FFXIV Flame Wars Thread: because ten threads is not enough threads

[notorious bum]

exactly, that memory excuse they gave will only work for the casual gamer audience who know jack about game design. Its as if that pretty sculpt tool they were showing off in the youtube vids doesn't exist for their map editor, wtf?

[miokomioko]

exactly, that memory excuse they gave will only work for the casual gamer audience who know jack about game design. Its as if that pretty sculpt tool they were showing off in the youtube vids doesn't exist for their map editor, wtf?

99% of people who play games don't know jack shit about game design. Most of the people blurting out bullshit about bad design/development/concept/etc. don't know game design from a hole in their ass.

[notorious bum]

If you were trying to correct me, please do, otherwise idgaf I've basically been preaching this the whole time lol

[Meresgi]

exactly, that memory excuse they gave will only work for the casual gamer audience who know jack about game design. Its as if that pretty sculpt tool they were showing off in the youtube vids doesn't exist for their map editor, wtf?

Not saying you're wrong about the memory, but it IS a common practice used by pretty much every game developer ever... so I would assume there is good reason beyond just being lazy.

Also could you post links as to why you believe that it doesnt have an effect on memory?

[Kaylia]

I'd agree with Hyan that overall MMO's need better graphical standards.

It's not so much a limitation as it is a tough job. SE may say that they copypasta'd landscapes to save on memory, but I'm pretty sure it was just to save on time. The wire-frame that undoubtedly holds the world together shouldn't cost much memory wise. The textures, yeah they cost memory, but they could have spent time carving out the landscape better...

So it's a limitation for SE, because well... they were rushing the release and thought it wouldn't matter. It's not a limitation for other developers, like Blizzard for example. I'm hoping their next MMO delivers a better graphical experience without taking away from gameplay and other (more) important aspects of the game. So all in all I personally think SE failed in all aspects of designing and launching FFXIV, unfortunately. Usually they at least get the graphics right.

Diversity (graphic effect, texture, mapping..etc), and draw distance (how much you're going to load)...that's the things you want to consider when you design the world.

I agree the copy pasted rock formation is not the biggest issue for the memory , but what hurt environment the most is the single palette they use in every zone. That's what make the world boring.

[Meresgi]

Diversity (graphic effect, texture, mapping..etc), and draw distance (how much you're going to load)...that's the things you want to consider when you design the world.

I agree the copy pasted rock formation is not the biggest issue for the memory , but what hurt environment the most is the single palette they use in every zone. That's what make the world boring.

Again, where are you getting this from? Do you have a background in game design and 2d/3d art and texture development? From my basic understanding I would assume the lack of diversity, at least in environmental detail is that you can't have thousands upon thousands of textures and shapes all stored and waiting for reference. It makes far more sense to great 5 boulders and use them 100 times, then to create 100 boulders. Especially if a single boulder is 2-6MB in file size. While the morpher thing they showcased might work around this, I do not know. To me it just showed that they have an easy time turning 1 armor into another, and that had nothing to do with memory. Each armor was its own armor set, and wasn't morphed in real time within the game (Correct me if i'm wrong here).

single palette they use in every zone. That's what make the world boring.

What palette? Maybe im not understanding you right, but each zone has a vastly different feel in both color and objects to other zones. While each zone does have reused items, textures and so on, I don't see many repeats from zone to zone...unless we're talking something like dirt or water.


Something I found:

It is possible to reuse portions of a custom texture to save space and time. One way to reuse a portion of texture is to mirror from the right side of an object to the left side.

In video games, disk space and memory are always a concern, so mirroring of textures is common. A texture can be resized for game optimization at longer distances, which is called a mipmap. The texture size is quartered several times to create a smaller file size.

It requires time, work, money, and storage space to create a decent-looking video game sprite, and even more of the same to create a 3D model. Giving each individual character in the game a distinct look borders on madness. As a result, most video game worlds have only about seven or eight distinct body types for NPCs. This means that wherever you go, you'll see the same person over and over again... only it's not them! It's almost creepy, and starts to make you wonder if there hasn't been some massive inbreeding going on.

Generally, there are two or three "adult male" bodies, two or three "adult female" bodies, one body each for male and female children, and one body each for male and female elders. Things get worse for non-human races; you're lucky if males and females even get separate sprites!

While this is present in a lot of games, it's most notable in RPGs, where there are NPCs by the bucketful that you often have to actually interact with. A corollary is that if you ever see someone who isn't using a stock body, you can bet that he or she will be important to the plot, even if in a minor way.

[Enkidu]

Again, where are you getting this from? Do you have a background in game design and 2d/3d art and texture development? From my basic understanding I would assume the lack of diversity, at least in environmental detail is that you can't have thousands upon thousands of textures and shapes all stored and waiting for reference. It makes far more sense to great 5 boulders and use them 100 times, then to create 100 boulders. Especially if a single boulder is 2-6MB in file size. While the morpher thing they showcased might work around this, I do not know. To me it just showed that they have an easy time turning 1 armor into another, and that had nothing to do with memory. Each armor was its own armor set, and wasn't morphed in real time within the game (Correct me if i'm wrong here).

I'm not sure how FFXIV handles textures and honestly it's been awhile since I've modded games, but from what I recall they shouldn't have to load a "boulder", but rather there's a wireframe of a boulder with a boulder texture wrapped around it.

That said, they could wrap said boulder texture over any size or shape boulder. So if the boulder texture is 10mb, it's loaded once and applied wherever necessary. The only game I've seen that deviates from the wireframe/texture model is Rage, in which each map is essentially one big texture file. Like I said I'm not exactly sure, but it would be incredibly silly to have to load each and every on screen item individually and I can't believe any game would work that way. Though the way FFXIV plays it wouldn't surprise me.

[Lucavi]

^ This. This is why you can have 3,000,000 combinations of a single type of item. Valve does this with just about all of their stuff. Its how they can brag that they have over a billion combinations of a variant of human or something.

You mix and match the meshes on top of the texture. You simply have to randomly color the textures (not a lot of memory), and swap individual mesh parts. It doesn't take a terrible amount of memory.

[miokomioko]

Also, it's entirely possible that they can currently have "unused" wireframes/polygons on equipment by wrapping those parts of the model with transparent values in the texture that can be later filled in to make an entirely different looking item on the same with the model. It's a very smart way to go about the memory issues of equipment models in MMOs.

[Katlan]

FFXI got an 8 in graphics and that game was coded just as bad if not worse than XIV. FFXI also launched with very dated/bland graphics.

IGN gave XIV a 7 because they didn't want to give it a higher overall score. End of story.

that makes no sense, gave reviews don't average the score of all the components anymore. They could give the graphics a 10 and still rate the game a 5.5. They gave the graphics a 7 because of how poorly optimized the game is.. Game runs shitty on computers that run 4mhz CPU's and SLI 480's on water. The fact ppl need a CPU OC'd to 5mhz+ to see good gains everywhere is absolutely rediculous and falls on poor optimization and an over reliance on the CPU

[miokomioko]

The fact ppl need a CPU OC'd to 5mhz+ to see good gains everywhere

If you're going to argue about technicalities, try not to embellish so much.

[Hyan]

For a developer, getting more subs means more resources can be devoted to the game as time goes on. A poor release generally means playing catch up for years to come so that initial grab for subs matters. Graphics do not keep people playing for extended periods of time, good gameplay does.

Why do you consider it a "poor release" if the majority of your potential players don't start playing right off the start? Just because the system requirements may be high is not an indicator that the release will be poor.

I don't know why you bring gameplay into this argument about graphics. As long as your gameplay is up to the MMO standard (which isn't that high), maybe with a twist or two, it'll work out. I'd say content is even more important here, as good gameplay doesn't cut it if there's nothing to do for extended periods of time.

This again has little to do with graphics (which matter, just not beyond the initial play)

People are always looking at aesthetics first to judge their decisions. Your game needs one hell of a reputation so your average Tim will take a second look if the graphics are not even close to the industry standard.

You could see just how big of an issue people made about FFXI style graphics and fluff like character creation options when it came to XIV. They basically judged the whole game based on that factor alone. As shallow as that is, that's people for you.

If the game gets a good reputation and has average graphics, it will last for years to come so long as the developers continue to produce content.

Of course it will last. But there will come a time when the game just isn't that appealing anymore, no matter how good of a reputation it has. Average graphics (at the time of the release) definitely don't help with that.

You need people to build a base from the start or who cares about 1-3 years down the road? The game could be in shambles by then or playing catchup. When the game is "old", the customer will likely pick it up based on gameplay (reputation) since usually by then its graphics would have been outdated.

Do you think for example this game's graphics will be outdated in a few years? You need to make it so they won't be outdated that easily, otherwise it's all moot.

Ultimately most people want to be part of a world where things are on the move. Graphics are a great aid to get someone to play a game but resources need to be put into the gameplay of an MMO or it will fail. Ultimately great graphics are just icing on the cake but it cant substitute the cake itself.

Of course graphics are secondary to gameplay. What I've been saying is that you can't just ignore graphics for gameplay when the gameplay will still be inferior to everything else out there due to whatever limitations MMO's have to cope with.

Then you have mediocre graphics and subpar gameplay instead of good graphics and mediocre gameplay. People just don't give a shit as much as with other games; they wouldn't even touch MMO's otherwise. Content is what matters.

[Shade]

What palette? Maybe im not understanding you right, but each zone has a vastly different feel in both color and objects to other zones. While each zone does have reused items, textures and so on, I don't see many repeats from zone to zone...unless we're talking something like dirt or water.
Something I found:

The palettes within the zones are pretty consistent... like to the extent that a screenshot anywhere in the zone will probably have the exact same values. I think that it might be more interesting (esp. if we have giant single zones instead of many smaller ones) to have areas where certain color selections from the overall palette of the zone are more dominant. Shadowed forest paths where everything is deep green and browns, and later on it opens up onto a clearing where the sunlight lets brighter, more yellow tones in. A real forest would be like that. The FFXIV environment is very uniform, and that takes away part of the joy of exploration.

[Kaylia]

Again, where are you getting this from? Do you have a background in game design and 2d/3d art and texture development? From my basic understanding I would assume the lack of diversity, at least in environmental detail is that you can't have thousands upon thousands of textures and shapes all stored and waiting for reference. It makes far more sense to great 5 boulders and use them 100 times, then to create 100 boulders. Especially if a single boulder is 2-6MB in file size. While the morpher thing they showcased might work around this, I do not know. To me it just showed that they have an easy time turning 1 armor into another, and that had nothing to do with memory. Each armor was its own armor set, and wasn't morphed in real time within the game (Correct me if i'm wrong here).

I did some 3d programming with openGL, and a friend and I attempted to produce two indy games using Crystal Space (a 3d framework). That's not much, but it's more than enough to have an idea of the issue they encounter behind the scenes. Beside, it's not like you need much knowledge in the field to realize the problems are always the same.

There is nothing wrong with copy paste, and no one is asking for 100 unique boulders. The issue I'm bringing is that instead of using 5x 2-6MB boulders, why not go for 3x 1MB boulders, and spend the remaining memory on a building to fill the gap, add a npc fighting off the fauna...etc. The boulder wont look as good when you zoom in, but the world would gain more from this.

What palette? Maybe im not understanding you right, but each zone has a vastly different feel in both color and objects to other zones. While each zone does have reused items, textures and so on, I don't see many repeats from zone to zone...unless we're talking something like dirt or water.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GRVjq...eature=related
What variety do you see in the first 12 minutes? You could stop anywhere, take a screenshot, and it would look exactly like the previous one.

After 12 minutes, bam, the magical loading change everything around you. You don't even get to see the transition from the desertic region to the forest. The next 20 minutes are filled with the exact same thing.

That's not what most people want to see when they play a game. Such a large, empty and repetitive environment is the complete opposite of immersive. It's alienating to see the exact same microclimate when you move to a new area. The city/starter area is the only place I've seen that is visually interesting.

Anyway, there is obviously some poor design choice, but I think the main issue remain the constraints they had to works around. If no single area can use more than x amount of rams, you will spend a lot more time crafting every single piece of land to make it looks good. This time wasted is time you won't spend improving another area.

[Riposte]

I wonder if Ishgard will be necessary in March. Doesn't seem to be coming then. We could just be scratching the surface of the content planned for our present areas. Likely it won't be enough for those hitting 50 now.

[Hyan]

I think Ishgard will be coming in March.. along with a new class. Even if they didn't state so in the news post.

[Meresgi]

There is nothing wrong with copy paste, and no one is asking for 100 unique boulders. The issue I'm bringing is that instead of using 5x 2-6MB boulders, why not go for 3x 1MB boulders, and spend the remaining memory on a building to fill the gap, add a npc fighting off the fauna...etc. The boulder wont look as good when you zoom in, but the world would gain more from this.

I have to agree with you here. I always found it odd that some leves talk about us fighting off dodos that steal food from farmers, or other monsters attacking nearby villages....yet...these villages don't exist. There arnt even tents around outside of a camp.

What variety do you see in the first 12 minutes? You could stop anywhere, take a screenshot, and it would look exactly like the previous one.

After 12 minutes, bam, the magical loading change everything around you. You don't even get to see the transition from the desertic region to the forest. The next 20 minutes are filled with the exact same thing.

It makes sense for the run through Uldah to showcase the same type of environmental texture, but again I agree that the lack of transition is very abrupt. Even if they had just put some vines coming out of that small narrow entrance into Grid to show what you were coming into. It is a very harsh jolt via the cutscene.

[Hyan]

Hopefully they will add a zone in-between some of the more distinguished areas. La noscea to Thanalan makes perfect sense but the rest not so much.

This criticism came at the right time though, as the area designers are probably hard at work for the first expansion's areas already. They may even go back and adjust the yet unreleased Vanilla zones, but I doubt they will.

[Lucavi]

PCs shouldn't be the only form of "life" in a game. I think that's one of the general concepts that SE really needs to learn. There's no life in Eoreza right now, just NPCs standing and monsters walking a few inches here and there, but its been talked to death.

Its a fluff question, and one that certainly falls under many of the other important questions concerning the launch and future updates, but I'd like to see how SE plans on livening up the world.

[Hyan]

Same shit different interview, but w/e!

http://www.1up.com/news/final-fantas...producer-wrong

There really needed to be two different control schemes for console and PC, since both users interfaces work so differently from each other, but our development team didn't get around to that. Fixing this is one of the top priorities we'll be dealing with.

One of, he said? "There's a mountain of them," said director Nobuaki Komoto. "For now, we'll be fixing the issues on a regular basis via the version updates we have planned in November. We'll be covering the issues we previously discussed on our website, as well as those that pop up afterwards. However, new problems are being brought up more quickly than we can deal with them. The work's definitely piling up, but we will definitely fix them all."

But can you fix design?

Pretty straight talk from the director either way, lol.