FFXIV Flame Wars Thread: because ten threads is not enough threads

**Kaylia** · 2010-11-13 03:30

Originally Posted by Riposte

What I am talking about, possibility space, applies to more than roleplaying. DnD is too specific for what I have in mind.

That diminishing is also very subtle and it begins immediately with even the smallest "negative" change. The exact point you are talking about is actually hard to reach, FFXI didn't get that far at least.

When you say synergy, I assume you mean that I could say that x means "the class system", y "the level design", and etc. I never said that isn't of importance. This is why you are not getting it. In the same respect you could say FFXIV "has a deep class system, but poor blah blah". Which rings true. In the rawest example(which is where this all started) FFXIV with FFXI jobs is less interesting than FFXIV.

Ultimately, you'd take something like the FFXIV class system and build a better game around it for the sequel(aka updates). Or someone can copy it and add it to another game. You'd still continue to add complexities.

Do you believe having 8 differents abilities (bar-element) is more complex than having only three (let's call them bar-will/fortitude/reflex?) If your answer is yes, that's probably why our opinion are irreconcilable.

When I was talking about duplicate, that's exactly what I meant. I understand the number of combinations increase exponentially with new additions, but the decision aren't more difficult to take if you know what you're looking for.

This is the reason why having more abilities doesn't increase the complexity of the problem. If you're trying to deal the most damage, you will simply filter your list by damage and pick the top one. If you are trying to be stamina efficient, you will filter your list by damage/stamina and pick the top one.

What truly increase the system complexity is not the total amount of skills, but the amount of meaningful variable you're trying to optimize (ex: having stamina and mp is harder to optimize than mp alone). You could have 10 billions skills, if attacks power is the only difference, the system is pretty fucking simple.

I am not sure what you mean. Unless two abilities are exactly the same, some form of complexity is added. For example you can turn a duality into a whole spectrum. As long as precision has a benefit it works out.

If you mean standing out aesthetically, like the difference between (the "iconic" lol) rock, paper, and scissors, that kind of value is secondary. It doesn't lead to a deeper system

Have you played Champion Online (or city of heroes to a lesser extent)?

Both games offers a wide variety of uniques skills and abilities (lightning, super strength, beam, magic, martial art, minions), but the overall dps they produce is too similar to worry about making the best choices.

Of course, it's not a bad design choice since it let the player build the super hero he wants and perform well with it (which is the whole point of the game), but it's a good example of a system that has multiple skills where the depth is only cosmetic.

If you're designing only 10 skills, it will be easy to make 10 skills that deal with differents thing (one might deal with movement speed, another with damage, a third one with mitigation...). However, if you're dealing with 30, 40, 50 skills, you're bound to get repeat. If the game isn't balanced, you go with the top one. If it is, you pick the prettiest one.

**Kaylia** · 2010-11-13 03:34

Originally Posted by miokomioko

World of Warcraft's art direction is some of the most sophomoric crap I've ever seen in such a popular game.

Do you wear a beret and drink quality wine while playing FXIV?

**Kaylia** · 2010-11-13 04:02

Originally Posted by Elrina

Oh, that isn't all it is, I've seen videos and watched people play before as well. It isn't just the characterss, it's the style, although I will admit it's more the models than the rest. But you can't really play the game without a character or dealing with npcs or killing mobs, eh? The effects and everything else can be nice, and I've seen some pretty scenery, but yeah.

How am I supposed to argue with someone who hasnt even played the game? Hating the art is fine, but not wanting to play a game because of the art is....I don't understand this.

Anyway, does the game really look that bad to you? (graphics update)

Spoiler: show

[edit]
And mioko, where is the sophomoric crap here? The oversized citadel? Or maybe riding a dragon?

**Elrina** · 2010-11-13 04:32

Originally Posted by Kaylia

How am I supposed to disagree with someone who hasnt even played the game? Hating the art is fine, but not wanting to play a game because of the art is....I don't understand....

Anyway, does the game really look that bad to you? The gameplay might look a bit more hectic, but it is actually challenging and potentially fun if you can get past the visual .

Spoiler: show

[edit]
And mioko, where is the sophomoric crap here? The big moon maybe? Or the oversized citadel?

You aren't supposed to disagree, because I wasn't arguing with you. I was simply letting you know my opnion, why I never wanted to play the game. And that I felt that not liking the style of a game is a valid reason in and of itself to not want to play it, the quality of said art being irrelevant. I didn't even really say I hated it, just that I didn't really like it enough that I never had the desire to sit and devote a significant portion of my time towards playing a game filled with it.

Some of those screenshots are really pretty, but again, I'd already admitted I had seen some pretty scenery. That doesn't change the fact that all (or the vast majority, anyway) of the character models (PCs, NPCs, and mobs) look like ass, and not because of the quality of the graphics. Sure, you can spend some time exploring and enjoying the scenery completely zoomed out from your character, but you'll have to look at it the majority of the time, and you can't avoid npcs and mobs if you actually want to play the game.

And I realize that there is a lot of potential fun in it. I know many people both irl and whom I've met online that played it, some who still do, including my fiancee almost daily. I was seriously considering just trying it and checking out the content for 3~6 months, last month, but after watching her play for about an hour one night I just couldn't convince myself dropping $100~ on it (for the game and all expansions through Cata, naturally) was worth it.

And I'm glad I didn't, because now SE has given me reason to check out XIV again in December, and if all goes well I'll be happy with it after all, so no harm no foul.

Edit: And I could be wrong, but I think he was referring to the fact that it seems like the art direction originated from a teenager's (young teenager's) view of how a fantasy world would look, rather than an adult's or even older teen's view. All you have to really do is read through some fantasy fiction and note the difference in tone and description between material aimed at young adults (younger teens) and adults. Both the reading level and maturity of the way the worlds are described, even if they both contain high fantasy elements like elves, dwarves and trolls. Dragonlance or Forgotten Realms vs the older Shannara books or Memory, Sorrow and Thorn. You can't really draw a direct parallel, analogies kinda fail, and it's possible I'm wrong about what he meant, but that's part of how I feel about it. It doesn't make that bad, especially some of the scenery, just not as good as it could be if it were written (drawn, whatever) at a higher grade level. And since it's all visual input, your imagination isn't really able to make up for that in this.

**miokomioko** · 2010-11-13 04:53

When I say sophomoric, I mean the whole game looks to me like it's trying to get a "bad ass!" remark from 12 year old boys who's only sense of style is emulating comic book cliches. If you know what I mean. Either way, it's probably my distaste for fantasy settings that are extremely heavy on the "fantasy" part (weapons way too fucking big for anyone to carry, armor with obnoxious protrusions, creatures with an absurd amount of horns/spikes, skeletons with mean looks on their faces and glowing eyes, and all those other cliches). It always reminds me of when Mike Krahulik draws that ridiculous Darkraven Bloodguy or whatever sarcastic exaggeration. That, and shit like Darksiders, God of War, and so on.

This is why I really enjoy the costume/weapon/creature/environment design, etc. of 11, 12, 13, 14.

**Alderaan** · 2010-11-13 05:09

Originally Posted by Kaylia

Hating the art is fine, but not wanting to play a game because of the art is....I don't understand this.

While i normally agree with you, art style is just as important to me as gameplay. If i'm not into how a game looks, then what's the point? It's the reason i can't play WoW or XIV.

Give me XIV's art style with WoW's gameplay mechanics and we're talking.

But then that's the trick isn't it, making an MMO as fluid as WoW without it looking as shitty. Still waiting.

**Kaylia** · 2010-11-13 05:35

@elrina
Actually, you can disagree with an opinion if the reasoning behind it is weak. You can't deny the feelings that lead to such opinion, but the statement itself is still debatable. There would be no debate in philosophy or politics otherwise!

The camera distance in these screenshots (except the 2nd one) is what I'm normally using...actually, 6/8 are gameplay screenshot that I took while traveling around. It might appears like a zoom out if you're used to ffxi/ffxiv camera distance, but there is no point zooming closer since it reduce the field of vision considerably, and you don't want that.

I know Mioko is talking about the the crude humor often present in Blizzard game, but you would need to be retarded to believe it represent a majority of what WoW has to offer. His comment was just intellectual masturbation over his idea that playing FFXIV make him a better person.

[edit]
I don't believe any mmo on the market can be compared to a book in term of depth. They all have rich lore, but none offer deep characters or well written story. FFXIV feel more serious because the game take itself seriously (unlike WoW), but I wouldnt say it was written at a higher grade level.

**Elrina** · 2010-11-13 05:43

Fantasy is best, imo, when it's trying to emulate the "fantasy" element in a realistic fashion. Something that is scientifically consistent to it's own world. Types of magic have set rules which govern them, physics are still present, the world is built in a way that is consistent with itself and all of the creations inside of it are believable. The better it can do that, the better it is. It wasn't really about the humor.

Like the examples Mioko gave, things that break the consistency of the world in a way that stop making it believable and make you remember that it's just fantasy aren't cool. This is usually more important in a written story but (and actually thinking about it because of this brief discussion) I think it's important in an MMO as well. If you're going to truly world build, the better you accomplish making the world feel real, the better off you are.

Edit: Oh, and an opinion is an opinion is an opinion. Subjective thoughts are subjective. Disagreeing is fine, but arguing or trying to disprove something stated as such is silly. The theories, reasoning or facts behind the opinion? Sure. Being able to tell the difference between something stated as an opinion, theory or fact without needing to be told which it is helps though.

**solracht** · 2010-11-13 05:58

I don't know where you guys saw anything even related to humor or writing.

Pretty sure he was talking about things like this:

Spoiler: show

Every single piece of visual armor in that game feels like it was made to make you go "omg shiny" or "omg cool". Some people like that, some people get tired of that. There aren't many items that don't feel overdone.

Personally I don't care about this, and I think the designs are mostly consistent with their setting, but you can't expect everyone to agree with the visual style all of this creates, just like you can't expect everyone to like the FFXIV class names.

**Elrina** · 2010-11-13 06:10

Originally Posted by Kaylia

I know Mioko is talking about the the crude humor often present in Blizzard game

That's where I saw the reference to humor. And I was using writing as an analogy to the art, as an alternate view from a different artistic medium. But like I said as I did it, the analogy kinda failed, the way Mioko described it was better.

And the designs may be consistent with their setting, but they still break the realism, which kills the escapism, imo.

The whole conversation is (at least from my side of this) about the style Blizzard is using/has used for it's art, and the direction it takes.

@ Kaylia ~ I agree, you can't really compare most MMOs to a well written book, but there is enough world building going on that you should be able to. The stories may not reach the same heights, since when all the text is ripped out, even if you added descriptive explanation for the lack of visual information, it's generally all short story length. Unless the single story spanned like 6~8 years worth of development or something (way too long to drag something out in an MMO). Regardless, the analogy failed. It wasn't about the writing in the games, although maybe it taking itself "more seriously" is part of what helps prevent it from "overdoing" a lot of things.

**Kaylia** · 2010-11-13 06:31

Originally Posted by miokomioko

When I say sophomoric, I mean the whole game looks to me like it's trying to get a "bad ass!" remark from 12 year old boys who's only sense of style is emulating comic book cliches. If you know what I mean. Either way, it's probably my distaste for fantasy settings that are extremely heavy on the "fantasy" part (weapons way too fucking big for anyone to carry, armor with obnoxious protrusions, creatures with an absurd amount of horns/spikes, skeletons with mean looks on their faces and glowing eyes, and all those other cliches). It always reminds me of when Mike Krahulik draws that ridiculous Darkraven Bloodguy or whatever sarcastic exaggeration. That, and shit like Darksiders, God of War, and so on.

This is why I really enjoy the costume/weapon/creature/environment design, etc. of 11, 12, 13, 14.

There is 7 fucking burnings skulls on my armor, do you have any idea how badass I am?

WoW rarely take itself seriously. It has a very cartoony look that can look ridiculous at time, but it rarely come out as "badass" in my opinion (like God of War). It's closer to the self parody than anything else when it is like that (which is not always). At least, that's how I feel about the design choice most of the time.

I also prefer the medieval feel of FFXIV when it come to armors and clothes (especially with the graphic engine to support it), but for the environment, it's the other way around. Actually, FFXIV has one of the dullest looking world I've seen in the last few years. It doesnt "look" bad, but I can't sense any creativity when I walk around the world (outside a few specific regions)

In the end, I don't really care either way. Art direction can only do so much for the rest of the games, and I find mmo very shallow all around (that's not where I get my dose of classic literature and serious content)

Originally Posted by Alderaan

While i normally agree with you, art style is just as important to me as gameplay. If i'm not into how a game looks, then what's the point? It's the reason i can't play WoW or XIV.

I've no issue with art style being important (it is for me too), but choosing to not play a game because of this alone (especially when your opinion is based on a very limited experience) feels wrong.

**Kaylia** · 2010-11-13 07:02

Originally Posted by Elrina

That's where I saw the reference to humor. And I was using writing as an analogy to the art, as an alternate view from a different artistic medium. But like I said as I did it, the analogy kinda failed, the way Mioko described it was better.

And the designs may be consistent with their setting, but they still break the realism, which kills the escapism, imo.

The whole conversation is (at least from my side of this) about the style Blizzard is using/has used for it's art, and the direction it takes.

@ Kaylia ~ I agree, you can't really compare most MMOs to a well written book, but there is enough world building going on that you should be able to. The stories may not reach the same heights, since when all the text is ripped out, even if you added descriptive explanation for the lack of visual information, it's generally all short story length. Unless the single story spanned like 6~8 years worth of development or something (way too long to drag something out in an MMO). Regardless, the analogy failed. It wasn't about the writing in the games, although maybe it taking itself "more seriously" is part of what helps prevent it from "overdoing" a lot of things.

Even if you lose some realism because of gear design (or because the game doesn't always take itself seriously), there is always something else make up for it. That's why I've issue with your opinion based on a very limited experience. Your first impression might be bad, but are you sure you won't be able to overcome it when you see the better stuff?

The world in general is way more interactive than it is in FFXIV. There is npc everywhere to make it looks like the place is at war, some will cheer for you as you pass by (when you have high repution), other will fight monsters. Your faction leader will be seen in a few place giving [voice acted] motivational speech. Raids often involve some kind of mini-story that progress as you kill bosses....These small things add up quite fast.

Sure, your shoulderpad might look ridiculous on their own, but when you see the whole world in action, maybe it's actually going to work. Of course, there is always a chance that your helmet will distract you forever, but unless you actually play through the game, you won't know.

In my experience, and I'm including myself here, people usually hate WoW a lot more before they play it than after. Not everyone like it, but it's usually not even for the same reason they hated it at first.

**Hyan** · 2010-11-13 07:37

Originally Posted by Kaylia

In the end, I don't really care either way. Art direction can only do so much for the rest of the games, and I find mmo very shallow all around (that's not where I get my dose of classic literature and serious content)

Yeah, me too. Today, what do they offer that make us play them over other games?

They feel like 'filler' more than anything else.

**Tomino** · 2010-11-13 08:03

Yeah, me too. Today, what do they offer that make us play them over other games?
They feel like 'filler' more than anything else.

This, I have the exact same feeling.

On the art matter, I think I absolutey workship FF art department. It's just so hard (and yet they often succeed so well) to keep your design within boundaries of realism while at the same time give it attitude and originality.
Might be fanboyism but I never ever admired an armor set more than I did with FF11 relic sets (RDM on top of everything else). They were unique yet realistic and didnt get lost with too much eccessive features.

WoW made some nice designs too (really appreciated DK starter blue set, for example), it's just that their visual freedom is so wide it's less of a task. They can work with basically everything from plate to gold to bones to diamonds to living flames.
I also agree on the "12 yrs old Bad Ass factor" myoko wrote abou earlier. Not really my thing I guess.

**Meresgi** · 2010-11-13 08:53

Originally Posted by Kaylia

Do you wear a beret and drink quality wine while playing FXIV?

Have you seen the new water? Shit looks like a mixture of semen and glue now.

http://img138.imageshack.us/img138/2283/wow4w.jpg

Foreground objects, look at them.

http://media.mmo-champion.com/images...r11_male_m.jpg

Check out warlock armor. I dont know how the fuck that happened, the warlock designs for tiers were usually the best ones, apparently that part of the art team died.

WoW rarely take itself seriously. It has a very cartoony look that can look ridiculous at time, but it rarely come out as "badass" in my opinion (like God of War). It's closer to the self parody than anything else when it is like that (which is not always). At least, that's how I feel about the design choice most of the time.

The excuse of, "its to look cartoony", is old. The game launched with outdated graphics and art, as if they ripped the models from WC3 straight off the game, touched them up a little and tossed them in

I don't even know what the fuck their artistic goal is. You have these few great looking areas in WoW, in different parts of some zones, and then you have shit like Molten Core, and Ulduar and other areas where they are just halls and not much else. Naxx is still hands down one of the best looking dungeons in that game.

Edit: All that said, i'm still most likely going to play Cataclysm to see what they have done with the game because though I hate the art style, I am impressed that they redid Azeroth finally

**Skeeterxi** · 2010-11-13 10:51

WoWs graphics are the reason I didn't try to the game for a very long time. I had to almost force myself to try it and I'm glad I did. I absolutely hated the way this game looked but when you are in the world, it just seems to go well with the setting and story and it eventually grows on you. It is pretty shallow too not try a game based on graphics alone and I try not to be like that anymore.

FFXIV has high quality graphics but its world was so lifeless and boring.

Also, adding SET screenshotQuality "10" to your config file will make WoW screenshots looks a lot higher quality. That is if you don't use fraps or something else already.

Some screen shots for the hell of it.

http://img560.imageshack.us/f/wowscr...910180215.jpg/
http://img201.imageshack.us/f/wowscr...810154042.jpg/
http://img526.imageshack.us/f/wowscr...210233604.jpg/

**Hyan** · 2010-11-13 11:44

4gamers e-mail interview:

http://www.ffxivcore.com/topic/27553...73#entry422673

A pretty good read.

I hate that they never seem to emphasize the skill gain issue though.

**ronin sparthos** · 2010-11-13 13:18

Originally Posted by Skeeterxi

WoWs graphics are the reason I didn't try to the game for a very long time. I had to almost force myself to try it and I'm glad I did. I absolutely hated the way this game looked but when you are in the world, it just seems to go well with the setting and story and it eventually grows on you. It is pretty shallow too not try a game based on graphics alone and I try not to be like that anymore.

FFXIV has high quality graphics but its world was so lifeless and boring.

Also, adding SET screenshotQuality "10" to your config file will make WoW screenshots looks a lot higher quality. That is if you don't use fraps or something else already.

Some screen shots for the hell of it.

http://img560.imageshack.us/f/wowscr...910180215.jpg/
http://img201.imageshack.us/f/wowscr...810154042.jpg/
http://img526.imageshack.us/f/wowscr...210233604.jpg/

Having played WoW and FFXI, the graphics of the former may bother some but the small details is where WoW shined over FFXI. If you're purely a graphicswhore, you miss the things that WoW does right. It's a shame really.

Where some call WoW cartoonish and sophomoric for overdoing things like weapons and armor (lolflamingskulls) I call FFXI cartoonish for being so lacking in details. The small things like faction NPCs actually guarding the towns, underwater shipwrecks and interaction with objects are where WoW gets it right.

Who cares if an NPC looks great in FFXI if they never bother to defend the towns they go on about so much? The towns also never seemed like they've been under attack though the entire game revolves around conflict.

XI got it right with more adult and realistic armor but on the front of creating a living and breathing world, the cartoonish game gets the prize.

XIV has the chance to take what worked in WoW and expand upon it. SE already has scoffed at jumping and swimming elements but they still have a chance to make worlds more realistic with regards to more interaction with the world and realism via expanding on the various conflicts that SE may choose to expand on with its first expansion pack.

**Hyan** · 2010-11-13 13:24

Originally Posted by ronin sparthos

SE may choose to expand on with its first expansion pack.

Makes me wonder what the "theme" will be in the first expansion..

**Kaylia** · 2010-11-13 13:25

Originally Posted by Meresgi

Foreground objects, look at them.

Thank, I didn't notice the 2d maping when I picked the screenshot in folder...retard. That's what WoW look like. Most players who arent graphic whore won't mind things like this, but you're shallow, and we can't change that.

And lol at making fun of ulduar when FFXI has shit like alzadaal ruin. Do you really think FFXIV dungeon won't reuse the palette?

@ronin spartos
Yeah, that's pretty much the point I brought up earlier. The good stuff about WoW's art direction can't be seen in a screenshot. You have to experience the actual game to get a good picture of it....

Thread: FFXIV Flame Wars Thread: because ten threads is not enough threads

Thread Tools

Latest Threads

Up & Coming Threads

Hottest Threads