FFXIV Flame Wars Thread: because ten threads is not enough threads

[miokomioko]

Nice. You post nonsense, then refuse to clarify your idiotic statement.

Nice. You can't remember calling someone shallow for talking about how crappy World of Warcraft looks when it's quoted on this very page. Go you.

And yes, people obsessing on graphics are usually shallow.

Cool. Now, if anyone was actually "obsessing on graphics" we'd have a relevant opinion. Translated, you seem to be implying that one must be shallow if they don't play World of Warcraft because of bad it looks.

Loving art is one thing

Neat. We agree that loving art is one thing. However, to a lot of people, it's a big one thing... and you're no better than them for not caring.

wanting next gen graphic on everything is another.

Who wants "nex gen graphic on everything?" How do you spin everything so hard? You're just acting out because you can't accept that World of Warcraft's visual presentation (completely regardless of "style" being fantastic/cartoony/etc) was dated the day it was released and now is hideous in comparison to modern releases. Just because you enjoy an ugly game doesn't mean it's unreasonable and "shallow" for people to prefer visual aesthetic of a higher caliber... especially when it's readily available.

What % more sales do you think Minecraft would have if its graphics were "nex gen?" A whole fucking lot more and you know it. It matters to more people than you want to admit. It's a pretty small chunk of the general gaming community that can stand playing shit like Dwarven Fortress. Shallow?

[Grey Jorildyn]

I can see that point.

I have never been big on graphics, but usually when describing a game, one of the first things anyone generally quips about is the visual presentation. "It's pretty", "it's ugly", etc. If you love a game, it never matters, but it's hard to love this title and I do think the graphics are one of its saving graces, even though it is fairly copy/paste. The way stuff is presented is very clean and crisp, particularly on high-end cards (GTX 260 here bleh). It's easy to come down on graphics since these days American's especially are so immediate-satisfaction about stuff.

[Eaglestrike]

I only associated "Cartoonish" with WoW because the game does not attempt to dive into realism with regards to such things as weapons and armor. Shit glows for no reason, weapons are huge and are a rainbow of colors just because and hell the shoulderpads breathe fire.

I hold nothing against WoW for those choices but it does remind me more of comic book or cartoon show with regards to aesthetics.

My comment was that XI seemed empty and hollow even though SE attempted to make the game more realistic. WoW ironically ends up being more realistic because of those small details.

Magical effects are plenty reason for something to glow. I mean, how does someone typically show magic? Glowing, sparkling, etc. Azeroth story-wise is an exceptional world full of powerful magic, it has great potential which is why it's targeted by Sargeras and the Burning Legion. It makes perfect sense for the magical artifacts all over the world to be glowing...they're magical.

[Alderaan]

I disagree. The good graphics are necessary. What they should have done is released the game in January for PC, and May/June for PS3.

Although the more I think about it, the more I start believing that what's happening now, despite the fact that it fucking sucks right now, is absolutely the best possible thing for FFXIV's future. Before this happened, they had no intention of building a separate UI for PC users. There was one UI, and that was it, by design. It's exactly because of the overall backlash of the game that they're now making a native keyboard/mouse UI. This is a huge win for the game in the long term. If they had released the game 4 months later, and fixed the lag issues, fixed the market wards, had a search system, had more content, etc etc. People still would have complained about the UI, but it wouldn't have been nearly as fierce. And then we probably wouldn't be seeing the shift in strategy that SE is adopting.

While i normally disagree with you, i'm a firm believer in things not changing unless they fail.

Had SE done a 6 month beta phase for a simultaneous release, i honestly don't think they would have listened to the majority of our feedback. We would have gotten the same shitty game with a little more content. While it sounds unfair, people should have realized like i did in beta that the game was what it was and saved their money. This is why you don't preorder MMO's anymore until you play them, those days are over. The last 5 years have been nothing but unfulfilled hype and box sales cash grabs.

[Hyan]

Is it also bad for one to think that graphics matter more in MMO's than in single player titles? You are potentially going to play this shit for years to come... if it looks like crap right out of the box, that's never a positive thing.

You can always shape the world the way you want (as far as your game engine allows), or add some character customization options later down the road, but it is hard to make a major overhaul to your graphics engine once shit starts looking very dated.

A lot is saved by a proper art style (see WoW vs. TOR for good vs bad), but it doesn't change that it pisses me off to see every MMO suck graphically when they're the games that need those next gen graphics the most.

While i normally disagree with you, i'm a firm believer in things not changing unless they fail.

Had SE done a 6 month beta phase for a simultaneous release, i honestly don't think they would have listened to the majority of our feedback. We would have gotten the same shitty game with a little more content.

This is how it seems to go. You can't pressure them enough before they see for themselves what happens.

I'm just glad SE doesn't -need- to profit from this game right off the bat and that it's their flagship franchise getting owned, or they might as well call it a day.

[Tomino]

On the matter of graphics, sure there are technical aspects (polygon count, overall effects, animation quality), but what games should really try to achieve should be "emotional impact".

WoW has such a long list of graphic fails it's not even fun to list them but still, almost each new LK area had such a strong visual strength it was a success to me.
Howling Fjord map, for example, was one of the best places I ever grinded in, and it sure beats bashing crabs on a perfectly rendered beach by miles.

Like other FF11 players I had (and still have) a strong dislike for lots of WoW art choices but I'd be lying saying their work is poor, because on certain aspects they did far better than (even) Square. You can clearly feel a strong concept design behind each and every area, and that's a very good thing.

[Hyan]

Needs moar CoP

[dubs]

Been following the 2ch FFXIV threads and there's one with 500+ replies ongoing (http://2chnull.info/r/ogame/1289478946/301-400). According to them, this is the combined server population peak at JP prime time:

　 リーブ更新　 　　　09　　　　21　　　　無 　 　

┃10/07～10/09　 ┃　　42217　　39216　　46499*
┃10/10～10/12　 ┃　　47565* 　45504* 　41894
┃10/13～10/15　 ┃　　40516　　39502　　36525
┃10/16～10/18　 ┃　　43271* 　44582* 　39279
┃10/19～10/21　 ┃　　38905　　38339　　36546
┃10/22～10/24　 ┃　　24907**　40548* 　40392*
┃10/25～10/27　 ┃　　36309　　35832　　33867
┃10/28～10/30　 ┃　　31553　　32518　　36264*
┃10/31～11/02　 ┃　　36112* 　33877　　30929
┃11/03～11/05　 ┃　　32672* 　29031　　29064
┃11/06～11/08　 ┃　　32384* 　33373* 　28968
┃11/09～11/11　 ┃　　28675　　28052　　27023

Considering how there's usually anywhere from 700-900 people max on Besaid at any given time (that I'm on, anyways - evening times EST), I'm not overly surprised at all. Also, some of the ASCII figures are just lol:

edit: shit looks fucked up with encoding, #388 in above link for reference.

Think this guy nailed it:
"303: It is less like hypnosis masturbation"

[Tomino]

Needs moar CoP

CoP had such beautiful, inspired locations it really is a shame it was so hard to experience them.

On such topic, I can't help but agree with the current Blizzard philosphy when it comes to the chance of either tasting or not new content: almost ANY subscribing player should get the chance to play the content he has bought as expansion and he's also paying monthly. Game design must find other way than just cockblock areas for the sake of the skilled/hardcore players, which sure have all rights to see a line being drawn somewhere.

For ex, I consider Ulduar a fascinating raid instance and it really felt bad to be struck at the first 3 bosses because my guild at a time was too casual to pass past them. Then came normal/heroic plus area buff, and ICC didnt force people to guild hop just to see the new bosses. Good job on that, Blizz.
And I dont know if you have a friend these days who's back on FF11, but it's such a waste that he won't ever be able to see the whole of CoP, unless you have such nice friends they're up for all the hard stuff (frustrating stuff, better) once again just for him.

[Meresgi]

@Meresgi
We havent played in the same Ulduar. The tramway leading to mimiron, Freya's garden, hodir's frost tunnel, thorim's arena...there is a large diversity of setting, even if it's not the largest instance. Naxx look the same everywhere (add spiderweb, greensludge, or war supply depending of the wings you're doing). It also has very little story going on in it, unlike ulduar.
I don't care if you hate Ulduar, but you're just bitching for the sake of bitching here.
What? that has nothing to do with the discussion.
SquareEnix should have spent less time on pretty graphics and more on building a solid gameplay during the development. that's what I said.

The tram just shoots you through the mountain area that is directly OUTSIDE Ulduar. The frost tunnel is just...a tunnel...with snow in it. thorims arena is 1 very short hallway leading into a circle arena where you can split up and go down another hallway.

Naxx felt alive to me, it felt like what you would expect to be in a giant floating necro battle station, and while the areas repeated, the mobs and boss types were varied enough to make you think there were different wings. Also Kel'Thuzads room and Sapphs were both pretty impressive and what you would expect could be in there. Yogg Saron's room is kind of meh, while the fight itself was actually fun.

I'm bitching for the sake of bitching? Have you even read what you post here? All you do is bitch and complain about how FFXIV will never meet your expectations and how WoW is hands down the best game to ever be made...yet you post this drivel IN THE FINAL FANTASY XIV FORUM.

And if im such a graphics whore, apparently you missed the part where I said I would be returning to Cataclysm to try it out.

And yes, people obsessing on graphics are usually shallow. Loving art is one thing, wanting next gen graphic on everything is another.

Wait so...loving art is ok...but wanting good art is bad? The fuck are you even saying? Shallowness has nothing to do with it, games are received first on looks alone and then comes gameplay. WoW's graphics turned me off when I started playing, they still do and looking at my character in tier gear makes me shake my head because it doesn't look that great, yet the gameplay was fun (at least for awhile until having to wait to farm a new instance became tedious). The only reason im going back for Cataclysm is to see what they have done with old world, which I loved. The story of Deathwing I could give 2 shits about.

Howling Fjord map, for example, was one of the best places I ever grinded in, and it sure beats bashing crabs on a perfectly rendered beach by miles.

Fjord was freaking awesome, that and parts of Dragonblight (Namely the town under Naxx being attacked), and Icecrown. The rest of the zones were meh to me, Borean Tundra I despised. I always liked the look of Ifrits Cauldron, and other remote areas in FFXI but I hate how you always end up exping in FF games in areas that are not impressive to look at, at all. Usually because the impressive areas have super impressive murder you mobs hanging around them.

[Shaskoru]

Who wants "nex gen graphic on everything?" How do you spin everything so hard? You're just acting out because you can't accept that World of Warcraft's visual presentation (completely regardless of "style" being fantastic/cartoony/etc) was dated the day it was released and now is hideous in comparison to modern releases. Just because you enjoy an ugly game doesn't mean it's unreasonable and "shallow" for people to prefer visual aesthetic of a higher caliber... especially when it's readily available.

It's not shallow to dislike an art style, or to prefer an art style of a higher graphical quality. It is shallow to create a general opinion of an object (I'm using object in a general context here) based simply on that style. Really, you're coming off as a huge hipster.

Also, I'm curious about what you actually know about WoW other than its general visual representation. Do you know anything about its general gameplay systems or story? Have you ever tried playing it?

Story Time:

Spoiler: show

I remember the first time that I played WoW, and I was part of the group of people that despised it for simply existing. Yes, its "art style" was something I too used as a scapegoat when referring to it. I told my FFXI friends that I was playing WoW and enjoying it immensely over what FFXI had to offer (Note: this was 2006, and I believe that FFXI is a much better game now). They shunned me, and I don't speak to any but two of them at this time. Even when I returned to FFXI, a game which most of us would agree had a strong community, they acted as if I was an outsider. I received little to no help from these people that I called friends for many years. They often joked about WoW and how bad they thought it was. The sad part is that this is hardly a rare case, as I have seen it happen many other times with other people. It may not be the majority of the cases, but it is ignorant for people to be so close-minded of something they have never tried, or to refer to it as a bad game for having an art style that said person does not like.

You don't like the game's general visual representation, we get it. This does not deter from the fact that it is the most successful MMORPG to date, and that 10 million people (much more if you count private servers) enjoy it. I don't think anyone here would have a problem with anyone else if they would state their opinions on something as simple as "I don't like x because of y," rather than "I don't like x because of y and that's why it's bad." Your opinion does not make something bad.

What % more sales do you think Minecraft would have if its graphics were "nex gen?" A whole fucking lot more and you know it. It matters to more people than you want to admit. It's a pretty small chunk of the general gaming community that can stand playing shit like Dwarven Fortress. Shallow?

There's a ton of factors involved in something like this. Not to mention, Minecraft may not have existed if Notch had to focus more on its general visual representation, since it would have put a huge strain on the game as a whole (right down to general programming language of choice and going a bit further just as an example--pricing models). If we're ignoring real world factors and just gave Minecraft a huge boost in graphics, then sure, it may have been better.... assuming a good portion of Minecraft players aren't playing it simply because it can run on older machines, or the fact that may be run in a browser due to its java implementation and generally small size.

I'm bitching for the sake of bitching? Have you even read what you post here? All you do is bitch and complain about how FFXIV will never meet your expectations and how WoW is hands down the best game to ever be made...yet you post this drivel IN THE FINAL FANTASY XIV FORUM.

I'm pretty sure Kaylia is just saying that WoW is the most successful MMORPG to date, and that's true, unless you live in another dimension where it's not the most successful MMORPG to date.

Why does it matter to you where he posts this anyway? Also, I seem to recall you bitching quite a bit in the WoW forums a while back, so you criticizing anyone for bitching about a game in its own forum is just lol, especially considering this is a flame thread with the specific intent of letting people bitch, while WoW has no thread of that nature.

And if im such a graphics whore, apparently you missed the part where I said I would be returning to Cataclysm to try it out.

I'm sure you have black friends too, right?

[Kurp]

I didn't like the character models and armor in WoW, but I thought the zone design was impressive. By comparison, FFXIV has incredibly bland zones, even compared to some of the zones in vanilla WoW.

[Hyan]

Also, I'm curious about what you actually know about WoW other than its general visual representation. Do you know anything about its general gameplay systems or story? Have you ever tried playing it?

Story Time:

Spoiler: show

I remember the first time that I played WoW, and I was part of the group of people that despised it for simply existing. Yes, its "art style" was something I too used as a scapegoat when referring to it. I told my FFXI friends that I was playing WoW and enjoying it immensely over what FFXI had to offer (Note: this was 2006, and I believe that FFXI is a much better game now). They shunned me, and I don't speak to any but two of them at this time. Even when I returned to FFXI, a game which most of us would agree had a strong community, they acted as if I was an outsider. I received little to no help from these people that I called friends for many years. They often joked about WoW and how bad they thought it was. The sad part is that this is hardly a rare case, as I have seen it happen many other times with other people. It may not be the majority of the cases, but it is ignorant for people to be so close-minded of something they have never tried, or to refer to it as a bad game for having an art style that said person does not like.

You don't like the game's general visual representation, we get it. This does not deter from the fact that it is the most successful MMORPG to date, and that 10 million people (much more if you count private servers) enjoy it. I don't think anyone here would have a problem with anyone else if they would state their opinions on something as simple as "I don't like x because of y," rather than "I don't like x because of y and that's why it's bad." Your opinion does not make something bad.

How the hell is this shit relevant? Art style is the subject, not WHAT IS THE BESTEST MMO OUT THERE. We are on an XIV forum, you should have been able to figure this out by yourself. If we don't pick out features one by one, in general there is absolutely nothing to argue about.

Just because we pick a feature we don't like doesn't mean anything in the large scale.

[Lucavi]

CoP had such beautiful, inspired locations it really is a shame it was so hard to experience them.

I don't know why everyone talks about XI like it had the most stunning, revolutionary graphics. CoP had what, a new dry desert in the chasm, some crazy promy stages that certainly looked trippy and awesome, but not "beautiful", Sea, which looked pretty nifty, but another "hi-tech-lost-age" tower/dungeon, the actual sea, that looked cool but had pathing issues out the wazoo, and Tavnazia, which admittedly looked nice, but it was basically a Konschtat Highlands +2, with a nice bridge/waterfall scene added in.

Personally, I didn't start praising XI about graphics until they started ramping up the textures in ToAU. Take a look at the sky in Vanilla, RotZ, or CoP zones. Then look at the sky in ToAU. Not even close. Look at the ground and leaf textures in the Al Zhabi zones compared to the former areas. No comparison. Even the enemy models looked leaps and bounds better, like comparing a standard gigas to a Mamool Ja. WoTG pushed it further with the badass new beastmen armors.

WoW did the exact same thing, however, its simply that their style was a different style right off the back, and its hard to polish a 6-year-old's classroom doodles. WoW did a good job of putting out hi-rez models of the PCs, even if the tech is wholly outdated, and surely did a great job enhancing the latest NPC models, just like XI did with WotG models (like that fine-ass Elivira <3 <3 <3).

XI had just as much clipping, jaggies (needed/needs quality AA far more than WoW does), low quality textures and recycled designs as any other MMO. XI also had shit-all for graphical options. Barely any AA, texture filtering, resolutions, ambient occulation, lighting or other choices. Blizzard continues to add more graphical options with each expansion to allow for player's advancing PCs to push the game farther. XI does not because they can't have the poor PS2 falling behind that mean ol' PC too much.

I do wonder, however, if Blizzard is taking all of this "WoW looks like shit" rhetoric to heart. They know they've made billions, but I wonder if they'd like to shut up critics claiming that Blizzard can't make pretty games. We all know they have the budget to do it, and they certainly aren't restrained by any consoles, so it would be pretty funny for the screens/vids of their upcoming MMO to utilize DX11, Tessilation, ect., and just blow away competitors on the market.

Granted, that would mean that their subs would inevitably take a hit, but I don't think anyone has really claimed that Blizzard is incapable of garnering/retaining subs, so its not like they have anything to prove in that area. They can also keep the shitty PC players hooked to WoW since it doesn't take anything past a Commodore 128 to play it.

[Meresgi]

I'm sure you have black friends too, right?

Naw, I hate niggers.

I'm pretty sure Kaylia is just saying that WoW is the most successful MMORPG to date, and that's true, unless you live in another dimension where it's not the most successful MMORPG to date.

Why does it matter to you where he posts this anyway? Also, I seem to recall you bitching quite a bit in the WoW forums a while back, so you criticizing anyone for bitching about a game in its own forum is just lol, especially considering this is a flame thread with the specific intent of letting people bitch, while WoW has no thread of that nature.

I was playing WoW pretty hardcore while bitching about things in that forum. After I left the game for good I havn't gone back to that forum in past 2 months I believe. I think my last post was saying that Garrosh looked retarded as all hell. Was I even saying WoW was not a great MMO? I said the art sucked, and it DOES suck. If you're defending the art then you're blind, both literally and figuratively. No one is saying WoW is a bad game, its a good game, and it was a giant success as a result of an unplanned fluke and Blizzard capitalized on that.

It's not shallow to dislike an art style, or to prefer an art style of a higher graphical quality. It is shallow to create a general opinion of an object (I'm using object in a general context here) based simply on that style. Really, you're coming off as a huge hipster.

He may be coming off as a hipster with that opinion, but you're coming off as a pompous idiot. Don't tell me you don't base opinions off of looks, you're just the type of person that slams people for doing something you do yourself, but can only see it in others. I'm sure you have never based an opinion on anyone, any game or anything off of looks ever in your life, if you have, then your opinion is null.

The gameplay in WoW was great, the art style was crap, am I shallow for thinking that? Fuck yeah I am, is being shallow a bad thing? Fuck no.

[Hyan]

I don't know why everyone talks about XI like it had the most stunning, revolutionary graphics. CoP had what, a new dry desert in the chasm, some crazy promy stages that certainly looked trippy and awesome, but not "beautiful", Sea, which looked pretty nifty, but another "hi-tech-lost-age" tower/dungeon, the actual sea, that looked cool but had pathing issues out the wazoo, and Tavnazia, which admittedly looked nice, but it was basically a Konschtat Highlands +2, with a nice bridge/waterfall scene added in.

I was always inspired when looking at CoP zones, especially Uleguerand and Riverne. Some RoTZ and vanilla areas gave me the same vibes (castle zvahl (and the entrance to it), the ruins in the jungle) but ToAU areas never felt 'as good'. I was much more impressed by the monster design there however.

Granted, that would mean that their subs would inevitably take a hit

Well, you just explained why not ;(

[Lucavi]

I've been inspired in plenty of games. The plot inspires me more than any pretty screenshot. I was inspired more by the Ark Angels CS and Divine Might than any "pretty" graphic in XI, because the graphics really weren't all that pretty. The locales were designed well enough, but I can't call them "beautiful" or something. The closest I could come to doing that for both WoW and XI is probably Movopolis for XI and any part of storm peaks in WoW, mostly because of the musics fitting the areas. Go figure that half the reason I love the AAs is because of both badass themes that play with them.

Storm Peaks did more for me in WoW than any zone in XI, especially Thunderfall in the Storm Peaks with that sad music and all of those Dwarves and Frost Giants frozen in time with the snow falling around them. I wish there was more shit like that in games.

[Hyan]

Well I can see why you'd appreciate the areas from a technical standpoint. I did notice the skies look better in ToAU but it's not like I looked at it much before anyway lol.

Gotta love that Promathia battle arena too...

[Meresgi]

Storm Peaks did more for me in WoW than any zone in XI, especially Thunderfall in the Storm Peaks with that sad music and all of those Dwarves and Frost Giants frozen in time with the snow falling around them. I wish there was more shit like that in games.

That part of Storm Peaks with the quest chain was great, the rest of the zone was kinda meh though to me. Icecrown needed better music but I loved that zone and the phase shifting technology. I really want to see what they do with it come Cataclysm as I havnt been keeping up with it at all.

[Lucavi]

IC did need better music; no disagreement there. Storm Peaks just "sealed" it for me when I got there, though. Combine that with Howling Fjord and some of the early raids and I was just hooked.

All that said, I have no interest in going back. The graphics are just "too" bad for me at this point, and I'm completely satisfied with my progress in the universe. I killed the Lich King. I did my part until Sargeras raises his ugly head. Deathwing means little to me.

@Hyan: I'm a rational dreamer, if that makes any sense, which it probably doesn't. I call a spade a spade just like anyone else, but I'm also hooked on games for different reasons than most. Just looking up at the sky at night on a clear evening paralyzes me for about 10 minutes, and the same thing happens in a game if it looks good enough. There were plenty of times I put a friend's chocobo on auto-follow while running to a camp in ToAU just to check out the sky and how it changed.

Imagine my annoyance when WoTG returned to the vanilla textures for their skies in the earlier areas.