What's Better?

[Michelob]

Kirschy and Mizunos did testing here that showed full NIN AF3+2 with Tiercel to work out to 253/1024 (or possibly 254/1024) for a minimum of 24.7% Haste.

So you're 100% sure that .3% haste is better than 3% more offhand swings? Maybe I'm not understanding how those offhand swings are calculated into damage.

If you have no other forms of haste and the .3% is just going to put you at the 256/1024 gear cap then it won't make that much a difference. If that .3% is putting you from 770/1024 to 800/1024 then you bet your ass it's better. Increasing returns, etc.

And if your Brd has a +3 Harp or a Gjallarhorn, forget it you definitely don't need capped gear haste to cap delay reduction.

Obviously if you're hitting haste cap without capping gear haste then the point is moot...

[Kidnoftle]

I guess that's kind of what I was saying. When we're talking about differences that small, as well as each set having different (situational) benefits... I don't think it makes sense to say any one setup is "trash".

Edit*
That said, I'd guess that everything is probably about to change again with the level cap increase anyway.

Idk bout you, but loading my inv with things I don't need/don't provide a large enough %gain is a serious disincentive to any set lol. And at scrooge; dDex caps inside abyssea so the 10dex you get off the hands is basically pointless unless you're super strapped for acc; outside of abyssea it really depends but 10dex isn't something to prioritize over haste. The only reason I would think that tping in the set would be beneficial is if you needed a hybrid set that needed a slight push in eva while still maintaining a high hit rate value. But idk, I've never been put in a situation where that would be necessary.

[Scrooge]

And at scrooge; dDex caps inside abyssea so the 10dex you get off the hands is basically pointless unless you're super strapped for acc; outside of abyssea it really depends but 10dex isn't something to prioritize over haste.

Only I never said the dDex bonus should be prioritized over Haste. I was simply replying directly to a question on what the actual difference between the two combinations is.

At any rate, dDex bonus is rarely something to be concerned with in a TP setup anyway unless you're specifically gearing for a certain mob. If you have too much, it does jack shit and if you don't have enough, it's often a pathetically insignificant bonus. But it's still a difference.

[Shibo]

Just finished my kannagi earlier today, wondering what would be better for sub slot outside abyssea:

Enchu +2 (dmg51 delay242 dbl attk+10) or kamome?

(i already have the enchu+2 done, only reason why im considering it)

Thanks

[Nightfyre]

Kamome

[Gun-it]

Oirandori
edit: Guess the question was either or.

[Zzsark]

What are the ideal Torcleaver setups for DRK/lulzPLD now? (Including augmented heca)

[dasva]

If you have no other forms of haste and the .3% is just going to put you at the 256/1024 gear cap then it won't make that much a difference. If that .3% is putting you from 770/1024 to 800/1024 then you bet your ass it's better. Increasing returns, etc.

I think you mean from 770/1024 to 773/1024. Which only works out to 1.2% increase in attack speed. 3% increase in offhand is only slightly less when not using DA/TA atmas assuming optimal gearing. So outside of abyssea yeah that full set would win anytime you aren't getting haste and double marches.

Btw does nin set bonus actually count as DA? Ie adds actually adds with other DA

[Gustave]

Just for discussion since -50 agi and HP-25% sucks for tanking anything on ninja, how does RR/AoO/Apoc compare to RR/GH/Apoc for pure dmg output on Kannagi (85) ninja?

To add, assuming your with a af3+2 body war, no food.

[Kidnoftle]

I think you mean from 770/1024 to 773/1024. Which only works out to 1.2% increase in attack speed. 3% increase in offhand is only slightly less when not using DA/TA atmas assuming optimal gearing. So outside of abyssea yeah that full set would win anytime you aren't getting haste and double marches.

Btw does nin set bonus actually count as DA? Ie adds actually adds with other DA

Probably because it isn't technically DA.

Oirandori
edit: Guess the question was either or.

Even if this was an option kamome is better. Phink it was kamugi who answered my orig question on this saying that you'd need at least a base dmg 55 katana to touch kamome

[Shiyo]

Just for discussion since -50 agi and HP-25% sucks for tanking anything on ninja, how does RR/AoO/Apoc compare to RR/GH/Apoc for pure dmg output on Kannagi (85) ninja?

To add, assuming your with a af3+2 body war, no food.

What's AoO? Alpha and omega atma > Apoc if you can use the attk(pretty much any non-vision zone nm) is what someone said. So atma of alpha andomega/gh/rr would be the best pure DD atmas. I personally would never give up apocs instant casts and auto-RR(stuff happens ._.) for a DPS increase.You should be using food if you're benefiting from the attk of alpha/omega atma, even if it's 4k/stack mithkabobs.

Even if this was an option kamome is better. Phink it was kamugi who answered my orig question on this saying that you'd need at least a base dmg 55 katana to touch kamome

Is this true? If it is yay, I don't have to brew that goblin..

[Gustave]

I wasn't talking about using af3 body on ninja, I was referring to assuming Blood Rage 20% of the time.

[Shiyo]

Oh @_@ What's AOO?

[Michelob]

I think you mean from 770/1024 to 773/1024.

Yes I did. Missed a 0 in calculation but the point still stands and it appears we are in agreement; in near haste cap situations you'd want to opt for the extra haste over the set bonus.

[Gun-it]

Even if this was an option kamome is better. Phink it was kamugi who answered my orig question on this saying that you'd need at least a base dmg 55 katana to touch kamome

Really?

[Gustave]

Oh @_@ What's AOO?

Sorry, you were correct with Alpha and Omega

[Flight_93]

Anger Bomblet vs. Qirmiz in/out of Abyss?

[dasva]

Yes I did. Missed a 0 in calculation but the point still stands and it appears we are in agreement; in near haste cap situations you'd want to opt for the extra haste over the set bonus.

Well that and you aren't going to get 770 without haste spell double march (not sure if you still need 2hr) and haste samba from a merited dnc. And the problem with having to be near capped haste situation is we are talking about nin. The amount of haste you used as an example would have even a naked nin over capped on total delay reduction.

Assuming suppa and af3 head and no other DW, a nin would cap total delay reduction at 63.63% haste or about 652/1024. Assuming you exactly hit that with the mixed set propose (highly unlikely but lets skew things against the full set) that ends up only being a .46% increase in attack speed over the full set.

[Nightfyre]

Yes I did. Missed a 0 in calculation but the point still stands and it appears we are in agreement; in near haste cap situations you'd want to opt for the extra haste over the set bonus.

NIN wouldn't benefit from 3/1024 haste at 770/1024 anyway since even if you're wearing no DW gear you'll cap delay reduction at 709/1024 haste. With the more common Iga Zukin +2/Suppanomimi setup for high haste situations, it's 652/1024.

Would appreciate a link to data on set bonus being OAT or DA, it's something I've wondered about but haven't had time to test, nor have I seen any testing on it. Personally, given Yugl's post here and assuming it's OAT I find that 5/5 falls behind even in low buff situations, particularly if you can take advantage of Rancor Collar.

[Scrooge]

Would appreciate a link to data on set bonus being OAT or DA, it's something I've wondered about but haven't had time to test, nor have I seen any testing on it.

This is from eight months ago. Someone originally posted evidence of OAT and I attempted to replicate his findings and failed.