Obama's get rich quick scheme: Adopting a VAT Tax.

[Marootsoobutsu]

ITT: The poor are poor by choice

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No, ITT: The poor are poor because of choices they have made. It is a very important difference.

Also ITT: often, the poor have made those poor decisions because they have been provided with shoddy education, and have been highly predated upon by those who *have* been highly educated. But I'm not surprised you ignored that part.

[Rhinox]

lol

[Marootsoobutsu]

Although state lotteries, on average, return just 53 cents for every dollar spent on a ticket, people continue to pour money into them -- especially low-income people, who spend a larger percentage of their incomes on lottery tickets than do the wealthier segments of society.

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases...0724102945.htm

The study, sponsored by America’s Promise Alliance and prepared by the Editorial Projects in Education Research Center, also shows a staggering difference between the drop-out rates in major urban school districts and those in adjoining and more affluent suburban districts. Overall, high school graduation rates are 15 percentage points lower in urban schools as compared to those in the suburbs. In twelve cities, the disparities exceed 25 percentage points.

http://www.wsws.org/articles/2008/ap...scho-a03.shtml

The report concluded that getting those workers to sign up could cut the uninsured rate more effectively than the ongoing children's health insurance program or proposals such as President Clinton's plan to allow the near elderly to buy into Medicare.

The Center's survey said of those workers who turned down health insurance, 5 percent remain uninsured and the rest received coverage through another family member, a government program or private purchase. African-Americans and Hispanics were more likely to forgo insurance than whites. Nineteen percent of workers below the poverty line refused insurance.

http://www.aces.edu/dept/extcomm/new.../staypoor.html

I could go on, listing spending habits (the lowest classes are more likely to eat more fast food than middle and upper classes), credit habits (the poor are more likely to be in credit card debt and to use pay day loans than the middle class or upper class), investment habits, etc... but the simple reality is that most of the poor in America are poor because of the decisions they make.

Would most people make these decisions if they were properly aware of the ramifications of them? Almost certainly no. Which is where the problem comes in, because society (especially in its materialistic advertising), and the education system have failed to help people realize what they're doing. Corporations certainly hold cards of influence, but the answer isn't to "cut that influence" (since that is temporary, and simply results in different methods of influence), but better education in ways that actually matter, beginning with the importance of education itself.

The poor do not "choose" to be poor... but the results of their *choices* will dictate that they remain poor. Is that distinction actually lost on you?

[Rhinox]

Sherlock? is that you?

So lottery tickets and drop-out rates and..Health care thats why they are poor? give me a break

Participants, who were recruited at Pittsburgh's Greyhound Bus terminal, were paid $5 for completing the survey and given the opportunity to buy as many as five scratch-off lottery tickets. The experimental group purchased an average of 1.27 lottery tickets, compared with 0.67 tickets bought by the members of the control group.

So they were giving disposable income to people that normally wouldn't have it and they didn't immediately head to the currency exchange and pay off their credit card. this happens in my America?! this study is flawless.

Next you're gonna post a link explaining to me how Poor people don't deposit nickels they find on the floor which was done by a Stanford study.

The study, sponsored by America’s Promise Alliance and prepared by the Editorial Projects in Education Research Center, also shows a staggering difference between the drop-out rates in major urban school districts and those in adjoining and more affluent suburban districts. Overall, high school graduation rates are 15 percentage points lower in urban schools as compared to those in the suburbs. In twelve cities, the disparities exceed 25 percentage points.

People drop out in impoverish neighborhoods where the quality of education is suffering (amongst other factors) in comparison to a richer neighborhood where the quality of education is better? BRILLIANT

The report concluded that getting those workers to sign up could cut the uninsured rate more effectively than the ongoing children's health insurance program or proposals such as President Clinton's plan to allow the near elderly to buy into Medicare.

The Center's survey said of those workers who turned down health insurance, 5 percent remain uninsured and the rest received coverage through another family member, a government program or private purchase. African-Americans and Hispanics were more likely to forgo insurance than whites. Nineteen percent of workers below the poverty line refused insurance.

people are forced to make tough choices so they can have more of their meager wages pay bills and food for their family? IN MY COUNTRY?!

again BRILLIANT!!



should probably head back to your classical liberal circle jerk forum and get better examples

[Rhinox]

BRILLIANT























































BRILLIANT


inb4 a dissertation.

[aurik]

First off, @Archi, do realize that most mortgages aren't a lock in at a certain rate for 30 years, they adjust for the economic conditions. So while you get a jesus-christ-thats-low introductory rate, at some point they need to make money on their investment in you. After all, why would a bank invest 100k+ in a potential flake if they could beat that just by simple market investment strategies?

The reality is: they wouldn't. And they don't.

Not sure what the US rates are at these days as I'm currently in Canada; a 25-year fixed-rate mortgage here is 8% per year or more. Over the past 10 years the TSX is up a grand total of 2%.

This is a strange comment on its surface. Would you care to elaborate?

My understanding is that most middle class Americans have invested (at least partly), in mutual funds via 401Ks, IRAs/Roth IRAs, or other diversified retirement accounts. This is less true of the lower class, but a substantial portion of most middle class net worth, especially those in their 40s-50s, tends to be their retirement portfolios, almost all of which include substantial amounts of stock. And, most economic trends I've seen of the last decade have more people in their 30s and even 20s starting their retirement accounts long before they buy their home, as their faith that social security will be around is pretty much nil.

I wonder what your definition of average middle class is, because in my books, most of them aren't the people with steady white-collar office work with matching 401k contributions for 20+ years and a steadily increasing salary. Average middle class is like $40-45k household income per year. That doesn't leave a lot of room to save or invest after supporting a family and paying off mortgage interest.

[Marootsoobutsu]

Sherlock? is that you?

So lottery tickets and drop-out rates and..Health care thats why they are poor? give me a break



So they were giving disposable income to people that normally wouldn't have it and they didn't immediately head to the currency exchange and pay off their credit card. this happens in my America?! this study is flawless.

Next you're gonna post a link explaining to me how Poor people don't deposit nickels they find on the floor which was done by a Stanford study.



People drop out in impoverish neighborhoods where the quality of education is suffering (amongst other factors) in comparison to a richer neighborhood where the quality of education is better? BRILLIANT



people are forced to make tough choices so they can have more of their meager wages pay bills and food for their family? IN MY COUNTRY?!

again BRILLIANT!!



should probably head back to your classical liberal circle jerk forum and get better examples

Take 10 minutes, go back and read what I actually have been advocating, and then come back and apologize for being a dick when you realize you're actually not disagreeing with me.

[aurik]

also re: "the poor are poor because of bad decisions they have made"

Pretty much everything you cite can also be argued to be a consequence of being poor rather than a cause of it. Causation != correlation, as usual.

[Marootsoobutsu]

First off, @Archi, do realize that most mortgages aren't a lock in at a certain rate for 30 years, they adjust for the economic conditions. So while you get a jesus-christ-thats-low introductory rate, at some point they need to make money on their investment in you. After all, why would a bank invest 100k+ in a potential flake if they could beat that just by simple market investment strategies?

The reality is: they wouldn't. And they don't.

Not sure what the US rates are at these days as I'm currently in Canada; a 25-year fixed-rate mortgage here is 8% per year or more. Over the past 10 years the TSX is up a grand total of 2%.



I wonder what your definition of average middle class is, because in my books, most of them aren't the people with steady white-collar office work with matching 401k contributions for 20+ years and a steadily increasing salary. Average middle class is like $40-45k household income per year. That doesn't leave a lot of room to save or invest after supporting a family and paying off mortgage interest.

ARMs are very, very, very bad. Most people try to avoid them, and while they get popular every few years or so, they eventually fall out of fashion. Fixed rates are astoundingly common, and are below 4% right now in the US.


As for what was directed at me... About 45k is the median household income in the US. I would want to see stats for incomes of people 23+ years old (as I expect 5-7 years of work history and/or a degree would bump that up a fair amount, especially as the youngest folks probably don't account for nearly as much of the mortgage market as the 30+ crowd does), and I would guess that for that crowd, it's closer to 50-55K. Even working with 45k, though, that's still plenty to live decently, invest some (though certainly not as much as the 100K crowd), but most big businesses do offer at least partially matching 401Ks, whether white collar or not (I know that Safeway [a grocery store for folks not familiar] does, or at least did when I worked there... just not until you had a certain number of hours with the company). My mother-in-law works at a call center for Portland General Electric; she has full matching 401k.

I admit, I could be mistaken on how many people take advantage of such opportunities, but I know my household is having no problems contributing, and we make well below 40k/year. Also, I should clarify that I am approaching the issue of "stock owners" from a lifetime perspective, as in... someone in their 20s/early 30s may not be investing in retirement (immortality complex and the like), but by the time folks get to their 40s/50s? In lower income brackets, perhaps (indeed, probably) not... but in the middle class? Absolutely.

[aurik]

Contributing to your 401k while you pay greater interest on your mortgage than your portfolio growth rate is actually negative savings. Looks like the 30y FRM rate in the USA is somewhere between 4-6% APR. DJIA over the last 10 is up like 4% total. Hope you all have been paying down your mortgages rather than growing your portfolios!

edit: Not to mention typical middle-class carry around credit card debt, and pay like 20% apr on that shit.

[pahnphoenix]

i click this thread to see where it's gone, and the first thing i find is some idiot seriously saying that the poor are poor because of decisions they've made. i wish i had made the decision to inherit wealth. my already privileged, overwhelmingly easy relative to the vast majority of people in the world life would have been even easier. alas, i was young and stupid back in the womb.

[Masenko]

To be fair, some people are poor because they're retarded, like people who spend their kids' lunch money on cigarettes. Pointing out a section of a group (poor people) like this and covering all poor people with a blanket statement is a poor argument that should fail on anyone with any critical thinking skills. You'll see arguments like this on Fox "News" a lot.


Edit: I live in Oregon. We have no sales tax here. If I buy something for 99 cents, I like it to be 99 cents. Buying stuff in Washington -really- pisses me off when it's like 1.07 or something. I don't mind sales tax if it's already included in the price, like they do in England. I hate that surprise shit when you get to the register.

[Psion]

To be fair, some people are poor because they're retarded, like people who spend their kids' lunch money on cigarettes. Pointing out a section of a group (poor people) like this and covering all poor people with a blanket statement is a poor argument that should fail on anyone with any critical thinking skills. You'll see arguments like this on Fox "News" a lot.


Edit: I live in Oregon. We have no sales tax here. If I buy something for 99 cents, I like it to be 99 cents. Buying stuff in Washington -really- pisses me off when it's like 1.07 or something. I don't mind sales tax if it's already included in the price, like they do in England. I hate that surprise shit when you get to the register.

That is something I always wished the US would do as well, including the price of tax in listings. ; ; I hate having to calculate in my head the rough amount of what I'm buying actually costs so I don't have to take something out cause I spent too much.

[Cantih]

i click this thread to see where it's gone, and the first thing i find is some idiot seriously saying that the poor are poor because of decisions they've made. i wish i had made the decision to inherit wealth. my already privileged, overwhelmingly easy relative to the vast majority of people in the world life would have been even easier. alas, i was young and stupid back in the womb.

^

I'm poor because
1. My grandfather fucked up his mortgage back in the 50s and lost a house that is now in a multi-million dollar neighborhood.
2. My mother didn't buy a home which she could have afforded with prices/income in the 70s, and is now priced out of the market insted of being paid off.
3. I CAN'T GET A FUCKING JOB BECAUSE IT'S BEEN BACK TO BACK TO BACK RECESSIONS SINCE I HIT SIXTEEN.

The only thing that is my own damn responsibility is 3. Maybe I could become more attractive to employers, but the rest is me paying for other peoples mistakes.

[archibaldcrane]

First off, @Archi, do realize that most mortgages aren't a lock in at a certain rate for 30 years, they adjust for the economic conditions. So while you get a jesus-christ-thats-low introductory rate, at some point they need to make money on their investment in you. After all, why would a bank invest 100k+ in a potential flake if they could beat that just by simple market investment strategies?

The reality is: they wouldn't. And they don't.

Not sure what the US rates are at these days as I'm currently in Canada; a 25-year fixed-rate mortgage here is 8% per year or more.

Wow y'all are getting raped in Canada. I'm looking at 15-year fixed rate 300k mortgages in California with excellent credit and a standard 20% down payment with an interest rate of 3.25% - APR under 3.5%. Monthly payment of $1686 a month ($1128 I think if you do the 30-year fixed.)

www.google.com/comparisonads/mortgages (awesome interface)

But yeah, most people aren't balling out with the lowest mortgage interest rates in history and should be paying off credit cards and mortgages instead of investing in (non-employer-matched) retirement accounts. Money is hella cheap right now though.

[zoobernut]

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/1..._n_773392.html

It always amazes me how bad the wealth gap is and now it just gets exponentially worse.

It really doesn't seem like the wealthy are spending their money the way they should to help support the economy. I thought the point of not taxing the wealthy was so they could spend their money to create jobs and promote businesses.

[Rhinox]

But..But... the mere threat of raising taxes is frightening them from spending.

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[zoobernut]

Maybe instead of a straight tax on the wealthy we should just force them to spend a certain percentage of it every year and if they don't then we tax it.

[aurik]

That's essentially what the estate tax accomplishes, though it's applied a little less frequently than yearly. It essentially acts as a penalty for having unbalanced books when you die--money you never got around to spending is taxed an additional %.

[pahnphoenix]

It really doesn't seem like the wealthy are spending their money the way they should to help support the economy. I thought the point of not taxing the wealthy was so they could spend their money to create jobs and promote businesses.

seriously? is this post sarcastic?