FFXIV Flame Wars Thread: because ten threads is not enough threads

[Lucavi]

Oh, you got me bro. I didn't realize you were just trying to step in and one-liner me into submission like the rest of the jackasses instead of actually answering an honest question. Sorry to have wasted your time by forcing you come back and explain yourself, sir.

Also, as soon as arrow keys can control the camera, isn't this all irrelevant?

Are you kidding me? Hahahaha. Thank you, Mioko. That's the entirety of what I expected to see when I woke up this morning.

[solracht]

Not trying to defend him, but you instantly turn when pressing S in FFXIV and FFXI, and neither games have fast fights where you combine movement + using abilities (these are two big benefits of using mouse over wasd for moving). I don't really think FFXI or FFXIV would show these benefits even with proper mouse support because they're not fast paced enough for it.

If that's all he's played I can see how it'd be hard to relate. Maybe he's just trolling you though.

[Lucavi]

Mioko doesn't troll, he just doesn't know. Big difference.

Its painfully obvious that mouse-keyboard does, and would do little for SE's brand of games. There isn't a FF on the market that would actually benefit from it, because of the style.

[bruiser]

So much hypocrisy...

Do you realize you're doing what you're accusing me of? You have absolutely no experience in the field, yet, you talk like you know what they are dealing with.

I have experience in the field, and I can assure you that you would not do well. I mean this is just basic common sense. Would you be a good CEO? Would you be a good hedge fund manager? Would you be a good paralegal? What about an EMT? I'm not saying your'e stupid or anything, but how can you realistically expect to be good at something which you just have no experience with? You might be good SOMEDAY if you started at entry level and worked your way up. But really, honestly, you don't know anything about what game companies are dealing with on a daily basis and all the complexities involved in getting a game to market. Really.

Seriously, it's not like these jobs are so easy that anyone can do them. They require actual skills, experience, and industry specific knowledge. You might be a good assistant producer, but to say that if someone just handed you a massive wad of money to make a game you would just automatically do a great job because you're smart is pretty laughable. (Case in point: APB)

If you would be so good at it, why aren't you working for as a producer or designer for a game company?

Ok, suppose I'm interviewing you for a production position. I'm going to ask you one question. "We're working on the sequel for our AAA franchise, and we want to decide what features are important so that we can, obviously, sell more copies. What kind of ideas do you have that would help us in this regard?"

If you think this question is too vague, then I can assure that this is intentional, and it would be similarly vague in an actual job interview.

[Lordender]

If that were me I don't think I could give an honest answer to that question unless I was familiar with the first game and I went back and played it to see what and where we could make improvements so we don't repeat things that people didn't like in the first game.

The difference here is that SE had 8 years to take notes on what they failed on and what actually worked. They repeated a lot of the same mistakes with both games. How can anyone trust a company that continues to say they have learned a lot from past mistakes but it clearly shows they haven't because if SE had learned none of us would be posting in a flame wars thread over FFXIV on BG.

I'm sure SE had a lot of limitations to work around but that still doesn't explain the horrible menu systems, horrible fatigue system, complete fail retainer system, horrible uninspired magic effects, massive copy-pasted leve-quests/terrain's, terrible thought out crafting recipe's that make no sense(needing level 21 weaver for a rank 6 synth crafting tool). Random skill-gains, uninteresting classes that aren't FF like at all, horrible durability system, terrain issues like being stuck on a small cliff forcing you to go around etc. I could literally spend hours upon hours just talking about the massive amount of fail this game has.

They didn't learn shit from XI, I saw enough in a month of playing XIV that told me they STILL have no clue on what they are doing when it comes to MMO's.

[Hyan]

Most management types just have a Bach of Business and think they know how to run everything.

They are actually teaching us to forget about that mindset if you want to be a good manager. Especially when creating the company strategy that kind of thinking won't make it succeed... and from what I've seen companies making MMO's really need all the modern expertise possible to pull this off.

Of course that can be applied under "common sense" but really, these aren't some old facts that have been around since forever. Managers have always had that mindset and it is only now starting to change. And I seriously doubt every single manager has lacked "common sense" since the dawn of industrialism until now.

I don't have first-hand experience so I am not really qualified to make these claims, but I have listened to managers and researchers on this particular field and they all tell me the same thing: You can't succeed without learning the proper tools. On the ground level being an entrepreneur, it's not too hard and common sense can take you far, but Square-Enix is no flower shop with 6 employees.

Regardless, I'm sure he'd make the next WoW with facebook popularity if given the chance.

[bruiser]

If that were me I don't think I could give an honest answer to that question unless I was familiar with the first game and I went back and played it to see what and where we could make improvements so we don't repeat things that people didn't like in the first game.

Indeed, and that's kind of the point. With experience, you could give a couple of answers even without familiarity with the game.

[ronin sparthos]

If that were me I don't think I could give an honest answer to that question unless I was familiar with the first game and I went back and played it to see what and where we could make improvements so we don't repeat things that people didn't like in the first game.

The difference here is that SE had 8 years to take notes on what they failed on and what actually worked. They repeated a lot of the same mistakes with both games. How can anyone trust a company that continues to say they have learned a lot from past mistakes but it clearly shows they haven't because if SE had learned none of us would be posting in a flame wars thread over FFXIV on BG.

I'm sure SE had a lot of limitations to work around but that still doesn't explain the horrible menu systems, horrible fatigue system, complete fail retainer system, horrible uninspired magic effects, massive copy-pasted leve-quests/terrain's, terrible thought out crafting recipe's that make no sense(needing level 21 weaver for a rank 6 synth crafting tool). Random skill-gains, uninteresting classes that aren't FF like at all, horrible durability system, terrain issues like being stuck on a small cliff forcing you to go around etc. I could literally spend hours upon hours just talking about the massive amount of fail this game has.

They didn't learn shit from XI, I saw enough in a month of playing XIV that told me they STILL have no clue on what they are doing when it comes to MMO's.

God this.

This conversation took the scenic route for the past few pages but the bottom line remains that regardless of what us armchair developers think about FFXIV that the professionals working at SE produced a product that they themselves are not proud of at the moment. The players, media and even SE agree, FFXIV is not a good game and needs time to get up to speed. It doesn't take years of insider experience to come to that conclusion.

Few people are going to argue that the developers don't have limitations, pressure and have far more to deal with on their plate than we could ever imagine but that is irrelevant when so many of the SAME mistakes were made with this product when an existing product served as the training wheels for the company. No MMO launch is perfect but this launch was two steps backwards from XI and could likely place in "top 10 worst MMO launches" from a major developer.

If you never knew about FFXI would you come to the conclusion that Square-Enix has almost a decade of MMO experience under their belt after playing FFXIV? The clunky menu interface, lag issues and uninspired terrain don't seem so. Even though SE will fix most of this, the question is - why did it happen in the first place?

I'll give SE credit where its due and concede that the developers are far more direct in their future plans and owning up to a dud launch was a great move along with keeping the game free until problems are fixed but how much of this is just corporate save-face? Better question - will this last even after SE plugs the holes and gets FFXIV on track?

Attacking critics is well and good but most people who played FFXI beyond a casual level could have identified some of the critical flaws that crippled the FFXIV launch. Do you dismiss sports commentators because they haven't actually worked for any major sports teams if their assessments are grounded in good sense?

Sometimes fans can make better calls than the professionals that get paid the big bucks to make those same decisions.

[bruiser]

Sometimes fans can make better calls than the professionals that get paid the big bucks to make those same decisions.

Anyone can make a better call after the fact. If all of these armchair developers here had been in charge, the game wouldn't have even lasted 6 months in development, and certainly wouldn't have shipped.

And the only thing anyone here can say anyway is "they didn't make good decisions". Nobody knows what those decisions were, at what level they got made, who was / wasn't involved, or anything else for that matter. They failed, yes. Everyone gets it. Would anyone here have done better? Don't be ridiculous.

[miokomioko]

bitter nerds trying to invalidate others

[Lucavi]

Bitter at what? The fact that we know the difference between keyboard turning and mouse turning?

[miokomioko]

Bitter at what? The fact that we know the difference between keyboard turning and mouse turning?

I wasn't talking to you or about you.

[notorious bum]

oooooh, told you son.

[Hyan]

so many of the SAME mistakes were made with this product when an existing product served as the training wheels for the company.

Elaborate.

[Kaylia]

I think what Kaylia is trying to get at is you guys give management way too much credit. Most of the reasons why they got their positions is purely through networking and brown-nosing the right people. The reason why job ads look like management actually requires expertise in said fields is because ITS AN EMPLOYERS MARKET. They can advertise it because they know they can be extremely picky and that position will still get filled in a few weeks.

Unless you are the exception to the rule and are considered an innovator to your respective field, management is all about who can bark the loudest and using basic business knowledge with a side of psychology involved in manipulating folks to get things done.

Do you believe people in upper-management deserve to make 10-30X those under him?

Yep, pretty close to what I meant.

have experience in the field, and I can assure you that you would not do well. I mean this is just basic common sense. Would you be a good CEO? Would you be a good hedge fund manager? Would you be a good paralegal? What about an EMT? I'm not saying your'e stupid or anything, but how can you realistically expect to be good at something which you just have no experience with? You might be good SOMEDAY if you started at entry level and worked your way up. But really, honestly, you don't know anything about what game companies are dealing with on a daily basis and all the complexities involved in getting a game to market. Really.

Why am I not allowed to surround myself with competent people? Nothing stop you from delegating a good chunk of the works to people around you. Hell, you could hire Tanaka as director or advisor, and reduce your implication to a few specifics decisions that feel wrong.

If you would be so good at it, why aren't you working for as a producer or designer for a game company?

I find computational physics much more interesting than most jobs in the field. Program design and optimization is what I like to do, not management. Gaming industry do have some interesting jobs though, and that's why I was tempted by it for a while, but I'm proud of what I'm doing and see no reason to move anywhere else.

It's not about being so good, it's about doing better than someone who did terrible. The standard are not very high here. I don't believe inexperienced people would do better in overall than experienced people from the industry.

Ok, suppose I'm interviewing you for a production position. I'm going to ask you one question. "We're working on the sequel for our AAA franchise, and we want to decide what features are important so that we can, obviously, sell more copies. What kind of ideas do you have that would help us in this regard?"

If you think this question is too vague, then I can assure that this is intentional, and it would be similarly vague in an actual job interview.

You're right in that regard. This is the kind of vague question I was asked in many interviews. However, I don't think these answers test anything but your ability to talk in public.

Vague questions require equally vague answers. If you want to give a generic answer, you should talk about "consolidating the strength" (it's a succesful sequel, right? You don't fix what is not broken). you follow up with a word about understanding your current audience, and talk about the possibilities of attracting additional players using x,y,z innovations. In the end, you moderate your word saying that it is a difficult challenge that would require much more thought in a real context.

This is the kind of generic answer people gives. Personally, I would be honest and say exactly what I would do when faced with such situation. I sit down [with my team], make an exhaustive list of everything people like/hate, study the market and take a decision using the best of my knowledge.

[Meresgi]

http://img151.imageshack.us/img151/4...1411clip05.jpg

[Charismatic]

Oh, come the fuck on.
You don't even have to have been a genius to have avoided some of the mistakes they made, first of all being holding their beta periods so damn close to release which didn't give them enough time to implement changes they wanted made. Second is prioritizing small bugfixes over actually... changing some of the the TONS OF STUFF that people disliked about the game.

Bugs are things that players usually aren't too hard on unless they are game-breaking because they can be reasonably certain that the bugs will be fixed. It's easier for them to go in and fix bugs than actually change up their design... so basically it looks to everyone as if they just took the easy way out, and paid for it. But... you didn't need to be from the future to know that was going to happen.

MOST PEOPLE would have done things differently.

[Hyan]

You don't even have to have been a genius to have avoided some of the mistakes they made

I'd be surprised if any of us would do the same mistakes as these people did- doesn't mean we wouldn't screw up in ways they didn't. We only see the faults here, but if you seriously think nothing else could have gone wrong during the development- lol.

Second is prioritizing small bugfixes

What inside info do you have about what they prioritized? Or what impact it would have had if they didn't?

I also find it funny that Kaylia thinks he could just hire an advisor to make up for his incompetency as if he wouldn't get replaced for being useless. Yeah, just do what you want man, that's how it always works.

[Lucavi]

I'd be surprised if any of us would do the same mistakes as these people did- doesn't mean we wouldn't screw up in ways they didn't. We only see the faults here, but if you seriously think nothing else could have gone wrong during the development- lol.

To be fair, though, when something launches this badly, its only natural to say these kinds of things. I mean, honestly. Honestly.

Edit: And this is coming from the biggest old-school FF fan in existence.

[Charismatic]

What inside info do you have about what they prioritized?

Oh, I don't know... possibly the recent interview where they said that's what they did? :\ Try to keep up with current events before you go wildly swinging.

Also, after we got all the feedback during the beta stage, the players might’ve thought that we were not listening to them, because we were focusing on fixing the bugs

EDIT: Link to said interview... taken from this very thread only a couple of pages ago.
http://www.pcgamer.com/2010/11/15/in...happy-players/