FFXIV Flame Wars Thread: because ten threads is not enough threads

[Hyan]

(beside, if you don't want last year graphic, you wouldnt want this year graphic next year).

As long as the competition doesn't get too far away I don't think this is an issue. I doubt we'll see massive increase in graphics before they release next gen consoles, and that's still some time away.

I think XIV's graphics would be "as good" even 3 years from now.

Can you tell me where in the development something went wrong? What make you think they could have done better with the current graphics?

Well, they have prepared around.. 10 regions for us in this Vanilla. They could have skipped one or two and done more with the existing regions for example.

[Kaylia]

As long the competition doesn't get too far away? What competion FFXIV had that forced them to go all out on graphics?

Well, they have prepared around.. 10 regions for us in this Vanilla. They could have skipped one or two and done more with the existing regions for example.

Moving artist around wouldn't solve any problems. They are the one working around the limitations, not the one imposing them.

[Hyan]

I mean the graphics in general. XIV as it is is already behind other genres. You always compare the graphic of games to the best example out there. I don't think just because it's an MMO is some excuse. Especially when these PC-only games are barely on par with current gen consoles, which came out 4 years ago and were already dated out of the box.

And even worse is that these games aren't meant to be played for years, but maybe few months after release at best. There is no pressure to keep the graphics in good shape for long period of time. Yet they always look better.

Moving artist around wouldn't solve any problems. They are the one working around the limitations, not the one imposing them.

Fire artists, hire people who can get rid of the limitations?

Make artists work on something that makes the world feel more lively?

[Kaylia]

I mean the graphics in general. XIV as it is is already behind other genres. You always compare the graphic of games to the best example out there. I don't think just because it's an MMO is some excuse. Especially when these PC-only games are barely on par with current gen consoles, which came out 4 years ago and were already dated out of the box.

And even worse is that these games aren't meant to be played for years, but maybe few months after release at best. There is no pressure to keep the graphics in good shape for long period of time. Yet they always look better.

It's not an excuse. MMO are dealing with constraints not present in other genre (huge world, large amount of monsters and players). It's ridiculous to wish for graphics that match other game.

Fire artists, hire people who can get rid of the limitations?

Make artists work on something that makes the world feel more lively?

You can't get rid of constraints imposed by the hardware. You can optimize your code sometimes, but the best solution is to go for inferior graphics.

[Hyan]

It's not an excuse. MMO are dealing with constraints not present in other genre (huge world, large amount of monsters and players). It's ridiculous to wish for graphics that match other game.

I'm not asking them to. I just think there should be a standard and right now it is too low. XIV is not as good looking as other games, but it is still acceptable.

Other MMO are already so much behind, when this genre needs good graphics more than any other genre. Their gameplay is also much behind other genres. But I don't think they can affect that with the current server limitation even if they optimize.

You can't get rid of constraints imposed by the hardware. You can optimize your code sometimes, but the best solution is to go for inferior graphics.

Why is it the best solution if you can optimize?

[CasualPlayer]

It's not an excuse. MMO are dealing with constraints not present in other genre (huge world, large amount of monsters and players). It's ridiculous to wish for graphics that match other game.

Except the graphics of ffxiv are better than most other games.

You can't get rid of constraints imposed by the hardware. You can optimize your code sometimes, but the best solution is to go for inferior graphics.

Smells like an incoming WoW plug.

Coincidentally, Hyan is right. Ideally mmos have a life cycle of at least 10 years. You start with the best graphics so your game doesn't look like complete shit towards the end of its life. Say w/e you want about the "artistic" brilliance of WoW, graphically it looks like crap compared to just about any game released since 05. Imagine how it will look in 2015.

[Katlan]

I just don't think graphics are all that important in a mmo (and I have a beast of a computer). I mean the mmo needs to have good graphics, but trying to have better mmo graphics then a console game (or as good) is just asking for optimization trouble when needing to plan for all types of machines playing the game. Yes, WoW looks blocky, but the way they filled the world and the creative nature behind the artists makes the game look 10x better then it's 6+ year old tech should allow. They make the world feel alive and so colorful and so much going on that you look past the old tech, because the game looks good. WAR is the same way.

XIV sacrificed a lot to get the "best graphics" possible. They relied on a lot of copy / pasted areas, less detailed environments for larger scale, less populated worlds, less diversity, ect... and in the end I don't think it was worth it

[Lucavi]

I had a huge post drawn up, but it was consumed, so I'll simply leave it at this:

Vanilla WoW re-used a ton of textures, models, and areas. They started to spice it up in their expansions, giving us wonderful zones like Terrokar Forest and Storm Peaks.

XIV is totally guilty of obvious copy-pasting, and is not getting a free pass, but I'm going to give them the same leeway that WoW received with its copy pasting. When the first expansion rolls around for XIV and I'm seeing shit just like LL or Grid, that's when my (non-ban) hammer will come smashing down.

I agree with CP and the others: Graphics mean a ton. WoW bucked the trend, but plenty of graphically-superior games before it (for their time) like Asheron's Call sold very well. Compare Asheron's Call with Everquest; there was no comparison.

MMOs want to start out with good looking graphics and a solid engine because they're going to get better as the game goes on, and also because you can't just start over mid-way through the adventure and throw in a new engine. XI looks dated as shit now because of the passage of time, but the adventure isn't over. Its not like a console RPG where each mini adventure is it, and you can bring in a new engine for the next game.

If this game looks like a hot mess now, its going to still look like a hot mess in 8 years; just a refined hot mess. XIV simply needs to receive a lot of work with optimization, needs to have DX10 tech integrated into the PC (with an eventual push for DX11), and needs SE to unchain the PC quality from the PS3, and stop punishing PC players for playing a game that is shared with consoles.

Edit: It also needs to learn some anti-aliasing. I'm sick of playing unoptimized PC games with jaggies galore. SMOOTH THAT SHIT OUT.

[ronin sparthos]

I really don't know how many times people have to say it but graphics are hardly as important as people make them out to be in an MMO. The honeymoon period with a game with good graphics and shoddy gameplay wears off quickly as FFXIV and other MMOs have found out the hard way.

You ideally want graphics that are just good enough to get your foot in the door with the potential consumer. They can't be jaw-dropping bad but they don't need to be cutting edge either because what will determine if your potential consumer will stay with you rests on gameplay. A happy medium on graphics is enough to have most people give your game a chance.

Having cutting edge graphics that shuns people with lower-end PCs is potential money leaving your MMO for another. Sure, you'll have a sect of people complaining about how bad your game looks in comparison to *insert some console game here* but that isn't the goal of an MMO, the goal is to get as many subs as possible and keep them as long as possible.

Everyone states WoW as the game with horrible graphics yet that game is pulling in sub counts that FFXI and XIV could only dream of. I wonder why? That game isn't flawless.

Oh right, it's because graphics aren't priority though they aren't completely ignored. The current leader in the MMO market is the definitive proof that graphics ultimately mean shit in the MMO genre. You can use graphics as a hook but if there isn't something beneath that hook, all you've done is delay the inevitable lashback from your consumer.

[notorious bum]

I find it funny that these white knight cats still cling onto FFXIV graphics like its something worth standing on its own. Your shitty map design will NOT improve because, hey, what do you know? SE is still writing shitty spaghetti code and thinks the gaming population is a bunch of suckers; giving that BS excuse that copy-pasted chunks aren't shortcuts, but actually, this shit is TOO ADVANCED! hahaha.

Yeah, having too many unique BUILDING BLOCKS will clog memory, that is an extremely missleading and borderline fraud statement.

Really, high poly-counts is not fucking special, FFXIV is a great example of diminished returns when you place technicalities over matured design. Contrived/Unmemorable environments, bland armor design, and zones devoid of life with punishing grind-focused gameplay that forces you to remain in stagnation; everything points to pushing this shit out with zero regard towards the gamer.

Hell, you WISH this game had Crysis-style graphics and design that shipped with its high requirements.

[Hyan]

Sure, you'll have a sect of people complaining about how bad your game looks in comparison to *insert some console game here* but that isn't the goal of an MMO, the goal is to get as many subs as possible and keep them as long as possible.

You know what? Simply getting as many initial subs as possible may not be the best way to get as many subs and keep them as long as possible.

The goal of an MMO is to last, and stay fresh for as long as possible, and you sure as hell won't accomplish that with your Wii graphics.

Not everyone must start playing as soon as the game hits shelves. When a game lasts 8 years, and an average customer will play it for.... 1? 2? 3? years, it doesn't matter whether he starts on release, or 2 years after. What is important is how long said customer will keep playing the game..

And now let's make a comparison. Is it unreasonable to assume that an MMO that has been in the development for 2 years would have a lot more content and fixes than a fresh new MMO out of the box? I don't think so.

Now, from the potential customer's perspective, which scenario will keep him playing longer? If he starts at release, or after 2 years?

That said, whether customer X can play the game during release or not is hardly an issue, as once technology advances and so does his hardware he can join in later, and potentially stay subscribed for longer as well.

[Lucavi]

Sad part is, Hyan, for all of what you just posted, someone can easily point to WoW to shut it all down. I know people that played WoW at vanilla launch and still play, where I played 3 and a half years after it came out, yet played for about a year and three quarters.

If the game is fun, people will play it, and play it for a long time. I can't debate that, because its true. WoW gets old like anything else, but when it wants to be, WoW is fucking -fun-.

[Hyan]

WoW isn't some counter-argument, it is simply another perspective to look at the same situation.

It does not even try to accomplish what I described, because it doesn't have to. It's strategy is whole different, and won't work for anyone else but WoW. It could also do better, but it's not like it has to.

For everyone else, what I said applies.

[Lucavi]

Its a perspective, alright; a 11+ mill sub with just 6 years under its belt perspective, and, fortunately or unfortunately, every other company has had to sit up and take notice.

[ronin sparthos]

You know what? Simply getting as many initial subs as possible may not be the best way to get as many subs and keep them as long as possible.

Why not? Grabbing people while your game is new is the best possible chance to start the game off with a healthy base of players. These people might quit when things don't go the way they want but it's very likely they'll return if you, the developer puts substance before visual eye-candy.

For a developer, getting more subs means more resources can be devoted to the game as time goes on. A poor release generally means playing catch up for years to come so that initial grab for subs matters. Graphics do not keep people playing for extended periods of time, good gameplay does.

The goal of an MMO is to last, and stay fresh for as long as possible, and you sure as hell won't accomplish that with your Wii graphics.

No, good marketing and positive vibes keeps your game "fresh" for as long as possible. This again has little to do with graphics (which matter, just not beyond the initial play) and more to do with managerial decisions, player reception and industry reviews.

Tell me why wouldn't average graphics make a good game again?

Not everyone must start playing as soon as the game hits shelves. When a game lasts 8 years, and an average customer will play it for.... 1? 2? 3? years, it doesn't matter whether he starts on release, or 2 years after. What is important is how long said customer will keep playing the game..

If the game gets a good reputation and has average graphics, it will last for years to come so long as the developers continue to produce content.

You need people to build a base from the start or who cares about 1-3 years down the road? The game could be in shambles by then or playing catchup. When the game is "old", the customer will likely pick it up based on gameplay (reputation) since usually by then its graphics would have been outdated.

Ultimately most people want to be part of a world where things are on the move. Graphics are a great aid to get someone to play a game but resources need to be put into the gameplay of an MMO or it will fail. Ultimately great graphics are just icing on the cake but it cant substitute the cake itself.

[Kaylia]

Except the graphics of ffxiv are better than most other games.

Hence why I claimed they spent too much time on something that didnt help the game.

The good graphics came at the cost of shitty map design (copy paste) and tight release schedule (delivered an unfinished game). If you're fine with these things, then please, enjoy the game by all mean.

I'm not asking them to. I just think there should be a standard and right now it is too low. XIV is not as good looking as other games, but it is still acceptable.

Other MMO are already so much behind, when this genre needs good graphics more than any other genre. Their gameplay is also much behind other genres. But I don't think they can affect that with the current server limitation even if they optimize.


Why is it the best solution if you can optimize?

The genre need better graphics? Really? It need better graphics even if it doesnt make the game look better in overall because of the limitation?


About your last comment, optimizing older graphics is much easier than optimizing a cutting edge technology.

[Don Katsu]

Optimization, optimization, optimization. Crysis ran excellent on lower-end PCs when the settings were turned down. FFXIV runs like trash on anything that isn't top of the line even on lesser settings.

Grades for graphics isn't all about how pretty it looks, but also takes into account optimization, the range of the graphics, ect.

Don't be so quick to slander the judging process.

FFXI got an 8 in graphics and that game was coded just as bad if not worse than XIV. FFXI also launched with very dated/bland graphics.

IGN gave XIV a 7 because they didn't want to give it a higher overall score. End of story.

[notorious bum]

FFXI got an 8 in graphics and that game was coded just as bad if not worse than XIV. FFXI also launched with very dated/bland graphics.

IGN gave XIV a 7 because they didn't want to give it a higher overall score. End of story.

No, more like:

FFXI= 8 - Distinguishable, respectable graphics for a PS2 release; runs bad, yet playable.

FFXIV= 7 - These graphics are pretty good, but nothing is awe-worthy, the coding screams "we still suck at this" and the graphics quickly become underwhelming after trudging hours through the monotonous and generic canvas.

[Correction]

My speculative opinions are fact. End of story.

This thread continues to deliver.

[Enkidu]

The genre need better graphics? Really? It need better graphics even if it doesnt make the game look better in overall because of the limitation?

I'd agree with Hyan that overall MMO's need better graphical standards.

It's not so much a limitation as it is a tough job. SE may say that they copypasta'd landscapes to save on memory, but I'm pretty sure it was just to save on time. The wire-frame that undoubtedly holds the world together shouldn't cost much memory wise. The textures, yeah they cost memory, but they could have spent time carving out the landscape better...

So it's a limitation for SE, because well... they were rushing the release and thought it wouldn't matter. It's not a limitation for other developers, like Blizzard for example. I'm hoping their next MMO delivers a better graphical experience without taking away from gameplay and other (more) important aspects of the game. So all in all I personally think SE failed in all aspects of designing and launching FFXIV, unfortunately. Usually they at least get the graphics right.