FFXIV Flame Wars Thread: because ten threads is not enough threads

[Charismatic]

More common sense than luck, too bad common sense isn't that common anymore.

[Kaylia]

Succeeding at management without any training/experience = luck.

That's probably what it would look like from the perspective of an idiot, but smart people can do wonder in field that requires a strong common sense more than anything.

[miokomioko]

As Domon mentioned, "common sense" is an oxymoron. As long as someone has never encountered any serious predicaments, management skills are largely unused.

[Hyan]

Are you really comparing physics to management? Name me a single mathematicians or physicist who succeeded without studying? I can name you a ton of manager who did well without ever touching a school books. Experience obviously doesn't hurt, but it's by no mean a prerequisite to do well. All you need is smart people with a good grasp of the environment.

Not always. But this shit isn't like it used to be in the 20th century. Simply being smart doesn't cut it, especially not in the creative industry.

[edit]And shit. How can they manage a mmo if never touched one and don't know shit about programming? Using your reasoning, they shouldnt be able to understand what they are managing.

I'm saying it means jack shit if you don't know how to manage.

It is a subject in universities today like your precious physics are. Not just some management of a company with 10 people. It is a whole different game with companies as large as these. Things go slightly further than just shit that's "common sense".

[Kaylia]

Not always. But this shit isn't like it used to be in the 20th century. Simply being smart doesn't cut it, especially not in the creative industry.

I'm saying it means jack shit if you don't know how to manage.

It is a subject in universities today like your precious physics are. Not just some management of a company with 10 people. It is a whole different game with companies as large as these. Things go slightly further than just shit that's "common sense".

So, what do you know about the industry? Are you working in it? If no, how do you know such thing?

You have been arguing for 200 pages in this thread about technicality as if you know shit, then you pull that "no one here can't know anything" argument. You're killing me...



[edit]

And lastly, no one works alone in a big company. You can hire advisor when you feel the need to, that's what smart people do. They evaluate the risk, and do everything they can to reduce it.

[Kaylia]

@mioko,hyan and co

Please, post a problem that us, normal people, couldn't understand or solve. You keep mentioning that it's something we can't understand..so please, give me an example why we can't.

[Alderaan]

Also, fuck using a mouse. I still don't understand using a mouse over a keyboard for anything other than aiming a camera in first-person.

Mouse is superior in any combat situation where movement is important and also in PVP, which of course XIV has neither so it's moot i suppose.

WASD is too fucking slow.

[Meresgi]

I could throw some smartass comment like "programmers don't know shit about game design", which would be correct 90% of the time, but I'd rather not get into debate about who's the better armchair game dev critic on SE's Fail Express.

fucking LOL

You would be surprised how often people in charge have no idea what's going on in any industry.

Right, I have to lol at that. Most, if not all, people heading up projects don't just get tossed into them because they are the bosses son. That statement is almost as arrogant as it is stupid.

I can name you a ton of manager who did well without ever touching a school books. Experience obviously doesn't hurt, but it's by no mean a prerequisite to do well. All you need is smart people with a good grasp of the environment.

Actually no, if you forgo training what you need is natural leadership qualities. And despite what you, or most people may think, not EVERYONE has those qualities readily available. I'm curious, how many projects have you managed in the last few years worth over a million dollars US?

I've had tons of managers who I have wondered how they even tie their shoes correctly, let alone manage anyone, but they are usually middle management. Anyone I have worked with that was actually overseeing large budget projects that could cost a lot of money were usually very capable people, how had a lot of experience.

Do you really believe people in the industry are godlike being working on a completely different level than mere mortal like us? I'm not sure where you get the idea that we can't understand the scope of the issue they are dealing with.

No they are not godlike, but yes you do not know the intricacies they face and deal with day to day while working on what they do. Or have you worked with them on a similar project? Or with that at all? or for any major studio with the kind of budget and talent we are talking about?

They are professionals and know their job, or else they would not be doing it. It's amazing how arrogant people are nowadays where they think they could do a better job then anyone else, the moment that person makes an error. Hindsight is 20/20.

[miokomioko]

Mouse is superior in any combat situation where movement is important
WASD is too fucking slow.

I'm not sure I understand this. What are alternate, mouse-based means of character movement? Clicking a destination for your character to move to? (horrrible and slow to react) Clicking and dragging to move a certain direction? (same as WASD but less precise)

How could any means of movement be faster than the restriction put on how quickly your character runs? I'm curious to see games that use the mouse for primary, single-character movement that are more precise and fluid than WASD.

Being honest here, not trying to bicker.

[Alderaan]

Right, I have to lol at that. Most, if not all, people heading up projects don't just get tossed into them because they are the bosses son. That statement is almost as arrogant as it is stupid.

But i assume he's not talking about that. You would be surprised how often people in charge are in charge because they're good at managing people and not necessarily and sort of expert in the field they're running. It's up to them to surround themselves with people that are and manage them. While this is commonplace in other businesses, i'm not so sure it works that well in MMO's.

[Alderaan]

I'm not sure I understand this. What are alternate mouse-based means of moving? Clicking a destination for your character to move to? (horrrible) Clicking and dragging to move a certain direction? (same as WASD but less precise)

How could any means of movement be faster than the restriction put on how quickly your character runs? I'm curious to see games that use the mouse for primary movement that are more precise and fluid than WASD.

WASD is not fluid, it's choppy as all hell. Holding both mouse buttons down, which moves you and the camera at the same time, while performing actions with the keyboard is much more accurate for me anyways.

[Kaylia]

^
Can't strafe or move back like this.

wasd is fine. Most mmo have cooldown long enough to let you use your skills with the left hand, then go back to movement.

[edit]
Mouse is still the best choice for camera control and until the players get used to macro though.

[Meresgi]

But i assume he's not talking about that. You would be surprised how often people in charge are in charge because they're good at managing people and not necessarily and sort of expert in the field they're running. It's up to them to surround themselves with people that are and manage them. While this is commonplace in other businesses, i'm not so sure it works that well in MMO's.

I'm not sure about the whole corporate ladder structure of MMO firms but usually the people managing others actually worked their way through the field before hand. We might just be talking about different people, but all job postings I have seen for Lead (Anything) require at least 5yrs+ experience and a lot of work on known titles.

[Lucavi]

I'm not sure I understand this. What are alternate, mouse-based means of character movement? Clicking a destination for your character to move to? (horrrible and slow to react) Clicking and dragging to move a certain direction? (same as WASD but less precise)

How could any means of movement be faster than the restriction put on how quickly your character runs? I'm curious to see games that use the mouse for primary, single-character movement that are more precise and fluid than WASD.

Being honest here, not trying to bicker.

Just stop. Please. Please.


Please.

[miokomioko]

Just stop. Please. Please.


Please.

Why do you rapidly go to and fro between civility and total douchebag?

I'm honestly wondering of what mouse-based controls for 3rd person character movement are better than WASD. Tell me. It's curiosity, not a challenge.

[Lucavi]

How am I a douchebag? You have no idea what you're talking about, and I really don't want to have to hear you attempt to make some sort of rebuttal when people call you out for questioning something that is so obvious. If you wouldn't constantly refuse to back down from your "facts" when someone disproves you, I wouldn't have said anything.

There's no douchebaggery there.

[Charismatic]

I think he meant "why do you sometimes agree with me and disagree other times" because I'm pretty sure the only time you're civil in his eyes is when you agree with something he's said.
If you want someone you can count on, look no further; I won't ever be civil and you can count on that!

[Lucavi]

I suppose civility is relative in the minds of some people, even though its not.

Edit: In other news, Ocean Palace in CT is awesome.

[Charismatic]

Personally, I think the guy's batshit insane anyway... just me so that would make some sense in his case. I know some won't agree and that's fine but goddamn.

[miokomioko]

Oh my god. You got some hair up your ass tonight.

I'm not even arguing/debating about it. I'm trying to understand preferring a mouse to move when I think it's sloppy and unresponsive compared to a keyboard.

Maybe the problem is that when I say "WASD" I'm just talking about forward/backward/left/right being in a WASD/Arrow-Keys or similar formation on a keyboard and not the actual W, A, S, and D keys. I don't even use those, I use the numpad... Is this more of a compact keyboard issue? (maybe they don't know to hit numlock?) The numpad is just fine for allowing movement with the right hand and actions with the left.