Gear swapping 2.0? Speculation beyond class change gear swap?

[Vacht]

So we know there will be gear swapping for job changes - primarily weapons. But I wonder if we will be slaves to our gear swap macros again. Sometimes it appeared that being good at ffxi was having the right macros set up for the most efficient use.

In FFXI I hardly ever saw my char when I was fighting, macroing gear every 10-15 seconds to accomodate the situation or the ability I was using. I thought it was bad enough as thief, I could only imagine how terrible it was for red mage. Then again I was playing on PS2, so no more than 5 slots per macro.

[tsaroth816]

I think we covered this in Randomly Ridiculous FFXI to FFXIV

[arus2001]

Unless SE lets us create "gear sets" that can be called by macros in-game, I'd rather not repeat the FFXI Christmas Tree thing since it pretty much required Windower or Spellcast to not have to push 6 buttons to pull off one WS or something. Overall, this also means gear shouldn't have one stat and that's it. Instead of like 7 neck items, they can either be one uber-item or 2 where some more commonly related stats are tied together, like a mage one would have INT/MND/Ele/Enf/-Enm rolled into one and such. But that'd also have to mean the equipment system isn't so much about sidegrades, but upgrades tailored to not leave old content in the dust (aka said neck piece could be an eventual +3 of something we get in the first endgame dungeon or whatever that's upgraded through a combination of quests/leves and crafters).

[Vacht]

I think we covered this in Randomly Ridiculous FFXI to FFXIV

Ahh ok, I didnt read all the pages there \(@_<)/ Any idea what pages its on? Thanks!

Unless SE lets us create "gear sets" that can be called by macros in-game, I'd rather not repeat the FFXI Christmas Tree thing since it pretty much required Windower or Spellcast to not have to push 6 buttons to pull off one WS or something. Overall, this also means gear shouldn't have one stat and that's it. Instead of like 7 neck items, they can either be one uber-item or 2 where some more commonly related stats are tied together, like a mage one would have INT/MND/Ele/Enf/-Enm rolled into one and such. But that'd also have to mean the equipment system isn't so much about sidegrades, but upgrades tailored to not leave old content in the dust (aka said neck piece could be an eventual +3 of something we get in the first endgame dungeon or whatever that's upgraded through a combination of quests/leves and crafters).

And yeah that is a good idea, maybe allow crafters to combine certain gear into one nice little roll of delicious simplicity? It could be a neat way of integrating subjobs as well... you have an awesome idea.

[tsaroth816]

Ahh ok, I didnt read all the pages there \(@_<)/ Any idea what pages its on? Thanks!

Sure, I really liked this post http://www.bluegartr.com/forum/showt...62#post3357762, and there are a few before/after it with oppositions.

[Darus Grey]

I hope to see it back, since being able to gear-swap was the entire motivation for horizontal advancement as opposed to vertical.

Otherwise you're going to always have a single gear set that is best for most scenarios. I don't want to see another WoW style treadmill where the only purpose in the game is to replace shit with barely better shit until you're king of the hill for 2 weeks before there's even slightly better shit.

Horizontal advancement is also what kept endgame content relevant farrrrrr beyond it's time. In vertical advancement scenarios there's always only 1 or 2 events worth doing and everything else is a waste of time.

[Correction]

oh goody just what the 14 forum needs, another goddamn speculation/wishlist thread.

[LD]

Until the game comes out, that's what this forum boils down to. If this were just a place for information, the forum may as well not exist; just put links to kotaku, massively, FFXIVcore, Elmer & such. If people wanna have fun with it, let 'em. It only gets stupid when people argue about how each others totally unfounded theorycrafting will never happen in 100 years and they're retarded for thinking it will.

Let SE tell us how stupid we all are.

[arus2001]

Horizontal advancement is also what kept endgame content relevant farrrrrr beyond it's time. In vertical advancement scenarios there's always only 1 or 2 events worth doing and everything else is a waste of time.

You can still keep old content important without relying on horizontal progression. Hell, I pretty much cited one way above. Trick is to not make such content a bore where people are only doing it out of obligation instead of fun. Alternatively, the importance of old content could be "brushed off" to newer people entering the endgame scene sort of like how some merc off Cloud Evokers. The more established shells would still have the option to collect whatever requirements on their own, but in effect, they could gain more time to explore more profitable ventures letting someone else do the work for them while the little guy still gets a piece of the pie until they're ready to advance, too.

Really, I kinda think SE got XI's endgame started off on the wrong foot. Dynamis having a 64 person limit, or mobs needing full alliances, of which they probably figured everyone would be welcome for the sake of the greater good. Well, human nature took over, we get greedy, demand efficiency, and start cutting bodies where we can to up individual profitability. In short, emphasis should be on low-man content for the first year or two with the occasional "big" challenge, but once the playerbase has matured enough to formulate strategies in these limited environments, the true big guns start hitting the scene with mobs designed with awareness of popular tactics to either counter or outright invalidate one-trick-ponying.

Back to gear swapping, though, I don't really see how shooting for the biggest number on multiple sets (that some guy on a forum probably told you how to gear) is any more tactical or rewarding than one. Did the XI system prolong the life of some events? Sure. Did it promote third-party tool use? Absolutely. Does it suck going against others for countless situational items? Definitely. Can situational gear still exist? Of course, but it shouldn't be the norm. When those situations do come up, then rewards should befit a player who's gone out of their way to prepare. Fundamentally, hardcore gear-mongering kind of goes in the face of SE's goal for appeasing the casuals, too.

[niwaar]

Back to gear swapping, though, I don't really see how shooting for the biggest number on multiple sets (that some guy on a forum probably told you how to gear) is any more tactical or rewarding than one. Did the XI system prolong the life of some events? Sure. Did it promote third-party tool use? Absolutely. Does it suck going against others for countless situational items? Definitely. Can situational gear still exist? Of course, but it shouldn't be the norm. When those situations do come up, then rewards should befit a player who's gone out of their way to prepare. Fundamentally, hardcore gear-mongering kind of goes in the face of SE's goal for appeasing the casuals, too.

You hit it directly on the head there though. Situational gear prolonged the games life. Hell it is still prolonging the games life as we type here. I am a true believer in situational gear being a GOOD thing. I think it should be curtailed a bit, but being able to swap out some items for certain instances does appeal to me completely.

Do I think SE is going to get rid of it? Absolutely. They will see what it did and caused players to use and see what other games have chosen to do. (Hell even wow stopped all gear swapping with the anti-libram change patch a while back. Do I agree with it? Absolutely Not. Part of the fun of the game was to know where and when to swap gear. I definitely do not want to see people changing EVERY piece of equipment for a WS. But I would still like to see us be able to have "hMP" sets and "Mind Sets" and "MAB sets" and "Acc sets"... I just hope these are limited to a few pieces and our inevitable choices and characters. There was enough leeway in XI that we did not get into the BiS game like you have in other games. Default gear was determined by accessibility and playstyle and not everyone killing crap over and over again for BiS from some boss or raid.

*Wont comment much on your other topic of how endgame was handled and should be handled in XIV, to say you are pretty much right on. I would love to see something similar.

[arus2001]

Speaking in context of situations where you may want swaps, a few things come to mind.

Who remembers fighting the Dark Elf in FFIV? The dungeon was designed under the premise that you couldn't equip metallic items unless you wanted to endure some type of penalty. Something similar could exist here, inflicting a heavy Gravity or Slow effect. You'll want to have a cloth or leather set handy. There could also be another dungeon infested with termites that, while they don't hurt you, wielding wooden items would result in a steady durability loss as they commence feasting. One can employ your imagination for other settings, but keep in mind these inconveniences should yield reasonable rewards to make people want to put up with them.

Situations where you may be tackling a dungeon/boss of a specific element where you can gear against it should also happen. This stuff shouldn't be so god awful for other uses like a Fire Resist set for Tiamat is now. You'd basically be giving up a bit of offense (possibly) for an enhanced defense, and hopefully SE doesn't drop the ball on DEF/Vit/Resists this time around, either.

These are more long term swaps as opposed to twitch reflex hyper-efficiency like HMP, MAB, and other sets. Cyclically speaking, braving that Ice Dungeon should reward you with stuff that'd make the Wind Dungeon easier, and so on. Maybe eventually, if you collect a helmet from all of these, you can do some quest/leve/craft that gets you some omni-resist helmet or something even cooler. Multiply these for every gear slot and people would have a lot to strive for, while eventually easing the burden of needing to swap for those who have worked for it.

Gameplay opinions aside, the very first sentence of my first post is the most important point on this matter. Everybody needs to be on a level playing field if situational swapping is present. Discrepancies will eventually arise as those with more time and money get more and more gear, but we should never see something like "lern2spellcast" uttered by anyone.

[Uzor]

Speaking in context of situations where you may want swaps, a few things come to mind.

Who remembers fighting the Dark Elf in FFIV? The dungeon was designed under the premise that you couldn't equip metallic items unless you wanted to endure some type of penalty. Something similar could exist here, inflicting a heavy Gravity or Slow effect. You'll want to have a cloth or leather set handy. There could also be another dungeon infested with termites that, while they don't hurt you, wielding wooden items would result in a steady durability loss as they commence feasting. One can employ your imagination for other settings, but keep in mind these inconveniences should yield reasonable rewards to make people want to put up with them.

Situations where you may be tackling a dungeon/boss of a specific element where you can gear against it should also happen. This stuff shouldn't be so god awful for other uses like a Fire Resist set for Tiamat is now. You'd basically be giving up a bit of offense (possibly) for an enhanced defense, and hopefully SE doesn't drop the ball on DEF/Vit/Resists this time around, either.

These are more long term swaps as opposed to twitch reflex hyper-efficiency like HMP, MAB, and other sets. Cyclically speaking, braving that Ice Dungeon should reward you with stuff that'd make the Wind Dungeon easier, and so on. Maybe eventually, if you collect a helmet from all of these, you can do some quest/leve/craft that gets you some omni-resist helmet or something even cooler. Multiply these for every gear slot and people would have a lot to strive for, while eventually easing the burden of needing to swap for those who have worked for it.

Gameplay opinions aside, the very first sentence of my first post is the most important point on this matter. Everybody needs to be on a level playing field if situational swapping is present. Discrepancies will eventually arise as those with more time and money get more and more gear, but we should never see something like "lern2spellcast" uttered by anyone.

I like this idea, I'd love to see more puzzling dungeons such as Salvage.

I'd really want to have more strategy involved in dungeons and fights, that require more planning and communication. But it has to be balanced, SE has a tendency of making things too advanced (yes, I'm looking at you Absolute Virtue)

[McGoonagle]

My speculation: the restriction on weapon-swapping in the middle of a fight is an augury that a lot of gear-swapping will be gimped or blocked entirely.

You're going to have to select a balanced set of gear before embarking on a mission/guildleve/beer run.

You will have to unlearn FFXI habits.

[Eyedea-Seraph]

Blinkmenot I think was the name of the program that fixed the targeting issue for ffxi when someone was changing gear, these programs which outside programmers made should have been implemented by SE themselves as a means to negate the use of other third party tools from the game(not likely that will ever happen but dream with me here!!). I like the thought that you can still have gears swaps for all aspects of the game as it gives us a reason to go out and do as many quests as possible to attain these items (i guess some of us enjoy the grind a bit ,lulz) but that being said.... to use these items being a determent in fight situation to those around you is not something i looked forward to. SE should in a sence make their own version where the players around you would see your character stay in one set but items would still be changed by the use of macros, maybe work it so your gears changes don't take affect on screen in certain areas or instances but then in city or non-instanced based areas the change of gear can be seen by anyone around you.

[BRP]

oh goody just what the 14 forum needs, another goddamn speculation/wishlist thread.

What it doesn't need!: mods who know how to merge threads.

[arus2001]

I like this idea, I'd love to see more puzzling dungeons such as Salvage.

I'd really want to have more strategy involved in dungeons and fights, that require more planning and communication. But it has to be balanced, SE has a tendency of making things too advanced (yes, I'm looking at you Absolute Virtue)

I wouldn't exactly call Salvage a puzzle. More like throwing you in a dark room and saying have fun getting out. Oh, and it's boobie-trapped. It's also a very un-fun event if you're someone who gets cells last.

That aside, I'm all for mobs being more intelligent than simply attacking you until you die, but if they're going to be gimmicky, then the game world needs to present clues somehow. It could be bloody writing on a cave wall next to a corpse. It could be advice from an old bounty hunter. Maybe the mob simply trash talks, emotes, or visually cues a particular (set of) action(s). XI was abysmal in being self-contained about quest/mission requirements or even pointing you in the right direction at times.

Anyway, actual physical puzzles are somewhat harder to implement unless you go with the randomly generated approach. If they're static, people just start looking up guides and there's no real fun to it. I'm torn on the "On the clock" model of events like Salvage or Assaults, too. Sometimes timers are okay, but throw too many in and it hurts those who prefer more laid back play or might not be the in job for that particular activity.

[Shuichi]

My speculation: the restriction on weapon-swapping in the middle of a fight is an augury that a lot of gear-swapping will be gimped or blocked entirely.

You're going to have to select a balanced set of gear before embarking on a mission/guildleve/beer run.

You will have to unlearn FFXI habits.

Agreed. Was not a fan of the gear swapping.

[ringthree]

My speculation: the restriction on weapon-swapping in the middle of a fight is an augury that a lot of gear-swapping will be gimped or blocked entirely.

You're going to have to select a balanced set of gear before embarking on a mission/guildleve/beer run.

You will have to unlearn FFXI habits.

I don't know about there. There have been a lot of interviews and I can't find the exact one, but I believe Tanaka said that they were going to have the same kind of focus on variable equipment like in FFXI. Weapons would be the exception, but that is generally the same for FFXI right now for melee. Mages swap all the time, we already know how bad elemental staffs are for the game mechanics, but that is neither here nor there.

[ringthree]

I wouldn't exactly call Salvage a puzzle. More like throwing you in a dark room and saying have fun getting out. Oh, and it's boobie-trapped. It's also a very un-fun event if you're someone who gets cells last.

You don't do much Salvage.

[Vacht]

oh goody just what the 14 forum needs, another goddamn speculation/wishlist thread.

Hell, you almost had me convinced my girlfriend was secretly posting on bluegartr. this is totally the way she acts when she is on her rag, and she just started. I can tell because she gets super negative nancy and bitches a lot. But thats stating the obvious.

I don't know about there. There have been a lot of interviews and I can't find the exact one, but I believe Tanaka said that they were going to have the same kind of focus on variable equipment like in FFXI. Weapons would be the exception, but that is generally the same for FFXI right now for melee. Mages swap all the time, we already know how bad elemental staffs are for the game mechanics, but that is neither here nor there.

Well in the original post i was talkin about there being a sense of skill to it, so I wouldnt exactly be opposed to it. Usually its the things we dont like to do in a game, and do them well to really feel like we are skilled at the game. We usually dont like doing the difficult inconvenient things right? So if anything... if it stays the same as ffxi with all the gear swaps we could have another aspect to work at being skilled at.

My speculation: the restriction on weapon-swapping in the middle of a fight is an augury that a lot of gear-swapping will be gimped or blocked entirely.

You're going to have to select a balanced set of gear before embarking on a mission/guildleve/beer run.

You will have to unlearn FFXI habits.

This gives me great hope that we are looking for a more adventuring and less button mashing experience. You have a good idea.