Patch 1.18: Miscellaneous Adjustments (07/14/2011)

[Arximiro]

http://lodestone.finalfantasyxiv.com/pl/topics/detail?id=7f436bcd49a6cdc6e85804d58287206976ecc340

In addition to the improvements announced thus far, patch 1.18, slated for release on Friday, July 22 (JST), will usher in a range of miscellaneous adjustments. Players can look forward to the abolition of the fatigue system, revisions to Raise spells, the removal of anima cost for Return, and more.


Removal of the Fatigue System
Fatigue is the means whereby playing for prolonged periods of time progressively yields less and less skill and experience points, eventually reaching a point where neither can be obtained. Patch 1.18 will see the removal of this system, meaning players will no longer be subjected to a reduction in skill and experience point awards even after long hours of play. In light of this change, accumulated surplus points will also be done away with.


Death Penalty and Raising
The introduction of instanced raids will be accompanied by a wide range of revisions to areas such as the death penalty, Raise spells, and the Return command.

Death Penalty
The penalty for being KO'd, namely the effects of Weakness and Brink of Death, will be revised as follows:

Weakness
Players who are raised will be afflicted with the Weakness status, which has the following negative effects:

25% HP reduction
25% MP reduction


Brink of Death
Players who are KO’d when under the effect of Weakness and are subsequently raised will be subjected to the Brink of Death status, which inflicts the following negative effects:

50% HP reduction
50% MP reduction
50% attack power reduction
50% magic potency reduction
50% defense reduction
50% magic defense reduction


A further penalty will apply to equipment durability for players who revive themselves via the Return command.

Raising
As part of balance adjustments accompanying the introduction of instanced raids, and in order to improve the usability of Return as a mode of transport, Raise and Resurrect will receive changes to their effects, as well as the rank at which they are learned. New Raise spells will also be introduced.

Raise

Learned: Rank 14 (instead of 38 )
Recast Time: 5 min. (instead of 60 sec.)
MP Cost: 101 (instead of 0)


Resurrect

Learned: Rank 14 (instead of 38 )
Recast Time: 5 min. (instead of 60 sec.)
MP Cost: 101 (instead of 0)


Raise II -New-
Restore the breath of life, reviving a KO’d target. Weakness and Brink of Death effects last for 1 minute.

Learned: Conjurer, Rank 38
Cast Time: 10s
Recast Time: 2.5 min.
MP Cost: 186
Exclusive to conjurer.


Rebirth -New-
Restore the breath of life, reviving a KO’d target. Target suffers no Weakness or Brink of Death effects.

Learned: Conjurer, Rank 50
Cast Time: 10s
Recast Time: 30 min.
MP Cost: 231
Exclusive to conjurer.


Return
Alongside the above-mentioned reduction in the rank at which Raise is learned, the following adjustments will be made to Return in order to improve its usability as a mode of transport.

Anima consumption will be reduced to zero.
A recast time of 15 minutes will be imposed.
* The above recast time is not imposed on players who are KO'd.

[Celeras]

Equipment damage from releasing? Good.
Raise revamp to non-retard status? Good.
Return fix/cooldown? Good.

Minor shit really, but can't argue with any of it.

[Arximiro]

The minor shit is usually what I care about the most. In FFXI when they changed the in-game icon of an item I had that was the peak of fucking excitement for me. So glad to see fighting weakened will be an option though for those times when someone dcs or shit happens out of your control. That whole list is completely win!

[Reapz]

Welcome changes for sure, hopefully they add proper animations in for the raise spells instead of the whole load of nothing it is atm

[vadre]

It's probably looking into it too much, but I find it interesting that Conjurer gets three tiers of raise/rebirth and (at least, it appears) Thaumaturge only gets 1.

Perhaps this lends itself to the idea that Conjurer is likely to end up as a white mage in its first job, and thaum something else.

[Alkar]

It's probably looking into it too much, but I find it interesting that Conjurer gets three tiers of raise/rebirth and (at least, it appears) Thaumaturge only gets 1.

Perhaps this lends itself to the idea that Conjurer is likely to end up as a white mage in its first job, and thaum something else.

Yeah I think so too. I guess Conjurer will be White Mage and Thaumaturge will turn out to be Black Mage.

[Jamison]

It's probably looking into it too much, but I find it interesting that Conjurer gets three tiers of raise/rebirth and (at least, it appears) Thaumaturge only gets 1.

Perhaps this lends itself to the idea that Conjurer is likely to end up as a white mage in its first job, and thaum something else.

I was thinking the same thing. I'm also happy that I'll be able to add Raise to my action bar since it is a lower rank now, and in a situation with several deaths, several people should be able to assist in casting the spell.

[Enygma55]

Conj will have a place in parties now that they got Tier Raise/Rebirth. Before, a Tharm was in every way better than conj. Hopefully raids and future NMs require more complex party play than spam atk and spam cure lol.

[sceptre]

Im liking this seems there slowly defining classes to roles now still a long way to go tho.

[Jamison]

Conj will have a place in parties now that they got Tier Raise/Rebirth. Before, a Tharm was in every way better than conj. Hopefully raids and future NMs require more complex party play than spam atk and spam cure lol.

(Trying to be funny here...)

Yes, lets incorporate a strategy into the game that where we expect people to die and need to be raised most efficiently!

[Lordender]

Overall good mini changes, I am gonna die laughing at all the rage if/when conj becomes a whm when everyone only lvled it cause they thought it would be the eventual BLM.

[Nevex]

Raise nerf and equipment durability loss upon death? Are they stupid or what?
Doesn't SE realize that they're just compounding one of the biggest flaws of this game?

[miokomioko]

It all looks fine and dandy except for that bullshit durability hit for returning after death. I already hated that they put equipment durability in this game in the first place.

[Kurokikaze]

All in all very welcomed change.

And I fully expected the durability hit. There really isn't a penalty for death at the moment. It's mostly to keep people from D4ing back since Return has no recast when you're dead.

What they need to do next is make it so you can set your Return point and not have it change when you touch a Aeth. Make Aeth's raise points and everyone always respawn at the one closest to them. That way we can have Return work like WoW's Hearthstone.

[Alkar]

Raise nerf and equipment durability loss upon death? Are they stupid or what?
Doesn't SE realize that they're just compounding one of the biggest flaws of this game?

They aren't stupid, they're listening to feedback.

[miokomioko]

I would much rather have durability loss than exp loss... but I'm not happy about it!

Could there even be any other (realistic) penalty for dying?

[Lordender]

I wouldn't hate the durability system as much if weapons didn't wear down fast as fuck still, melee weapons decay so fucking fast its unreal.

[Shuichi]

I welcome these changes.

Edit: I like the fact that everyone can equip a basic raise to help out in the case of multi-death and then there are higher tier raises which are unique to a specific class.

[TacoTaru]

I wouldn't hate the durability system as much if weapons didn't wear down fast as fuck still, melee weapons decay so fucking fast its unreal.

Is the decay really still that bad? I haven't played in a few months, but I thought about messing around with my friends and trying out the game again to see if I appreciated it anymore than I did before, but decay was what was annoying the most before.

[XalienLevi]

Weapon decay isn't bad anymore if you use a weapon of the proper rank. Weapons used to break down fully within 30 minutes to 1 hour of grinding depending on your class. Now it takes a few days or several hours if you like the game that much.

[Lucavi]

So a raise spell that's usable by anyone, but on a 5 minute cooldown. I suppose that's a fair trade-off. Party wipes, people raise one another one-by-one, and whoever gets rezzed switches to rez and rezzes someone else - unless you still get stuck with that penalty when equipping a new ability that automatically starts the cooldown timer when you equip it, in which case people equipping raise after death is pointless.

I hope they aren't intending for:

A) Everyone who enters a dungeon stocking raise on their character before going in.
B) Parties not being able to revive everyone in a timely fashion after deaths without people eating death-ports.

Both would be a significant step back to the EQ days of old school tedium, especially when you're slapping an artificial time-limit on a dungeon.

[sruon]

I welcome these changes.

Edit: I like the fact that everyone can equip a basic raise to help out in the case of multi-death and then there are higher tier raises which are unique to a specific class.

I was going to post saying Raise recast is way too long, but I didn't realize anyone could equip. Good changes


unless you still get stuck with that penalty when equipping a new ability that automatically starts the cooldown timer when you equip it, in which case people equipping raise after death is pointless.

That's what i'm worried about.

[Arximiro]

I haven't broke a weapons since I came back, if you use a proper rank weapon (which you really should because it matters a lot with weapons both on durability and stats) it takes at least 20+ hours to break a weapon.



Edit: Why wouldn't you keep raise on your bar full-time? There are more than enough spots and points assuming you only keep good abilities on your bar.

[Amastacia]

The minor shit is usually what I care about the most. In FFXI when they changed the in-game icon of an item I had that was the peak of fucking excitement for me. So glad to see fighting weakened will be an option though for those times when someone dcs or shit happens out of your control. That whole list is completely win!

Yeah. FFXI had a bad habit of not really fixing the little shit in a timely fashion, the fact that they're thinking about it while making big changes is somewhat encouraging.


It's probably looking into it too much, but I find it interesting that Conjurer gets three tiers of raise/rebirth and (at least, it appears) Thaumaturge only gets 1.

Perhaps this lends itself to the idea that Conjurer is likely to end up as a white mage in its first job, and thaum something else.

At the very least, the dev team gets that people only level CNJ to buff THM, and are doing something in the short term to give incentive to the one class there's currently zero incentive to play.

Will be curious what the long term plan is (wouldn't be surprised if CNJ split out into both WHM and BLM, while THM became some other magey classes, esp. real DoT classes, which would be fantastic).


It all looks fine and dandy except for that bullshit durability hit for returning after death. I already hated that they put equipment durability in this game in the first place.

Preventing deathwarping abuse. I suspect dying once won't put all your gear into red, broken down state, and if you're wearing of-level equipment it already degrades quite slowly. Given how inexpensive most repairs are, I don't see this as a major hassle, but does give a small incentive to taking a raise over a return.


Is the decay really still that bad? I haven't played in a few months, but I thought about messing around with my friends and trying out the game again to see if I appreciated it anymore than I did before, but decay was what was annoying the most before.

No. If you wear non-optimal gear or are under the optimal rank, it degrades more quickly. If you're of-rank, the rate of decay goes down markedly.

There's little reason to use a weapon you're not of the optimal rank for, and even though certain pieces of gear are either always the best option (Kokoroon's mail, Eternal Shade, etc.) regardless of rank, or become better far too soon (cuirass gear), armor still degrades slowly enough it's not a major concern.


So a raise spell that's usable by anyone, but on a 5 minute cooldown. I suppose that's a fair trade-off. Party wipes, people raise one another one-by-one, and whoever gets rezzed switches to rez and rezzes someone else - unless you still get stuck with that penalty when equipping a new ability that automatically starts the cooldown timer when you equip it, in which case people equipping raise after death is pointless.

I hope they aren't intending for:

A) Everyone who enters a dungeon stocking raise on their character before going in.
B) Parties not being able to revive everyone in a timely fashion after deaths without people eating death-ports.

Both would be a significant step back to the EQ days of old school tedium, especially when you're slapping an artificial time-limit on a dungeon.

I'm sure setting it will cause max recast. It works that way for everything else, it doesn't make sense to have rezzes be an exception.

I expect that A is more what they're thinking. It behooves a player to take DoM/DoW classes to 20, and is not especially time-consuming or onerous to do. Most people doing instanced dungeons will have at least 1 rez ability to set, and especially at rank 50, it's not hard to spare a few AP to set one for emergencies.

Honestly, I'm fine with that.

I don't want FFXIV to be too old-school of an MMO, but death (especially wipes) should have an impact.

First tier weakness looks like it's just a HP/MP penalty going forward, so it won't really slow anyone down in terms of ability to keep killing (just have to be more careful). For random deaths that happen along the way, a CNJ can pop out a higher-tier rez to shorten or remove weakness penalties. For wipes it'll be quicker to get the party back up and moving (only double wipe will be really problematic). Maybe you'll have to wait 3 mins before re-attempting a boss fight if there isn't trash to grind productively in the meantime, but that does provide a little time to stop and think about why the wipe happened and consider alternate strategies.

[Hyan]

Welcome changes for sure, hopefully they add proper animations in for the raise spells instead of the whole load of nothing it is atm

You mean something different from what they're showing in the topic title pic?

[Lordender]

Weapon decay isn't bad anymore if you use a weapon of the proper rank. Weapons used to break down fully within 30 minutes to 1 hour of grinding depending on your class. Now it takes a few days or several hours if you like the game that much.


Its still too fucking fast for melee weapons, I never wear gear/weapons that isn't optimal rank. Armor takes forever to go down but melee weps is another story.

[Kaylia]

Until the combat change, having a penalty to durability is retarded. Dying was already more frustrating than it is in most mmo, and it's not going to improve the situation.

[Meko]

So a raise spell that's usable by anyone, but on a 5 minute cooldown. I suppose that's a fair trade-off. Party wipes, people raise one another one-by-one, and whoever gets rezzed switches to rez and rezzes someone else - unless you still get stuck with that penalty when equipping a new ability that automatically starts the cooldown timer when you equip it, in which case people equipping raise after death is pointless.

I hope they aren't intending for:

A) Everyone who enters a dungeon stocking raise on their character before going in.
B) Parties not being able to revive everyone in a timely fashion after deaths without people eating death-ports.

Both would be a significant step back to the EQ days of old school tedium, especially when you're slapping an artificial time-limit on a dungeon.

Time limits are fun.

[Shuichi]

I haven't leveled any mages yet to get these spells, but, it appears that a L50 CON can potentially have 4 different raise spells equipped. Provided that there are enough members in the rest of the party with at least a basic raise equipped getting up from a wipe shouldn't take long at all. Maybe'll they'll introduce raise-ga later. Do the Raise and Resurrect spells share the same cool down?

[XalienLevi]

Is there really so much resistance to time limits? For instance in Aion you were rewarded with a more difficult end boss with higher drop rates if you completed Dark Poeta in a certain amount of time. Perfecting a Salvage run with time to spare was a reward in itself. Who's to say these dungeons will be any different?

Also, stop dying so much.

[Kaeko]

I wouldn't hate the durability system as much if weapons didn't wear down fast as fuck still, melee weapons decay so fucking fast its unreal.

I can't give you actual percentages, but I can tell you I only repair melee weapons once every 3-4 days leveling at a pace of maybe 100k a night right now. This is as long as the weapon is at or below your current rank. If you are too low for the weapon, it goes from 100% to 'yellow' in a matter of 2-3 hours max.

[XalienLevi]

Does SE have something against item rez's? What happened to Phoenix Downs? Oooh CON has multiple raise spells now how unique and class defining.
Make phoenix down an alchemy craft and call it a day.

[Meko]

Is there really so much resistance to time limits? For instance in Aion you were rewarded with a more difficult end boss with higher drop rates if you completed Dark Poeta in a certain amount of time. Perfecting a Salvage run with time to spare was a reward in itself. Who's to say these dungeons will be any different?

Also, stop dying so much.

It will depend on if the time is extendable or not coupled with the idea of lockouts and resets versus availability. Also, if you have a 5 min cool down on the spell and you lose more than 1 person per fight, a 1 hr time limit might be super limiting which I feel is a bit crappy. It's just my opinion, though.

[XalienLevi]

It will depend on if the time is extendable or not coupled with the idea of lockouts and resets versus availability. Also, if you have a 5 min cool down on the spell and you lose more than 1 person per fight, a 1 hr time limit might be super limiting which I feel is a bit crappy. It's just my opinion, though.

I definitely see your point. According to the video of the new dungeon, part of the fun is avoiding that floating eye that does 8000+ aoe dmg. Yet we don't have a self raise, aoe raise or raise items to avoid completely wasting a dungeon cooldown. Am I asking for too much here?

[Arximiro]

Is there really so much resistance to time limits? For instance in Aion you were rewarded with a more difficult end boss with higher drop rates if you completed Dark Poeta in a certain amount of time. Perfecting a Salvage run with time to spare was a reward in itself. Who's to say these dungeons will be any different?

Also, stop dying so much.


Salvage is a great example of a time limit that was well implemented. Good groups could get more objectives done in the allotted time while others could only get at least a few done. Clearing a SSR doing HB, Dekka, Gyro II, CC, and the Boss and having 10 mins left was indeed a great feeling. If there is that sort of thing in the dungeons it will be nice. From the way Yoshi is updating Leves maybe this will be the case.

[Fiddle Sticks]

Hmm maybe I'm just nuts, but 5min recast seems a little too high. I mean I understand everyone can equip, but I just think its silly that to be safe, everyone in the PT will need to equip raise before entering a dungeon or risk waiting 20-30 min to get the whole PT up.

Other than the recast times, these are all great changes! Finally get rid of death warps, finally give us a good return without burning anima, finally make it so deaths have an impact, and have the option to fight when weakened if you have to.

They just need to change the way you set your Home Point, it should be an option, and not do it simply by touching the aetheryte. (sp)

Edit: How did my sig. go back in time??

[Alderaan]

5 min recasts on a rez is fine as long as it's only for in combat. Out of combat shouldn't have any recasts.

Also i agree with eliminating instance time limits and instead putting small rage timers on the actual bosses. I'd rather not have all the time in the world to kill a boss.

[Corrderio]

Kind of surprised Conjurer is turning into the White Mage, since due to their quests it seemed like a no brainer they would become Black Mages.

[blythe]

At the very least, the dev team gets that people only level CNJ to buff THM, and are doing something in the short term to give incentive to the one class there's currently zero incentive to play.

Will be curious what the long term plan is (wouldn't be surprised if CNJ split out into both WHM and BLM, while THM became some other magey classes, esp. real DoT classes, which would be fantastic).
We know that (at first), each class is only getting 1 job, and that BLM and WHM will be part of the original selection.

So one of CON or THM will become WHM, and the other BLM. Even though splitting CON into WHM and BLM makes more sense it won't happen.

Realllly hoping CON gets WHM... only real reason I'm leveling it...

[Hyan]

I definitely see your point. According to the video of the new dungeon, part of the fun is avoiding that floating eye that does 8000+ aoe dmg. Yet we don't have a self raise, aoe raise or raise items to avoid completely wasting a dungeon cooldown. Am I asking for too much here?

Yoshida was talking about phoenix downs a while ago.


rez

Sometimes I take the auto-translate function for granted, but not having to see words like this makes it so great.

[Cichy]

Offcourse on Lodestone there's a bunch of cunts whinning raise is too low now...

[Fiddle Sticks]

Offcourse on Lodestone there's a bunch of cunts whinning raise is too low now...

What the fuck is wrong with all those idiots? Hell most other mmo you get a raise type of spell at 10. There is no reason for it to be any higher, 38 was just plain stupid. However, I think the recast is still too high.


5 min recasts on a rez is fine as long as it's only for in combat. Out of combat shouldn't have any recasts.


What are you saying here? Do you think this is the way it should work, or you think this is the way it will work?

I didn't realize there was a difference with any spells recast times being in or out of combat.

[Spider-Dan]

Keep in mind that if you equip an ability to your bar while weakened, the recast is (was?) doubled. So yes, everyone will need to have Raise or Rez on their bar upon entering a dungeon.

It doesn't seem to say in the article what the duration of Weakness will be. I presume that means it's staying at 3min? How will Raise2 affect the useless Onion Helm? etc.

[Alderaan]

I'm saying that's how i personally think it should be. If you're in combat, anything shorter than 5min and you trivialize the content when everyone can just get insta-raised. If you're just recovering from a wipe and not fighting anything, the recast times are just an annoyance, especially with a time limit.

[solracht]

There might be aetherytes at the start of the dungeons (or even further in, acting as checkpoints of some sort). If that's the case I imagine the resurrection spells will be used for recovery mid-combat.

[Grey Jorildyn]

Just echoing a few posters here but...

As someone who has nearly all classes to 50, there are plenty of action points available to have at least raise or resurrect on your bar at all times. There's no reason not to have a small spell library equipped. On my melee classes I keep resurrect equipped and on my mages I have both in my support setups. For all classes I keep cure and sac III on too because you never know when you'll be out of range of a mage aoe because of stupid terrain bullshit.

Also I am somewhat disappointed THM (their quests are about life and death) did not get a self-raise. I'd be fine with CNJ getting one too I suppose. I am well aware this is the a precursor to their supposed mass class overhauls, but I'm afraid they're disconnecting from the lore a bit. Someone mentioned the CNJ quest line earlier and they make a good point about what they said concerning what those cutscenes lead us to believe about the class. I'd like them to be bit more cautious about losing track in those things as story is important to the FF series.

[Gulkeeva]

What the fuck is wrong with all those idiots? Hell most other mmo you get a raise type of spell at 10. There is no reason for it to be any higher, 38 was just plain stupid. However, I think the recast is still too high.

haha yeah, wow even made it possible now, for a lv1 to res (for no mp cost, or a recast timer even! for the caster anyway, 10min wait for those that were ressed by the spell).

Randomly, I kind of wished they'd have done something with the surplus many of the past players have built up over the many months (especially the crafting surplus, oh god that stuff is brutal)... so many millions of exp in surplus ;/

[Grey Jorildyn]

Oh I also meant to post that I really think they should've added a tractor-res (ie. Like loci res in Aion) too. There were so many times in XI when people died in a swarm of mobs and you couldn't res them until you claimed the mobs or you had to do a combat res. I think an instant res would add variety too. Lotsa things SE can do without using long recast timers for no good reason. Also remember that that 5min recast timer will be longer cross-class.

[Kaylia]

I'm saying that's how i personally think it should be. If you're in combat, anything shorter than 5min and you trivialize the content when everyone can just get insta-raised. If you're just recovering from a wipe and not fighting anything, the recast times are just an annoyance, especially with a time limit.
In-combat and out of combat raise should definitively follow different rules. There is no reason to make people wait forever when they are out of combat,.

Even in instance like salvage back in the day, wasting 7-10min to recuperate after a wipe/semi-wipe wasn't really fun. I imagine it would be the same here.


[edit]
I hope you wont be weakened anymore if you go back to your homepoint. That shit is so annoying when you do guildleve solo and dies to some random bullshit (shitty monsters placement, high level aggro, one shot ability on a otherwise easy leves)

[Alderaan]

I completely forgot that FF didn't have location rez, since every MMO i've played since had one. It's just too handy.

[Amastacia]

Offcourse on Lodestone there's a bunch of cunts whinning raise is too low now...

Yeah, there are way too many people who want the game to be hard for all the wrong reasons, and in all the wrong ways.

Herp derp.

[Alkar]

Conjurer at 50 gets 4 different raises. Bring 2 CON and that's enough to cover the whole group in a raid.
It's also possible that when you equip White Mage in the future these recasts will go down so I'd try this out for now.

[Kenshiin]

The recast timers feel like they are way to long for everything they posted. Yes, they are forcing us to play CON but they suck compared to what THMs can do.

[Shuichi]

Offcourse on Lodestone there's a bunch of cunts whinning raise is too low now...

I'm skimming through that exact thread right now. Just....good grief.

[XalienLevi]

The recast timers feel like they are way to long for everything they posted. Yes, they are forcing us to play CON but they suck compared to what THMs can do.

because nothing about the classes are changing after 1.18.

[Cichy]

Yeah, there are way too many people who want the game to be hard for all the wrong reasons, and in all the wrong ways.

Herp derp.

Exactly, I understand making content challenging but not every small little detail needs to be pain in the ass. I guess that's why those people want Tanaka back...

[XalienLevi]

According to the NA Lodestone, adding Triple Triad will make the game more fun.

[Niiro]

I'm fine with everything but the durability penalty for HPing.

It's basically punishing you for their shitty mob placement and discourages you from trying to test your limits on harder mobs.

[Corrderio]

I'm a bit curious about the durability thing to. Since didn't Yoshida say he was going to look into removing it after the Materia system is in the game?

[Lucavi]

Oh I also meant to post that I really think they should've added a tractor-res (ie. Like loci res in Aion) too. There were so many times in XI when people died in a swarm of mobs and you couldn't res them until you claimed the mobs or you had to do a combat res. I think an instant res would add variety too. Lotsa things SE can do without using long recast timers for no good reason. Also remember that that 5min recast timer will be longer cross-class.

Or just have your developers stop being stupid and have the raise spell insta-tractor the corpse to the caster of the spell, like in every other mmo that came out since XI. Its like people have never played another MMO in their lives.

For those talking about in-combat and out-of-combat raises, they're called raises and battle raises (or rezzes). Most healers in other MMOs have at least one or the other, or in some cases, both. Out of combat raises typically never have a recast, as the battle is already over, so there's nothing wrong with getting the team right up to try again. Battle rezzes are typically on a 5-10 minute cooldown, and if the game has talents, the cooldown can typically be talented down for faster rezzes.

All XIV is doing is showing its age with some of these backwater decisions. I'm fine with slapping a cooldown on any B-rez, as not having one would completely break any game, especially one as simplistic as XI/XIV (tank, spank, don't get killed by big AOE), but having a massive cooldown on an out-of-combat raise is absolutely silly, especially when you're talking dungeons with time limits. Its just another way to artificially create "difficulty" and "challenge", instead of actually making the encounters extremely difficult.

When programmers become afraid to kill players because of massive recasts on raises and long weakness penalties, combat becomes stale and uninspiring, because there's only so many ways you can "challenge" a player without, you know, actually making the fights more difficult. A game that isn't afraid to kill the player, knowing that the player and his team can reset and begin the fight again within a few short minutes, can design truly terrifying content and encounters, because, while the player does get a break (in death) to refresh one's mind and refocus on what needs to be done, its not so long that they'll eventually hit a period where they no longer have time to successfully complete the fight, so they give up for the night.

[fussel]

And I fully expected the durability hit. There really isn't a penalty for death at the moment. It's mostly to keep people from D4ing back since Return has no recast when you're dead.


D4? Did I miss a memo?

/edit: Seriously, I know D2 from FF11 days, but where does D4 come from?

Another thing about item durability: I hate it, because it's annoying. But I would like it, if they'd add permanent item damage on non-unique items, i.e. maximum durability goes down 1% each time the item is repaired. This would make 2nd hand stuff less valuable than freshly crafted stuff. This worked out pretty well in Neocron, where it wasn't even limited to common stuff, but also hit your rare weapons.

[Fiddle Sticks]

For those talking about in-combat and out-of-combat raises, they're called raises and battle raises (or rezzes). Most healers in other MMOs have at least one or the other, or in some cases, both. Out of combat raises typically never have a recast, as the battle is already over, so there's nothing wrong with getting the team right up to try again. Battle rezzes are typically on a 5-10 minute cooldown, and if the game has talents, the cooldown can typically be talented down for faster rezzes.

Lol You're acting like that is a standard for all games or something. I think I have played about every MMO out there, and spent a lot of time with each one (besides RIFT, only played for like 3 days) I only know of the "Battle Rez" from WoW, and just because they have it, does not mean it should be a standard. I'm not saying it is not a good idea, but FFXIV can easily do without the need of a "Battle Rez" with just lowering the cool down timer on raise.

[Lucavi]

WoW has them, Rift has them, AoC has them. Pretty sure Warhammer had a brez as well. You know of any other MMOs that captured over a million subs? I'd say that when the biggest modern MMOs have a feature, its considered standard.

[XalienLevi]

I think you're reading into Lucavi's post too much. I understand the problems with having raises on low or non-existent CDs (Aion's Stormwing battle being a pretty damn good example) but if the battle is over there should be a faster way for a group to recover and continue onto whatever they are doing. If SE thinks we should all sacrifice 2 points for Raise I then that's that I guess.

However, when you're trying to get a shit ton of people to play your game. It kind of makes sense to bring in SOME ideas from other popular games. Whether you like it or not.

[Grey Jorildyn]

Does every car on the market have a steering wheel and tires?

Differentiating between battle res and out of combat res is a standard in the mmo industry. I am not campaigning that they should have it, but people are making good points in that locking FFXIV into a game of cast and recast timers isn't the best way to bring variety to the combat system (because let's face--raising is directly tied to the combat system).

[Lucavi]

Its only 2 points, so your point is valid, Xalien. Still, essentially requiring people to have a healing job leveled simply to run an instance (because you know that its going to happen; even if SE's intentions weren't to "police" the populace, the populace itself is going to make it mandatory in order to save time) isn't a very smart or player-friendly solution.

@GJ: Its cool man. When the combat and level of "difficulty" of fights once again suffers due to it taking so long to restart a boss fight or tough trash encounter, the same arguments that are made against XI's difficulty compared to the rest of the market will once again ring true. We'll be back to square one; comparing the difficulty of Fafnir to Sindragosa, haha. Plus, what's more thrilling than someone popping a clutch brez on a healer or tank to save a potentially wiping fight? I figured XIV players would want to have more ways to stay alive or get back into the fray, considering they can't hide behind shadows again and actually have to take hits in this game. But I'm sure we'll just measure the difficulty of a fight not based on movement, strategy, positioning or anything, instead judge it based on how hard the mob hits the party members.

[Grey Jorildyn]

I agree and disagree. On the one hand, not everyone wants to play a healing class. On the other hand, tier I raises will be Level 14 and they made getting to 20 a total joke (plus you're not really going to be partying as a healer at that stage of the game anyway--this is a whole 'nother problem altogether though). This is a game where your whole purpose in life is to diversify your skill-based portfolio, as it were. Perhaps I'm biased because I will have access to all this shit day 0 but still, it's not like it will take an epic journey to obtain at least a basic res spell now.

Who doesn't have Cure II and/or Sacrifice II by now? If you don't, then you're probably not playing FFXIV.

[XalienLevi]

That's another issue I have with this set up. Personally, and I'm sure everyone else here knows you can get to Rank 14 now in about 30 minutes. We also know that the original idea of this class system was to potentially become "stronger" by leveling multiple classes. New people won't know that and some just don't want to play any kind of mage class. Where are the options for these players? How long does it take to draw a feather icon, name it Phoenix Down, create a recipe for it and put it in the game? It can even have a cooldown!

[Lucavi]

Its not that it takes a long time, its that you're making healing/raising a prerequisite in a game that really wasn't built for it. SE is now trying to do the same thing that Guild Wars II is doing, although they already sound like they're doing it far better. Everyone has a heal in GW2, and everyone has the ability to pick up fallen teammates mid-combat and continue the fight. It once again makes XIV's system feel clunky and outdated in comparison. You have to level the corresponding jobs (not bad, but if you're intending for everyone to have it, why not just offer it when they level up, period?), set the corresponding ability, then deal with with the long recast - outside of combat, once the battle has already been decided.

@Xalien: That'd be GW2's raise, which sounds a lot like running to a friendly and reviving them in Gears of War, honestly. SE could do something similar and simply give players who are still alive the ability to raise a fallen ally with a "phoenix down" "item" that is infinite, but on a cooldown, and can be used mid-battle. Give it standard to players and start designing actual challenging encounters where death is something to be expected, and revolve the strategy around outlasting and eventually overpowering the enemy instead of "KILL IT OR WIPE IT UP, WAIT 10 MINUTES FOR EVERYONE TO BE REZZED/UNWEAK, THEN WE TRY AGAIN!!" You're looking at a far more dynamic combat system, which already sounds like something that people are wanting, considering how many people are flat-out upset about the current combat system.

[XalienLevi]

Well see Guild Wars 2 is replacing the need to level up a crap ton of different classes and just giving us a ton of content to work with instead on the first day. So maybe it's not very fair to compare the two :P

[Lucavi]

Its not even a slam on XIV, its just showing how outdated the mechanics are. There's already a game out there that successfully incorporates old-style mechanics, and its called XI. Its doing pretty damned well, to boot. Clearly XIV has shown us that there isn't room for two, so why try to cut out of your own market by making such old-school decisions? DCing and getting ported outside of the dungeon? Come on, man.

[XalienLevi]

Its the purists man. They're gonna take us all down with 'em!

[Vuitton]

Yoshida said he has been playing DAoC for 6 years. What's that game like? Is it purist old mechanics?

[Alderaan]

It's widely regarded as the best PVP MMO. Yes it'd oldschool but what it had that every MMO since has been missing is 3 factions.

[Ropeydonkey]

This just comes back to the whole 'death penalty' issue. Knowing death will mean waiting on recasts or whatever is just another good reason to fear death. If death has no xp penalty, no tangible durability/cost penalty, no trek back to a location because everyone in the game has raise or whatever on tap, nobody will give a shit about dying. Personally, I liked fearing death in XI be it due to xp loss, losing time or just general inconvenience. These look about right to me, if not too lenient on players, but that's just me though I guess...

[Arximiro]

He wants to promote skillful play. Dying too much? Fucking suck less. With 8 people that have raise and probably a lot of people that have both versions equipped it will be more than enough. When did you become such a prissy whiny bitch Lucavi? You were fucking cool in beta? If you don't want to deal with purist old-school mechanics go play an easy-mode game and stfu already. Some of us enjoy old-school mechanics, in the same fucking fashion as some of us enjoy playing older games. Just because you love your western herpa fucking dooerp MMOs doesn't mean that everyone does.

Christ on a God Damn bike

[Lucavi]

Yoshida said he has been playing DAoC for 6 years. What's that game like? Is it purist old mechanics?

PVP out the wazoo with 3 factions and a lot of greifers, but a great game, especially for its time.

@Ropey: You say "who cares about dying" if there's no death penalty. I say "who cares about fighting the fight", save for the drops? I mean, honestly, those NMs that were released. Who cares about them? They had shitty drops and the fights were meh, so who cares about them? You're going to put a death penalty in (nobody cares about a weakness death penalty - its in rift, and barely slows anything down; port back to town, pay to get it off; keep fighting), and keep these same terrible fights that boil down to "you tank this guy and everyone else DPS and stand back when the big bad mob "readies" XXX aoe for 8k"? Go for it. We'll see how many subs this "Return to Vana'diel!" system brings in.

@Arx: Skillful play? Old-school mechanics? Okay, the game is just for you, then. You should be happy about its state, then, because its doing an excellent job of those good ol-fashioned old-school mechanics. You make it sound like the game has a million "new school" mechanics, and that's why it failed so hard. And you're equating "new school" somehow to "western", which is all kinds of wrong. TERA has plenty of "new school" mechanics (unlocked combat probably being the "newest") and its far from a Blizzard title. But okay, that's cool. Its also a shame that there weren't enough "some of you"'s to keep the game non-free-to-play. I bet SE wishes it had captured a lot more of the "some of us" market.

[Lordender]

He wants to promote skillful play. Dying too much? Fucking suck less. With 8 people that have raise and probably a lot of people that have both versions equipped it will be more than enough. When did you become such a prissy whiny bitch Lucavi? You were fucking cool in beta? If you don't want to deal with purist old-school mechanics go play an easy-mode game and stfu already. Some of us enjoy old-school mechanics, in the same fucking fashion as some of us enjoy playing older games. Just because you love your western herpa fucking dooerp MMOs doesn't mean that everyone does.

Christ on a God Damn bike

LOL.

10/10, almost as good as the NFL CBA "negotiations"

[miokomioko]

There definitely has to be a penalty for death... It's just that they moved it from a progress penalty (exp) to a monetary penalty (repairs). The former created a solid "fear" of death but it also made it extremely frustrating when someone else got you killed. I can't count the number of times I was done playing XI for the day because some moron pickup group reversed my progress on a job or killed my buffer. The latter is not really going to instill fear... it's just going to be a minor nuisance for high-rank (rich) players and a slightly larger nuisance for casual (broke) players.

However, I don't have any other ideas of how to instill a death penalty outside of ridiculous body-looting shit... How do other MMORPGs do it?

[Alderaan]

Death penalties are almost nonexistent in new themepark MMO's. They only exist in sandboxes. While i'm in favor of the bringing the fear of dying back, i don't think a death penalty is the way to go. I honestly don't think most devs have any idea how to implement one that isn't annoying as fuck, which is why the concept is being phased out.

[Arximiro]

It's just every thread with this whiny bullshit, give it a rest already. You guys have made it where you can't even say anything good about the game, its developers, its progress, or anything related to it without you fucks coming in and douching up the place. As far as skillful play I was talking in regards to the recast. People will hopefully try a little harder to not be piece of shit players who die constantly now since it could actually affect progress. I know why the game failed early on, we all do. There was no content and no point to progress. Not to mention the vast array of bugs due to at least a year early release.

The game failing has nothing to do with my personal view on MMOs and what I like in them. I totally understand the need to add new things to games as time progresses, but do you have to bash every single thing that is from the older generation? There are quite a lot of people out there who like old-school mmo style and are happy to see that style applied in a new world and game they can explore.

[Alderaan]

If stating opinions and wanting the game to succeed by bringing it up to current standards is douching it up, then guilty.

I'm more concerned as to why more people aren't as irate as i am that SE dicked around for 5 years and all we got was Leves.

[Anthonystar]

Looking at both sides of the issue, I can understand wanting skillful play. However making people fearful of dying creates an environment that punishes a player from learning trying content. Also creating time limits on the player does the same. With a group having difficulty on content, they need time to learn it. Making them only able to attempt the content and then having to restart or wait a real life day ( what ever the timer ends up being) can be extremely discouraging. The recast timer makes the time they are allowed in the content shorter and more frustrating.

If they are planing to make XIV more casual this is defiantly the wrong direction. This type of gameplay only caters to the old school / hardcore and it limits your market, which is what they have said they want to expand. If they want players to be skillful, give them incentive to play better without restricting new / casual players. This can be done by giving players more rewards for defeating the instance faster or creating "hard modes" that challenge the skill of the players. If people want a challenge make it an option and increase the rewards for the greater challenge.

[Lordender]

It's just every thread with this whiny bullshit, give it a rest already. You guys have made it where you can't even say anything good about the game, its developers, its progress, or anything related to it without you fucks coming in and douching up the place. As far as skillful play I was talking in regards to the recast. People will hopefully try a little harder to not be piece of shit players who die constantly now since it could actually affect progress. I know why the game failed early on, we all do. There was no content and no point to progress. Not to mention the vast array of bugs due to at least a year early release.

The game failing has nothing to do with my personal view on MMOs and what I like in them. I totally understand the need to add new things to games as time progresses, but do you have to bash every single thing that is from the older generation? There are quite a lot of people out there who like old-school mmo style and are happy to see that style applied in a new world and game they can explore.


Are you fucking serious? This is the most whiny post i've seen since the Salvage bans. The game failed because they chose to ignore all the feedback they were given back in alpha. They could have released the game with 2-3 big time NM's done thru faction leve's that rewarded a bunch of diff gear, that would have been sufficient enough while they improved the game.

The game fucking sucks, its an abomination, deal with it like everyone else has, it will take another year or so before they fix it. I believe it will become a solid game eventually.

[Cichy]

There's always Lodestone and FFXIV core if you want a place to praise SE and high five each other.

[Kurokikaze]

D4? Did I miss a memo?

/edit: Seriously, I know D2 from FF11 days, but where does D4 come from?

Another thing about item durability: I hate it, because it's annoying. But I would like it, if they'd add permanent item damage on non-unique items, i.e. maximum durability goes down 1% each time the item is repaired. This would make 2nd hand stuff less valuable than freshly crafted stuff. This worked out pretty well in Neocron, where it wasn't even limited to common stuff, but also hit your rare weapons.

Thats what we used to call death warping. D4ing. Not sure if this was a general term but it was pretty common on Midgard.

[Kuroikage]

We called it D3 on Bismarck, same concept though.

[Corrderio]

I thought D3 was escape. All I remember is the JPs coined the D- term if memory serves me correctly.

[Kuroikage]

We just said escape... there was no shorthand term for it on our server.

[miokomioko]

I believe the original Japanese names of the Warp spells were some form of "dezone.". Hence the D.

The thing about this way of restricting death warping/bloodporting/d4, or whatever you want to call it, isn't going to keep anyone from carrying around a shitty rank-1 weapon or tool, stripping naked and throwing a rock at the nearest Dodo to avoid durability hits on their good stuff when their 15min cool down on Return isn't up. I know I already kill myself less than 5min apart constantly from delivering Local Leve items to camps scattered on opposite ends of a map each reset.

[Niiro]

I know I already kill myself less than 5min apart constantly from delivering Local Leve items to camps scattered on opposite ends of a map each reset.
Seriously, fuck that shit. No point to it at all.

"Local" leve my ass.

[Lucavi]

Looking at both sides of the issue, I can understand wanting skillful play. However making people fearful of dying creates an environment that punishes a player from learning trying content. Also creating time limits on the player does the same. With a group having difficulty on content, they need time to learn it. Making them only able to attempt the content and then having to restart or wait a real life day ( what ever the timer ends up being) can be extremely discouraging. The recast timer makes the time they are allowed in the content shorter and more frustrating.

If they are planing to make XIV more casual this is defiantly the wrong direction. This type of gameplay only caters to the old school / hardcore and it limits your market, which is what they have said they want to expand. If they want players to be skillful, give them incentive to play better without restricting new / casual players. This can be done by giving players more rewards for defeating the instance faster or creating "hard modes" that challenge the skill of the players. If people want a challenge make it an option and increase the rewards for the greater challenge.

I cannot say it any better than this. Thank you; you've captured my point entirely. The more of a penalty for death, the harder it is to design seriously challenging content because as soon as people die, chances are that its over, and when you throw in old-school concepts like weekly lock-out timers (which aren't in themselves bad, but are TERRIBLE when the content is on a freakin' timer), you have a hot mess. People tolerated it back then because they didn't know any better. That's all there was. At the time, it was "new-school". When people can try it again and again, you can make that encounter hard as fuck (try the original ICC hard modes - thrilling, yet goddammit when they first came out), because you know they can always try again until the players themselves burn out for the day/week. Plus, you can always tweak it later to make it easier or even harder. That's new-school and if you don't really like that style, then I don't know what to tell you.

Times have changed, though, and if SE does not get with the times, they cannot be surprised when they fail. Just as those who created Duke Nukem Forever cannot be surprised that the game essentially flopped outside of initial hype, just like with XIV.

[Celeras]

According to the NA Lodestone, adding Triple Triad will make the game more fun.

It wouldn't? Pretty poor example there.

[miokomioko]

I never understood why they wouldn't implement either of their beloved in-game CCGs in either of their MMORPGs.

[Kaylia]

I never understood why they wouldn't implement either of their beloved in-game CCGs in either of their MMORPGs.
Because they seem unable to design adaptative UI that could support such thing. Implementing something similar shouldnt be hard from a technical standpoint.

It's a shame though, because cards games would be a great way to kill time, and gathering the cards itself could lead to interesting reward in normal contents (rare card packs that have a chance to drop good cards could drop in various place ...etc)

[Niiro]

But remember we have Parley!

you know what, better to forget it

[Grey Jorildyn]

That's too much continuity. It would be vastly awesome to have it in-game. I remember this coming up in the old days of XI... It would have brought some really sweet content to the game. Not just playing it (like during those lame 27m at camps devoid of anything interesting), but also the means to obtain the cards and the variety of things they could have done with it. For example having special rules in different regions of the game for that authentic feel of culture in another part of the world.

So much untapped potential.

[Thiefami]

That's too much continuity. It would be vastly awesome to have it in-game. I remember this coming up in the old days of XI... It would have brought some really sweet content to the game. Not just playing it (like during those lame 27m at camps devoid of anything interesting), but also the means to obtain the cards and the variety of things they could have done with it. For example having special rules in different regions of the game for that authentic feel of culture in another part of the world.

So much untapped potential.

So true. You could have a monster capturing method to gather cards from normal mobs, and NMs, also NPCs. That alone is casual, fun content. You should be able to lose them like in ff8 so you can regurgitate the gathering aspect

[Sephiroth]

Overall good mini changes, I am gonna die laughing at all the rage if/when conj becomes a whm when everyone only lvled it cause they thought it would be the eventual BLM.

I've already gotten over the fact either CON or THM will become WHM with no alternative class (I've both at 50). I've no intention of ever playing WHM so I will be selling all CON gear when I log back in. Not that it's much different to my THM gear.

SE really should have started CON with two jobs, WHM and BLM and then given THM two other jobs. It's not like we have a ton of mages in this game.

[Meko]

I cannot say it any better than this. Thank you; you've captured my point entirely. The more of a penalty for death, the harder it is to design seriously challenging content because as soon as people die, chances are that its over, and when you throw in old-school concepts like weekly lock-out timers (which aren't in themselves bad, but are TERRIBLE when the content is on a freakin' timer), you have a hot mess. People tolerated it back then because they didn't know any better. That's all there was. At the time, it was "new-school". When people can try it again and again, you can make that encounter hard as fuck (try the original ICC hard modes - thrilling, yet goddammit when they first came out), because you know they can always try again until the players themselves burn out for the day/week. Plus, you can always tweak it later to make it easier or even harder. That's new-school and if you don't really like that style, then I don't know what to tell you.

Quit being a baby about it, seriously. Lock out timers and timed instances is the NEW school. Going back to things that were implemented 5 years ago is the NEW way to make things fun/interesting. At some point, everybody will understand (myself included) that this game is not going to be good and sadly, it'll likely end up getting shut down. These are opinions and the first few lines were completely sarcastic as well.

[fussel]

Thats what we used to call death warping. D4ing. Not sure if this was a general term but it was pretty common on Midgard.

I suspected that, because of the Dezone/Warp II/D2 thing, but it didn't make sense to me, because there's no Warp III. kk

/edit: I also asked myself if new age ffxi introduced Warp III

[Elcura]

I thought D3 was escape. All I remember is the JPs coined the D- term if memory serves me correctly.

That's interesting, our server called it D2, at least they did by the time I left.

[Kurokikaze]

It wouldn't? Pretty poor example there.

Yeah seriously, I would definitely log in more just to use Eorzea as a game lobby for Triple Triad right now.

[Dooom]

I suspected that, because of the Dezone/Warp II/D2 thing, but it didn't make sense to me, because there's no Warp III. kk

/edit: I also asked myself if new age ffxi introduced Warp III

Retrace sometimes gets called D-something. What that something is seems to vary between servers.

[Lucavi]

Dejon, but yeah, you'll hear everything from D2 to deathwarp to bloodport.

[Dooom]

I was meaning D-#, as in D3 or D4.

[Lucavi]

D0 for Doom?

[Niiro]

I think D0 should mean LM-17.

[Kaylia]

I think D0 should mean LM-17.
Warp you out of the game.