FFXIV Flame Wars Thread: because ten threads is not enough threads

[Shaskoru]

I'm curious, do you actually know what people mean when they call you/Mio/CP/whoever a white knight?

[Tomino]

I think all areas should be completely explorable once a player achieves max level so that also become a long term goal for anyone.
FF11 had this all wrong, at least in my opinion, and things don't look like they have changed in FF14. Maybe lv99 cap will allow people to walk in Uleguarande range just to see how it is done.

But I don't want a prettier FFXI. I want parts of XI and parts of games and concepts yet undiscovered in FFXIV. I want more immersion, and I especially want what others consider to be "fluff"

I'm with you on this.
One of the major dissapointments of FF14 (something I can hardly see them fixing) is how the whole world feels exactly like FF11, which felt like games felt 10 years ago.

[Hyan]

I'm curious, do you actually know what people mean when they call you/Mio/CP/whoever a white knight?

I know you don't.

"He said he likes that XIV has actually good graphics! He thinks the whole game is perfect and every game should be exactly like it! Ha ha."

[Lucavi]

Do you honestly understand what you're typing?

Edit: It's almost like you want to one-up Meresgi's generalizations.

I see what he's saying. Graphically, you want to start off strong because graphics cannot be completely overhauled 5 years down the road. If they look bad from day 1, they'll look bad on year 7. His words have meaning, as XIV will look amazing in 5 years, because it already looks damned good right now.

No one is talking about success or subs or anything else. He's talking strictly about graphics, and when speaking strictly about graphics, he's right. WoW has HDed their models and made new, advanced skins, but it still looks like WoW, and WoW never looked amazing from a pure graphical power standpoint. It was always more about the art design than the sheer graphical muscle. FFXIV is the opposite. The style is alright, but the horsepower under the hood gives SE the freedom to essentially do anything they want, so long as they can get out of the lazy and stiff design choices they currently employ outside of their CSs.

In this instance, he's not WhiteKnighting at all.

[Kaylia]

I don't want to play a game for 5 years that looks ugly on day one. Everything else can be added later, the graphic engine is what it is.

If I need to wait a year for the game to get there for exchange of graphics that look good 5 years down the road, I'll gladly do it. It's not like completely crappy graphics have guaranteed a good gameplay experience before.

TOR seems to be doing exactly that (at least I hope so) but shit still looks awful and uninteresting. What is their excuse?

Everything could be added later at "a slower rate". This is the key part you're missing. The game won't grow on its own like a magical bean after its release, they still need to invest time to create models and animation, to optimize the performances (especially with the ps3 around)...The more advanced the graphics are, the more works it will be generally (not entirely true because it will be slightly easier to make good graphics as technology progress).

If they wait 1 more year, the graphics won't be impressive anymore, and there will be better out there.


Eigth year later in FFXI, are you ever walking in Riverne and thinking to yourself "god, this place looks like ass"? People here like to pretend they do for some reason, but that's not what happen when you play mmo for months. New contents is compared to old one, and enjoyed accordingly.



@At the whiteknight comment.
I don't think Hyan is whiteknighing as much as before. I still disagree with him but unlike Mioko and CP, he isnt systematically defending everything.

[Shaskoru]

I know you don't.

"He said he likes that XIV has actually good graphics! He thinks the whole game is perfect and every game should be exactly like it! Ha ha."

So you don't understand what you're typing, and you are just trying to generalize. Why am I even bothering to respond?

you want to start off strong because graphics cannot be completely overhauled 5 years down the road.

They most certainly can be. It may not be practical for most companies to do at this point, but that does not make it impossible.

His words have meaning, as XIV will look amazing in 5 years, because it already looks damned good right now.

It will if technology somehow slows down its progression, or if nothing innovative is created in that timeframe.

No one is talking about success or subs or anything else. He's talking strictly about graphics, and when speaking strictly about graphics, he's right. WoW has HDed their models and made new, advanced skins, but it still looks like WoW, and WoW never looked amazing from a pure graphical power standpoint. It was always more about the art design than the sheer graphical muscle. FFXIV is the opposite. The style is alright, but the horsepower under the hood gives SE the freedom to essentially do anything they want, so long as they can get out of the lazy and stiff design choices they currently employ outside of their CSs.

In this instance, he's not WhiteKnighting at all.

The entire point of visual representation is subjective unless you're basing it completely on predetermined values such as technological capabilities. In that case, it's not really anyone's opinion, since technology would decide what is best.

I'm not arguing that WoW is visually stunning or that FFXIV is not visually stunning, but it seems that Hyan does not know how to comprehend my posts or he is trolling the fuck out of me.

[Lucavi]

They most certainly can be. It may not be practical for most companies to do at this point, but that does not make it impossible.

It will if technology somehow slows down its progression, or if nothing innovative is created in that timeframe.

The entire point of visual representation is subjective unless you're basing it completely on predetermined values such as technological capabilities. In that case, it's not really anyone's opinion, since technology would decide what is best.

I'm not arguing that WoW is visually stunning or that FFXIV is not visually stunning, but it seems that Hyan does not know how to comprehend my posts or he is trolling the fuck out of me.

1) Name a company that has kept the exact same game, yet completely overhauled the engine. I can think of 0 MMOs currently on the market, unless we're talking like Ultima Online or something.
2) If the technology slows down, then its the fault of the company. A common fear with this game is that it'll die before it can take off, but it should be fine by March if they hold true to the promises that they've recently made. You don't need 3 mil subs to keep the funds rolling in. It takes a surprisingly small amount of subs to keep a game breaking even, let alone profitable.
3) I am basing it on sheer tech. WoW's tech is inferior in terms of sheer graphics. Its not an opinion. Therefore, to argue the latter shows that you really don't have an argument in that matter.

The only subjectivity dwells within the range of "what do I think is good-looking?", and that can be debated to death. What cannot be debated, however, is the fact that WoW's engine runs more like a 4-cylinder Vtech: small, yet refined and endlessly re-tweaked for its maximum performance, and FFXI + FFXIV were more of a standard V8: powerful, with plenty of muscle, yet open-ended as to the amount of refinement that goes/went in. The result is a series of very stiff games, where WoW feels much more fluid.

That little 4-banger is weaker than a V8, even if it is far better optimized.

[Hyan]

Everything could be added later at "a slower rate". This is the key part you're missing. The game won't grow on its own like a magical bean after its release, they still need to invest time to create models and animation, to optimize the performances (especially with the ps3 around)...The more advanced the graphics are, the more works it will be generally (not entirely true because it will be slightly easier to make good graphics as technology progress).

Yeah, it's not something small budget companies can do, but fuck them. MMO's are big company playgrounds!

If it really matters, I agree with you. But I think it's the company's responsibility to have a large enough team to handle the extra effort required. If they can't deal with it and release updates at a normal pace, then they definitely shouldn't overdo it.

Another point I want to include, is how these bad looking games can spend even more resources and time to make their games better looking even after release, while a game that is gorgeous from the get-go can pretty much ignore the graphic advancement (if they want to) and focus their efforts elsewhere.. While still looking good as the bad games are still pretty bad.

Eigth year later in FFXI, are you ever walking in Riverne and thinking to yourself "god, this place looks like ass"? People here like to pretend they do for some reason, but that's not what happen when you play mmo for months. New contents is compared to old one, and enjoyed accordingly.

Hmm, I can name only a handful of newer games that I consider to look "better" in all ways. As far as gaming in general goes, it looks horrible, but MMO's are so much behind what normal games can look like it's more acceptable. More often than not I think it's "similar or little worse".

But I agree, that it grows on you over time. But if I think "this place looks like ass" from the start, I don't think I can ever stop thinking that way. If other features are good I may not care as much, but it doesn't just stop being ugly all of a sudden. And if I play the game for months or even years, I'd like it to be aesthetically pleasing... especially when newer games come out every year that look better and better and the gameplay is what it is.

[Meresgi]

2 years old game had bad art? 5 years old game had bad art?

Mario 64's stage design still impress me, and god, the polygon are ugly by today standard. People confuse art direction and graphics.

WoW LAUNCHED with graphics that were out of date. It was not an art direction, it was merely a way to make the game playable on a PC from 1990 using Windows ME if someone had to use that.

I'm curious, do you actually know what people mean when they call you/Mio/CP/whoever a white knight?

I'm curious, can you come up with anything to actually attack me with other then calling me a white knight while I clearly state how I enjoyed WoW, am going to go back to playing WoW, state things wrong with FFXIV and my desire for changes to happen. Apparently you and others seem to not know what white knight is anymore, or just want to heap ANYONE who does not share your utter livid hatred of the game into 1 side.


NO ONE CAN BE ON THE FENCE YOU ARE EITHER A WHITE KNIGHT OR A DEFENDER OF TRUTH AND JUSTICE IN THE MMO WORLD HUZZAH!!

They most certainly can be. It may not be practical for most companies to do at this point, but that does not make it impossible.

No, it actually can not be done very well. If you base your entire playerbase on people having outdated systems and being able to play from their grandmothers laptop, and then suddenly tweak the game to play on higher end systems...you are losing customers and that's bad business.

It will if technology somehow slows down its progression, or if nothing innovative is created in that timeframe.

As Hyan put it, MMOs are not at the forefront of graphics and innovation in gameplay. We don't have a Crysis MMO or Portal MMO or anything of that kind. FF11, and ill assume the same for 14, were made to be played on very high end systems at their release time, and eventually become more average. WoW was created with the bare minimum in mind from the start and never really improved. Look at the models for WoW, most of the starter races look like ass now even compared to the newer races (which still arnt very impressive).

[Kaylia]

I'm giving LoTR mmo another shot with a few friends (played it years ago for a few level, but my shitty computer couldnt handle it). The characters model look like ass, but the world is really nice so far with maxed graphics (having lot of fun exploring it).

I think it's funny that the game is way more playable than FFXIV (and 5 years in development has nothing to do with it, since the beta was very similar so far). You have fun story instance, they give you good tutorial for everything, the crafting/gathering is similar to FFXIV (no minigame, but many items) but as user friendly as WoW. It has flaws but shit, it's much better than xiv in its current state.

Only drawback is that I cant watch my sexy Miquote's ass

[Hyan]

If XIV was like LOTRO, I would have been so disappointed.

10x more disappointed than I was in Sept.

[Lucavi]

This is how much I care about graphics.

I loved Dungeon Siege and Dungeon Siege II.

Bam.

[Meresgi]

This is how much I care about graphics.

I loved Dungeon Siege and Dungeon Siege II.

Bam.

I still play mother fucking Asteroids and Pong bitches!

[Hyan]

Bad graphics on my PSP? BRING IT ON!

Bad graphics on my 24' monitor?

[Kaylia]

Yeah, it's not something small budget companies can do, but fuck them. MMO's are big company playgrounds!

If it really matters, I agree with you. But I think it's the company's responsibility to have a large enough team to handle the extra effort required. If they can't deal with it and release updates at a normal pace, then they definitely shouldn't overdo it.

Another point I want to include, is how these bad looking games can spend even more resources and time to make their games better looking even after release, while a game that is gorgeous from the get-go can pretty much ignore the graphic advancement (if they want to) and focus their efforts elsewhere.. While still looking good as the bad games are still pretty bad.

Hmm, I can name only a handful of newer games that I consider to look "better" in all ways. As far as gaming in general goes, it looks horrible, but MMO's are so much behind what normal games can look like it's more acceptable. More often than not I think it's "similar or little worse".

But I agree, that it grows on you over time. But if I think "this place looks like ass" from the start, I don't think I can ever stop thinking that way. If other features are good I may not care as much, but it doesn't just stop being ugly all of a sudden. And if I play the game for months or even years, I'd like it to be aesthetically pleasing... especially when newer games come out every year that look better and better and the gameplay is what it is.

Of course, it is definitively possible to waste a lot of ressource trying to make a bad looking game look good. No matter what you do, you need a good vision of the future and build a solid engine right away. That's the most important thing (and not just in the game industry, but any project).

However, spaghetti code usually happen when you're trying to optimize everything, and you will rarely see that happen unless you're already pushing the limits. It's much easier to do clean programming when you don't have to worry about hardware. This is of course very utopic, but there is most definitively inbetween that arent so bad.

WoW LAUNCHED with graphics that were out of date. It was not an art direction, it was merely a way to make the game playable on a PC from 1990 using Windows ME if someone had to use that.

I'm not quite sure how it is relevant to the current argument.

WoW has a very unique artstyle.
Blizzard game, including WoW, always uses outdated graphics to let more people play their game.

These 2 issues are completely differents, even if you can draw connection between both (a realistic approach would look much worse on an already outdated graphics engine). However, the question I'm asking you is: can you have an immersive environment using an oudated graphics engine? The answer should be yes. Both WoW and FFXI show us that it was possible.

[SamanosukeShiva]

Before i play wow i thought wow graphic was shitty too, and i disliked the art style. But now, honestly i dont give a fuck anymore, it's just like apple and oranges, except this apple doesnt give you headache 15 minutes in.

[Meresgi]

I'm not quite sure how it is relevant to the current argument.
WoW has a very unique artstyle.
Blizzard game, including WoW, always uses outdated graphics to let more people play their game.
These 2 issues are completely differents, even if you can draw connection between both (a realistic approach would look much worse on an already outdated graphics engine). However, the question I'm asking you is: can you have an immersive environment using an oudated graphics engine? The answer should be yes. Both WoW and FFXI show us that it was possible.

You arn't sure how it is relevant?....we're talking about graphics, art direction, art styles here. It's not a "unique" art style at all, unless you label a child's crayon drawings as "unique" compared to a Monet. The Diablos, Starcrafts, Warcrafts 1, 2 and 3 all had some up to date graphics at their time when they were launched.

However, the question I'm asking you is: can you have an immersive environment using an oudated graphics engine? The answer should be yes. Both WoW and FFXI show us that it was possible.

Yeah, you can. Why are you even asking this question towards me? I never, ever, once said that WoW was not immersive, or that the game had 0 depth to it. I think you half read posts and fill in the rest with craziness, or have 7 tabs open and read a sentence from each tab then respond to posts. I've been beating it like a dead horse, but WoW's "art style" is junk, it's not unique, it's not "creative", its just laziness and most likely will not be upgraded any time in the future or in the games life time.

[miokomioko]

In order to play something with completely shit graphics, the gameplay and story needs to be unique/amazing enough for me to get past it. There's too many options to MMORPGs to care about WoW when it offends my eyeballs and I have zero interest in Warcraft lore. It's not hard to understand that WoW was in development for a long time. Launching with sub-par graphics tends to be a side-effect of being in development/testing for an extended amount of time.

Also, no. WoW's art style is not a unique snowflake. It's very 'graphic novel.' An art style I dislike entirely. I could only play Darksiders because under the hood it was Zelda and the story was biblically intriguing to me. I can only play Minecraft because the gameplay itself is ingenious and it makes up for graphics and story.

[Hyan]

its just laziness

It's never laziness

[Shaskoru]

1) Name a company that has kept the exact same game, yet completely overhauled the engine. I can think of 0 MMOs currently on the market, unless we're talking like Ultima Online or something.
2) If the technology slows down, then its the fault of the company. A common fear with this game is that it'll die before it can take off, but it should be fine by March if they hold true to the promises that they've recently made. You don't need 3 mil subs to keep the funds rolling in. It takes a surprisingly small amount of subs to keep a game breaking even, let alone profitable.
3) I am basing it on sheer tech. WoW's tech is inferior in terms of sheer graphics. Its not an opinion. Therefore, to argue the latter shows that you really don't have an argument in that matter.

The only subjectivity dwells within the range of "what do I think is good-looking?", and that can be debated to death. What cannot be debated, however, is the fact that WoW's engine runs more like a 4-cylinder Vtech: small, yet refined and endlessly re-tweaked for its maximum performance, and FFXI + FFXIV were more of a standard V8: powerful, with plenty of muscle, yet open-ended as to the amount of refinement that goes/went in. The result is a series of very stiff games, where WoW feels much more fluid.

That little 4-banger is weaker than a V8, even if it is far better optimized.

1. I never said a company had executed it--I said that it was entirely possible but impractical.

2. I worded this poorly, but I referring to the fact that technology is progressing at an extremely fast rate and unless it (technology) slows down, FFXIV's visual appearance will be considered outdated in 5 years without a doubt (unless, as it has been pointed out, they upgrade the engine).

3. That's what I said too?

I agree with the rest of your post.

I'm curious, can you come up with anything to actually attack me with other then calling me a white knight while I clearly state how I enjoyed WoW, am going to go back to playing WoW, state things wrong with FFXIV and my desire for changes to happen. Apparently you and others seem to not know what white knight is anymore, or just want to heap ANYONE who does not share your utter livid hatred of the game into 1 side.


NO ONE CAN BE ON THE FENCE YOU ARE EITHER A WHITE KNIGHT OR A DEFENDER OF TRUTH AND JUSTICE IN THE MMO WORLD HUZZAH!!

You're an imbecile. I was talking to Hyan. Again, way to reinforce (third time now) your ignorance.

No, it actually can not be done very well. If you base your entire playerbase on people having outdated systems and being able to play from their grandmothers laptop, and then suddenly tweak the game to play on higher end systems...you are losing customers and that's bad business.

Practical: Does anyone know what the fuck this means?

As Hyan put it, MMOs are not at the forefront of graphics and innovation in gameplay. We don't have a Crysis MMO or Portal MMO or anything of that kind. FF11, and ill assume the same for 14, were made to be played on very high end systems at their release time, and eventually become more average. WoW was created with the bare minimum in mind from the start and never really improved. Look at the models for WoW, most of the starter races look like ass now even compared to the newer races (which still arnt very impressive).

As I stated to Lucavi, my comment was worded poorly. See #2 above for clarification.

Oh, and for the record, WoW is more graphically intensive than people are giving it credit. It has been upgraded over the years to make use of DirectX10 and, with Cataclysm, DirectX11 features. The art may be holding it back, but it's most definitely not the bare minimum as far as general graphical capabilities go.