FFXIV Flame Wars Thread: because ten threads is not enough threads

[Hyan]

It is not relevant with my argument with you about bugs vs design (yes, which is a part of their policy handling things). I don't care where this argument started from. I am not arguing about their policy as a whole. If that particular sentence was meant for somebody else, then you ought to make it a bit more clear as I did not think you would just suddenly start talking about something irrelevant to the current topic.

Either way, if we're done with the bugs vs design argument then I'm done too.

A good move to derail the subject btw. It almost looked like you didn't know what the fuck you were talking about for a bit there!

[Charismatic]

I looked like I didn't know what I was talking about? Really?
Someone who doesn't understand that they made bad moves (when they themselves admit this) would think that, I guess. Not too surprising.

I guess in your eyes, rather than starting beta earlier... focusing more on changing game design changes than bugfixes and releasing the game having only addressed the very largest bugs that completely break the gameplay experience then fixing the rest after the initial design changes are implemented sounds worse than doing exactly what they did and giving users 3 free months of service and having to pay for all the upkeep costs for two months that should have been paid for and getting this much bad press and such low review scores.

[Hyan]

Yep. You wouldn't have changed the topic otherwise. If you want to prove me wrong, we can continue.

You don't even know whether this "we were working on bugs" is just an excuse for "we didn't take your feedback seriously and thus did not put all our efforts into the game" as you said before. The former certainly sounds better for PR than the latter.

[Lucavi]

This is what flame wars is all about.

Bombs away.

[Charismatic]

Neither of us can 'prove' anything, jackass... because it didn't happen. Give me a time-machine and some pull with Square-Enix and I'll prove it... otherwise it's impossible.
I can simply provide (numerous) examples of buggy games being well-received but we both already know you'd dismiss em anyway because that's how you operate. All you need to do is look at games that fail and games that succeed and look at the things they have in common. Some games that bomb hardcore are ones full of bugs, but it's never JUST that they are full of bugs, the game itself is also considered bad for many other reasons. Games that are successes often times will have plenty of bugs in them (many of the more open-ended western RPGs are fit here because they focus more on the game content than debugging the game), of course this isn't always or even generally the case but there's so many examples of it that you can't even begin to say that a game being buggy is worse than an ill designed game if you do your homework.

[Lucavi]

Neither of us can 'prove' anything, jackass.

That's really why I stopped arguing it as much as I used to. I focus more on the reality (the fact that it sucked, keyboard/mouse >> keyboard/keyboard, ect.) because its obvious that for every viewpoint you could have on who is to blame, someone else will argue the polar opposite.

[Hyan]

I guess in your eyes, rather than starting beta earlier... focusing more on changing game design changes than bugfixes and releasing the game having only addressed the very largest bugs that completely break the gameplay experience then fixing the rest after the initial design changes are implemented sounds worse than doing exactly what they did and giving users 3 free months of service and having to pay for all the upkeep costs for two months that should have been paid for and getting this much bad press and such low review scores.

Oh, I agree they should have started beta earlier. That's not even what I'm arguing!

I am only arguing about a part of their policy, as I said. Everything else remains the same. If we start adding more variables the whole argument changes. For doing things the way they did, dealing with bugs rather than design (if they are to be believed) was the right choice among all the wrong ones.

[Charismatic]

Perhaps you didn't notice that there's more words in that post. (not to mention I've already clarified my stance in an earlier post, I feel that even if they didn't start the beta sooner, they still should have done things as I've stated... I didn't add anything particularly new there) Try again.
We're already on this argument because you picked out a choice snippet of one post instead of addressing the entire thing... not going to have it happen twice.

[Hyan]

Nothing relevant in there.

Can you give me an example of a badly designed game with bugs doing better than a worse designed game without bugs?

I'm not going to start a new argument just because you don't even understand what the first argument is about.

[Riposte]

Wanted to write a mini-review of the game before the first major update. This will be a good way to measure changes down the line. Well, I wanted it to be a mini-review like a "one-minute review", but it is more like a "two and a half minute" review... still short and to the point. (Maybe just as inflammatory.)

Final Fantasy XIV (October 2010) [PC]
* (2/6)

Publisher: Square-Enix / Developer: SE PDD3
Genre: ARPG (MMO, Grinding)

If MMORPGs are released in a beta state, then this is an alpha. Most notably the UI is tedious in design with a worse-than-dial-up response. This applies to every menu-based action(everything, but walking). Inventory management is a nightmare. The rarity of hotkeys is noted. Downgraded from Final Fantasy XI, both the (bazaar-based) economy and party-gathering systems lack functionality. At first transportation seems quick, but many boring 10-20 minute jogs await even casual players.

The class system has vast freedom and is fun to play with. The battle system puts a strong emphasis on positioning and teamwork. Unfortunately, the game rarely presents the challenges to make you care (and the "Battle Regimen" combination attacks just don't work). Worse, its random-per-action "skill point" system encourages selfish party play. Tactics and efficiency lead to smaller rewards. You will also miss way too damn much. And targeting sucks. Naturally the game does get extremely grindy, solo play goes bad early on. The crafting system is intricate enough and matters a lot. It is not just a side-activity here. Downside is it greatly suffers from the crappy UI.

FFXIV is the best looking MMORPG yet - in textures, in motion, and in art design. The JRPG soundtrack is also welcomed, with a lot of battle music (all of which is classic Uematsu). The storyline's cutscenes are already better than what FFXI has to offer and that was ahead of the pack. It would be nice if the few worthwhile quests weren't so far apart in level requirements.

[Charismatic]

I'm not going to start a new argument just because you don't even understand what the first argument is about.

Hey moron, the what I'm telling you (and have been telling you) is that from the very start you took a snippet of one of my posts (which talked about extending the period of time they had to work on the game BEFORE even mentioning how they handled it. Saying their mistakes are two-fold. While I keep repeating this because these two issues certainly go hand-in-hand, I have also been telling you that I disagree with you thinking that my second point is wrong. I keep reiterating the first point because the second relies upon it and that is why they were mentioned together in my initial post.

Anyhow, example of a buggy game being more well-recieved than a non-buggy one due to design differences?

Tales of Graces:
http://www.andriasang.com/e/blog/200...rst_day_sales/
Famitsu Review Score: 9/9/9/9 = 36/40

Tales of Vesperia:
http://www.joystiq.com/2008/08/15/ta...oftware-sales/
Famitsu Review Score: 9/9/9/8 = 35/40



Graces came out after Vesperia (which generally means higher expectations), and got a higher review score yet it was RIDDLED with bugs. So many that the game got had recall on first edition copies (http://n4g.com/news/480979/namco-ban...-graces-recall). Vesperia was relatively bug-free in comparison.

[Hyan]

But that's just fucking retarded. You criticize their decision for focusing on bugs with the close release date they had to work with. They could have done exactly what you would have done had they more time to work on the game. You can't say you would have done things differently when you don't even know what they would have done in the same situation. All we know is that with the release date set so close to start of Beta, they focused on bugs instead of design. There is only one mistake there. The second one is no mistake with the circumstances they had to work in. That's what I'm arguing.

If they had more time and they still focused on bugs, then it would become a mistake. But we won't know what they would have done.

[Charismatic]

But that's just fucking retarded. You criticize their decision for focusing on bugs with the close release date they had to work with. They could have done exactly what you would have done had they more time to work on the game. You can't say you would have done things differently when you don't even know what they would have done in the same situation. All we know is that with the release date set so close to start of Beta, they focused on bugs instead of design. There is only one mistake there. The second one is no mistake with the circumstances they had to work in. That's what I'm arguing.

As I've said at least 3 times now, I still would have focused on content over bugfixes with the same deadlines and I've already explained my reasoning for it which is why I just posted the example of the game riddled with so many bugs it had to be recalled getting a (only slightly) better score and selling as much in a day as the other sold in a week.
Believe it or not, even with them being in the same series, the two games are quite a bit different from each other and the dodging and style-switching got the game a lot of attention and it's considered by many (though I am not of this mindset) to be the best in the series at this point and was even with the bugs.

It's also poised to receive an enhanced PS3 port just like Vesperia which will likely top the sales of the original based on past port sales in the series.

[Hyan]

Yes, and I have explained why I think that would have not made things better (and in some cases maybe even worse).

I don't know why you even brought up that I took a snippet of your post as if that was somehow relevant and would have changed anything.

[Charismatic]

I don't know why you even brought up that I took a snippet of your post as if that was somehow relevant and would have changed anything.

It does because you're arguing a point that I wasn't originally making anyway. I do happen to also feel what you thought I was saying is the case... but it's not even what I was originally saying.
The point of the post was really that they never should have been in that situation anyway and not having been in the situation (due to proper planning of the timing of the beta) how they should have handled things.

[Hyan]

I got confused by the wording then (calling them mistakes when you wouldn't have known whether they would have made the second mistake or not if things were different and what is either way IMO just one mistake that affected many things, hence my argument) and took them as separate points.

It's so annoying to argue with you btw. The insults are really useless.

[Charismatic]

It's so annoying to argue with you btw. The insults are really useless.

Am I supposed to feel bad about it or something? Because... I don't.
If you come to flame wars expecting not to get flamed, you're dumber than you appear to be.

[Hyan]

Not really. I think it is useless and adds nothing to the argument, but also makes you look dumber than you appear to be.

It's not something I'd expect any smart guy to do. No matter the thread.


German interview with a bad english translation:

http://jpgames.de/specials/final-fan...w.html#english

[Charismatic]

Because being smart precludes you from insulting people... okay. Makes sense.
And yeah, backhanded insults are no better homeslice. At least I'm up front with it.

[Kaylia]

@Domon/Hyan
Domon is right. People's tolerance to bug is much higher than their tolerance to shitty content.

It's particularly true for ex-ffxi players who know how long bad design decision can stay in game.

http://img151.imageshack.us/img151/4605/sp1411clip05.jpg[/IMG]

Except that no one is surprised with the result. Tanaka's interview were cringeworthy, and the direction they were taking was very discutable.

While no one can predict the future with certainty, they were taking huge fucking risk for sure.

I also find it funny that Kaylia thinks he could just hire an advisor to make up for his incompetency as if he wouldn't get replaced for being useless. Yeah, just do what you want man, that's how it always works.

Not if you're the one with money. Also, it doesnt mean you have to sit on your ass either. I'm pretty sure I could keep myself busy with the programming team.

And if you don't like the situation, just take this one instead: You're allowed to roam free in SquareEnix studio during the whole development phase. Can you, as an amateur, find out what issues plagued its development?



Look at the network code. Whoever took the decision that every decision should be server checked is fucking retarded. You hammer the server with useless requests, it won't stop RMT and/or cheating, and you will slow the client considerably.

If the game was played locally, then fine, but when you have players all across the world, it makes no freaking sense. I'm not sure if their team was lacking experience or common sense, but I would like to hear their justification.