver any story that I would ever give a shit about in any way. XI, XIV, and LOTRO do.

[Hyan]

I guess it's easier to care about LOTR lore than Warcraft lore if you aren't familiar with the latter.

[Riposte]

WoW is one of the ugliest games to ever gain success and the setting couldn't be more stupid, but they seem to do some cool things with story(in respect to MMOs). The events they do are interesting. Though the fact they are both temporary and important annoys me.