FFXIV Flame Wars Thread: because ten threads is not enough threads

[Charismatic]

I don't know why I even bother responding to you and mioko anyway... same shit every time.

[Hyan]

Oh, I don't know... possibly the recent interview where they said that's what they did? :\

Yeah, they did say that. Without having seen said bugs we have no idea whether they were small "fleet of foot not working as intended" bugs or something much bigger.

I still remember the constant crashes during guildleves in beta though. And that was just in la noscea, iirc.

Either way I'd say the results would have been pretty much the same though. Just a wild guess.

[Charismatic]

Either way I'd say the results would have been pretty much the same though.

The point of my post was me saying I am pretty sure they wouldn't be at all the same because users do not feel the same way about bugs as they do about bad gameplay. Fallout: New Vegas is a perfect example. That game has more bugs than a sewer and yet it's generally praised. Yes, people do say it could have been a ton better without all the bugs and it's true but people find it easier to look past that than a game just generally being 'bad'. Both can be changed/patched but one generally leaves the expectation of being changed and the other does not.
Now you're caught up.

[Hyan]

The point of my post was me saying I am pretty sure they wouldn't be at all the same because users do not feel the same way about bugs as they do about bad gameplay.

And the point of my post was that it entirely depends on the bug.

I did notice people felt pretty strongly about their guildleves being cancelled due to program error or that a classes primary skill that is pretty much required for you to function did not work at all. I know lack of inventory sort wasn't too high on my list of "things that make me rage" at that time at least.

[Charismatic]

People wouldn't even mind disconnecting so much during guildleves if they were not poorly designed.
Automatically failing if you disconnect? That was a terrible idea from the start even without crashing because sometimes you just... disconnect. So, the main thing that made people rage about that goes right back to what I was already talking about.
You see how this works?


But were there some bugs they should have ironed out? Sure... but making sure the game is something the players are going to enjoy should never ever take a backseat to bugfixes especially since changing things up would be likely to cause bugs anyway. You might fix something and then end up undoing it when attempting to implement something as a result of wanting to change the way some aspect of the game works anyway.
But not having to make such decisions when down to the wire is also why they should have had more time between the beta phases and the actual game release as I've already said. This isn't even a "hindsight is 20/20" kinda thing either... it's a common practice.

[Hyan]

So, they should have fixed that part of GL design instead of fixing the crashing bugs?

Now you would still crash but hey, at least the GL's don't fail! Too bad the same could be accomplished by just taking care of the crashing issues that cause 99% of the failures in the first place. 2 birds, one stone.

Yeah, I see how it works.

But not having to make such decisions when down to the wire is also why they should have had more time between the beta phases and the actual game release as I've already said.

Yes, I don't think anyone disagrees with that. I'm just saying it's not as black and white as to how they should have used that remainder of beta time as it was clear the game wouldn't still be up to standard design wise even if they had ignored all the bugs and just focused on design.

It would be of course easier to forgive them if the game was well designed but buggy.. but really, the game would have still been badly designed- not as badly as now, but still pretty damn poor and "not acceptable"- and with a lot more bugs on top of it (more or less headache-inducing).

[Charismatic]

So, they should have fixed that part of GL design instead of fixing the crashing bugs?

Now you would still crash but hey, at least the GL's don't fail! Too bad the same could be accomplished by just taking care of the crashing issues that cause 99% of the failures in the first place. 2 birds, one stone.

Yeah, I see how it works.

It's not even two birds with one stone, you moron. Either option is 1 bird, 1 stone... but it's all about choosing which bird you want to hit.
If someone disconnects during a guildleve they STILL FAIL if this isn't changed. More people are going to be pissed about losing a chance to do a guildleve that they can't redo until 32 hours later than having to log back on and restart it. Hell, I don't even know why they can't just have it track your progress similar to FoV in FFXI anyway making it so that you wouldn't even have to start over if you logged off/disconnected/crashed.
And again, the crashing issue would be something the players would know a fix was coming for even without Square having to ever say anything... it's easier to look past.

Then there's also the fact that hotfixes can generally be (and more often are) added in at any old time, rather than having them wait for a full version update for a change like actual design changes. They could have easily done an emegency maintenance and applied the fix for this issue by now and for certain they would have.

[Charismatic]

It is all about priorities and they royally fucked up and did nonsensical things... they admit this, you should be able to.

[Hyan]

If someone disconnects during a guildleve they STILL FAIL if this isn't changed. More people are going to be pissed about losing a chance to do a guildleve that they can't redo until 32 hours later than having to log back on and restart it.

And more people are going to have to log back on and restart it than d/c through normal means. For 99 people to not crash 1 person needs to wait 32 hours. Instead of 100 people crashing but none having to wait 32 hours.

For 99 people, it's 2 birds and for this one poor fellow.. he can wait.

Then there's also the fact that hotfixes can generally be (and more often are) added in at any old time, rather than having them wait for a full version update for a change like actual design changes.

Nothing stops them from implementing design changes before the full VO. They have done this many times in the past 2 months.

[Charismatic]

It isn't 2 birds for anyone... the underlying issue is not changed until it's actually changed. It's still 1 bird. How can you not see this?
And no, given how much disconnecting there was during the week of the official launch, it wasn't anything like a 99:1 ratio. Not. Even. Fucking. Close.

[Hyan]

It isn't 2 birds for anyone... the underlying issue is not changed until it's actually changed. It's still 1 bird. How can you not see this?

It is, as these people wouldn't d/c if it wasn't for the bug. The underlying issue doesn't matter for anyone but those who d/c due to something else.

[Charismatic]

The underlying issue doesn't matter for anyone but those who d/c due to shitty internet.

lol, except the launch week and a few days after... and the crashing probably would have had a hotfix applies shortly thereafter if not in the first week since troubleshooting bugs and implementing fixes for them is generally easier than changing the way the game actually works after the service official service has begun as game after game has shown anyone who has been paying attention.
You clearly were not paying ANY attention during this game's launch because they DID fix the crashing issues before launch (to a degree, though there were still a good few instances of it which they also implemented a hotfix for already) and yet there were people losing guildleves left and right due to server issues... which kinda goes along with my point and not yours, heh.

[Hyan]

lol, except the launch week and a few days after...

Yeah, they should have ignored those problems too and just went for the GL design while everyone is d/cing left and right.

and the crashing probably would have had a hotfix applies shortly thereafter if not in the first week

Yeah man, probably.

Or then it wasn't something that is fixed just by snapping your fingers. It was around during beta for much longer than a fucking week, and even between updates. And that's with them focusing on taking care of the issues.

And I repeat:

Nothing stops them from implementing design changes before the full VO. They have done this many times in the past 2 months.

Had there been something so dire that it required a hotfix design wise before the VO's, they would have been able to implement it just fine.

[Charismatic]

You're actually stepping into my field a bit here and I can tell you, whether or not it actually took them that long to fix that particular issue (and it likely didn't)... it certainly should not have. That much I can say for sure.
I'd have been fired many times over if it took my team more than a day or two max to fix or at least generally tone down by a fair margin (so that we can focus on other things) a major crashing issue in a piece of software.

My guess is that they spent a lot of their time working on tons of little bugs that they really didn't need to worry about because they felt that their gameplay was solid and people would feel okay about it once they got used to it (the fact that they left so little time between beta and release tells me that they were pretty sure they weren't going to be changing much anyway). Seems like what Tanaka's crew would do based on my experience with FFXI. I doubt they even took a lot of the feedback too very seriously until they saw the numbers and noticed their game was bombing... now they are scrambling to do things they should have done while the game was still in beta.

[Hyan]

You're actually stepping into my field a bit here and I can tell you, whether or not it actually took them that long to fix that particular issue (and it likely didn't)... it certainly should not have. That much I can say for sure.

I'd have been fired many times over if it took my team more than a day or two max to fix or at least generally tone down by a fair margin (so that we can focus on other things) a major crashing issue in a piece of software.

I remember them mentioning this had to do with the server, and didn't occur with their version of the game. Only the testers had the problem. But I know you know this, since you're always so up to date about all the shit that comes out of your mouth.

So, I wonder how easy it would have been to fix the issue during retail when in Beta they at least had various monitoring tools running to detect these issues which no longer exist in the retail version?

[Hyan]

I don't know why I even bother responding to you and mioko anyway... same shit every time.

I doubt they even took a lot of the feedback too very seriously until they saw the numbers and noticed their game was bombing... now they are scrambling to do things they should have done while the game was still in beta.

Oh man, you took the words out of my mouth!

[Charismatic]

So... you agree with the fact that you and mioko spout meaningless nonsense and act as if we're in a void and not the real world all of the sudden? Well, that's a surprise.

[Hyan]

Oh, not too surprising you didn't get the point.

So, anything meaningful to say anymore? Or are you about to go all e-thug since you ran out of relevant shit to say?

[Charismatic]

No, I understood what you were trying to say but it's kind of retarded to make that point when you engaged me in an argument about their policy handling things during the beta phase. Did you forget what I initially was responding to when you quoted me? Or are you just looking at this as if the conversation just started randomly out of nowhere and we're just in a void here without Kaylia and Meresgi's posts mattering?

[Charismatic]

I mean, if we weren't already basically on the subject and I'd have brought that up, you might have had a leg to stand on but in this particular instance... of course I'm going to repeat that because it is relevant.