Debt Ceiling Round 2: Fight!

[Apelila]

So it looks like we're potentially going to be dealing with this shit again.

For what it is and how it's different than the Fiscal Cliff: Wikipedia entry. Be careful of some of the information in there, the graphs for some things are misleading (My favorite shows that congress has been democrat controlled since 2010).

So we're about to hit the hard limit again, coming up in March. What's being proposed?

A 5 Trillion dollar coin, and a bill to make such a thing impossible despite the President has said that minting such a coin isn't an option. Also that he will not have a power struggle with congress over such shenanigans again.

President Obama recognized this and said something worth noting after the tax bill was passed: "While I will negotiate over many things, I will not have another debate with this Congress over whether or not they should pay the bills that they've already racked up through the laws that they passed."

This is something that players on the right are recognizing as well.

"They’ve got to find, in the House, a totally new strategy,” he said on MSNBC’s “Morning Joe.” “Everybody’s now talking about, ‘Oh, here comes the debt ceiling.’ I think that’s, frankly, a dead loser. Because in the end, you know it’s gonna happen. The whole national financial system is going to come in to Washington and on television, and say: ‘Oh my God, this will be a gigantic heart attack, the entire economy of the world will collapse. You guys will be held responsible.’ And they’ll cave."

Of course, the GOP is blaming the President on spending, and the President is saying, paraphrased: "you made the budget, not me".

And finally: A nice summary of the coming trouble is here.

If nothing is done before the State of the Union expect a nice little jab in there along with the expected slam on the GOP for running the most inefficient congress in 40+ years.

Thoughts? I was sick of this crap in 2011, a repeat means I'm going to ignore the news until April.

[Coren]

I don't see the republicans having the balls to try to push the US into default again... but they may be stupid enough.

That said, there's been significant research and discussion about whether congress is even *allowed* to push us into default. The laws currently state that we will pay our bills. It doesn't say we *might* pay them if dumbshit congressmen raise a debt limit.

[Ragnus]

It's just going to be the same show all over again where they go to the 11th hour and then kick the can down the curb for another 6 months. Congress can't even set a proper "Do this or else everything listed happens" scenario without going back and being like "lol, just kidding, we only voted on stuff that fucks the middle class without changing anything else past the deadline."

Also, Coren, I know that their presence is diminished but there are still plenty of Teatards in the Congress who ran on grinding government to a halt so there's that.

[tyven]

From a colleague on the hill

"Also, there's considerable talk about "the final stand" (negotiation-wise) being over funding the government rather than over the debt ceiling...still some GOPers who say "no debt ceiling increase" w/out at least matching spending cuts--but a lot of folks are saying "shut down the gov't" in the negotiations (if required) rather than breach the debt ceiling (or default)..."

[Ragnus]

Do people seriously not understand what kinda chaos this country would be plunged into if the government got shutdown for any significant period of time?

[Bregor]

Do people seriously not understand what kinda chaos this country would be plunged into if the government got shutdown for any significant period of time?

Define significant, because we've been here before.

[Ragnus]

Well, longer than 28 days. I don't assume anything when it comes to the way that Repubs play politics these days. For all I know they're more than willing to just sit there for who knows how long until they get exactly what they want.

[kuronosan]

I think we ought to do what usually gets done in these cases where people are doing the job you pay them for - cut their fucking pay (instead of raising it).

I would love to just be able to say "Hey, you know what? I think I'll get paid more money today for the same work" where I work.

Too bad everywhere else but Congress (and executive positions) doesn't work that way.

[archibaldcrane]

Of course it will be raised.


don't be retarded

[ronin sparthos]

Of course it will be raised.


don't be retarded

But not before a drawn out process in which the GOP spooks the economy and the American people by dragging this out to the night before and extorting concessions because Obama is a compromising kind of guy going up against partisan zealots.

Oh and don't forget we get to see Boehner herd cats as he desperately flails about in the Speaker position. I almost feel sorry for him. Almost.

[Bregor]

I love the rhetoric in this thread. "Obama is weak, GOP are zealots, blah blah blah"

Obama proposed the $400k/$450k solution to taxes over a week before the fiscal cliff, Congress sat on it, and then gave him exactly what he wanted. The GOP pissed and moaned and blamed Boehner for being weak, and then put him right back in the Speaker's chair. Will be more of the same this time around, they'll get something done at the 11th hour or early April.

[ronin sparthos]

I love the rhetoric in this thread. "Obama is weak, GOP are zealots, blah blah blah"

Obama proposed the $400k/$450k solution to taxes over a week before the fiscal cliff, Congress sat on it, and then gave him exactly what he wanted. The GOP pissed and moaned and blamed Boehner for being weak, and then put him right back in the Speaker's chair. Will be more of the same this time around, they'll get something done at the 11th hour or early April.

I said Obama is a compromiser which he is as he backpedaled on his 250k mark.
I said the GOP are zealots which they are, just look at pretty much any arm of government to see that in action.
Boehner can't rally his GOP because large swaths of the House see blood in the water with this debt ceiling battle.
Obama claims he won't be playing politics with the debt ceiling and has talked tough about it but again, he'll be compromising come March because that's the kinda guy he is.

[Seraph]

I love the rhetoric in this thread. "Obama is weak, GOP are zealots, blah blah blah"

Obama proposed the $400k/$450k solution to taxes over a week before the fiscal cliff, Congress sat on it, and then gave him exactly what he wanted. The GOP pissed and moaned and blamed Boehner for being weak, and then put him right back in the Speaker's chair. Will be more of the same this time around, they'll get something done at the 11th hour or early April.

Well, talk is cheap. What did you expect?

[Bregor]

I said the GOP are zealots which they are

http://katrinarasbold.com/wp/wp-cont...ouropinion.jpg

Well, talk is cheap. What did you expect?

I live in DC, most of my friends are paid very handsomely for talk.

[Apelila]

Obama claims he won't be playing politics with the debt ceiling and has talked tough about it but again, he'll be compromising come March because that's the kinda guy he is.

All he has to do for this round is lay the blame squarely on Congress and walk away. Bonus points for doing it during the State of the Union.

The reason it wrought as much hand wringing as it did in 2011 was the 2012 election. If you're cynical, you can point to the GOP doing anything they could to sabotage the economy before the election.

If you're really cynical, you can point to the 2013 automatic cuts that setup the fiscal cliff as a the GOP hedging their bet: If they won the 2012 election the cliff wouldn't matter, it would get blamed on Obama on his way out of office and the new Republican President could step in and magic away the mess they setup. If they lost, they just have to piss and moan until everything goes to hell so that they can repeat the same tactic for 2014.

They didn't count on their majority being so divided after the election that their own party can't pass a simple majority vote in the house. All Obama has to do is sit back and let them shoot themselves in the foot, all the while saying "Please don't point your gun at your foot". He would be an idiot to step in at any point before they pull the trigger.

[BaneTheBrawler]

Republicans are going to kick and scream, then do (or not do) something that ultimately lets Obama do whatever he wants without them. Just like every other crisis since Obama started running for President. Some serious DCLs in Congress.

[ringthree]

Do people seriously not understand what kinda chaos this country would be plunged into if the government got shutdown for any significant period of time?

The moronic thing is that shutting down the government wouldn't cover our debts.

[tyven]

AM I THE ONLY ONE THAT WANTS TO SEE THE TRILLION DOLLAR COIN?

[Bregor]

AM I THE ONLY ONE THAT WANTS TO SEE THE TRILLION DOLLAR COIN?

http://i269.photobucket.com/albums/j...ollar-bill.png

[Jer]

I'm not saying that coin idea is either bad or good, but historically hasn't it been a bad thing? When you see the failed currencies that at the end of their life were being issued in millions/billions/trillions? Or is that completely different since it was inflation?

If the coin idea would work, what would be the point honestly? Nobody will be able to actually use it as currency, and from the article I read on it, they would just take the freshly minted coin and deposit it in the Federal Reserve. It seems like a largely symbolic gesture. It's obvious the coin wouldn't be "worth" that much, but it hardly seems to matter as the entire U.S. money system is based on fiat currency. What would be different from making the coin, or just going into the Fed one day, and going, 'Ok, knock 10% off'? Or would it just be the fact that it would be that much clearer to people what is happening? I may also been full of shit since the last econ class I took in college was probably in '04.