Ridiculous Police News (Specific events)

[Andalusian girls]

look at how often police forces kill people in other first world nations compared to ours, even adjusting for our higher crime rate and the greater prevalence of guns and for population. per capita we have 3 times as many guns as Canada, 3 times the murder rate, and yet our cops killed people 20-30 times as frequently. the numbers are similar for heavily armed European nations like France and Germany and Switzerland, and the ratio skews into absurdity when looking at especially peaceful years in those nations while our rate of police killings has risen to its highest level in two decades.

the issue is not simply bad cops being bad. the majority of police brutality cases stem from the tragic farce that is the war on drugs, and concomitant legislative + judicial efforts far beyond the beat cop's territory have made America home to 25% of the world's prison population with less than 5% of the world's general population as the ACLU, among many others, have written libraries on the militarization of the police force.

in no international freedom index is America still considered the freest nation on earth, in almost none are we even in the top ten (and that is with our very free economy dragging up our less free civil liberties). if the facts that we jail our citizens at a rate far greater than does Putin's Russia or Jinping's China and that our police are more likely to kill you than are the secret police of many dictatorships does not fundamentally make you ill at ease and lead to questioning about the state of American law enforcement i don't know what to tell you.

[Nephlite]

look at how often the police force kills people in other first world nations compared to ours, even adjusting for our higher crime rate and the greater prevalence of guns. per capita we have 3 times as many guns as Canada, 3 times the murder rate, and our cops killed people 30 times as frequently. the numbers are similar for heavily armed European nations like France and Germany and Switzerland.

but the issue is not simply bad cops being bad. the overwhelming majority of police brutality cases stem from the war on drugs, and concomitant legislative + judicial efforts far beyond the beat cop's territory have made America home to 25% of the world's prison population with less than 5% of the world's general population and the ACLU, among many others, have written libraries on the militarization of the police force.

in no international freedom index is America still considered the freest nation on earth, in almost none are we even in the top ten. if the facts that we jail our citizens at a rate far greater than does Putin's Russia or Jinping's China and our police are more likely to kill you than are the secret police of many dictatorships does not fundamentally make you question about the state of American law enforcement i don't know what to tell you.

I want to see your numbers for all this. Not arguing with you or anything, just wanna take a look at the sources and the data you've used to compile the info. I have tried researching Russian and Chinese enforcement numbers, and the best I could come up with heavily conflicts with what you're saying, so I'd like to compare notes.

our police are more likely to kill you than are the secret police of many dictatorships does not fundamentally make you question about the state of American law enforcement i don't know what to tell you

Ever stop and think it's not a problem with the enforcement, and instead it's a problem with the laws and lawmakers?

The police enforce laws. We don't pick or make the laws, and oftentimes we don't pick and choose how they are enforced. America is a dangerous country. Maybe not so much as places like Mexico and Brazil, but that in itself is a testimate to the effectiveness of American police forces in keeping crime like that out of our country. In that regard, the US is probably one of the safest in the world in repelling dangerous Cartel and terrorist movements.

You're also making a comparison between the largest free nation in the world to a dictatorship? I forgot where you're not allowed to post or use the internet freely to express your disdain for your country, when in places like North Korea, you'd be executed for spreading propoganda if the authorities found out.

[BaneTheBrawler]

I forgot where you're not allowed to post or use the internet freely to express your disdain for your country, when in places like North Korea, you'd be executed for spreading propoganda if the authorities found out.

dude

[Andalusian girls]

Ever stop and think it's not a problem with the enforcement, and instead it's a problem with the laws and lawmakers?

the issue is not simply bad cops being bad. the majority of police brutality cases stem from the tragic farce that is the war on drugs, and concomitant legislative + judicial efforts far beyond the beat cop's territory etc etc etc

ever stop and read my whole post

i'll respond to the ad hominem of you impugning my patriotism only to state it is because i love my country i desire to improve it, as the best of its citizens always have.

a compiled list of sources to come, those that can be found on the internet anyways

oh and India is now the largest democracy on earth

[Ksandra]

Ever stop and think it's not a problem with the enforcement, and instead it's a problem with the laws and lawmakers?

It's both.

[archibaldcrane]

My issue is mainly that it was THREE adult male cops here. There's no fear of one cop getting overwhelmed and losing control of the suspect if he grabs him. It's 3 on 1, they had ample manpower at the ready to wreck this guy without fucking shooting him to death.

[Thunder]

I take death very seriously. It's not a benign opinion to me at all.

Right, but you're making the mistake of associating people's opinions with death so it looks like you're losing your shit @ someone advocating the death of people when all someone might be saying is:

hey, they're doing the best they can and changing the policy of "think about yourself first" will yield more tragic news than it is now. I mean, there's a reason that those policies are so deeply ingrained in all the different types of response teams

I mean, even that statement there, "I take death very seriously!", that's a hyperbole in this context... as if anybody here doesn't share that sentiment? it's like having a discussion about changes in education and you're trying to discuss with someone who just spouts, "ALL children should get EQUAL, and FAIR education! and ALL women should be respected!" great, but that has nothing to do with what's actually going on.. it's like you're more interested in fighting a PR battle with "lurkers" or some other social proof by aligning emotions rather than actually have a rational discussion

[Ksandra]

Right, but you're making the mistake of associating people's opinions with death so it looks like you're losing your shit @ someone advocating the death of people when all someone might be saying is:

hey, they're doing the best they can and changing the policy of "think about yourself first" will yield more tragic news than it is now. I mean, there's a reason that those policies are so deeply ingrained in all the different types of response teams

If you can't handle the way I type, don't respond to it. I am not changing my style for you.

I mean, even that statement there, "I take death very seriously!", that's a hyperbole in this context... as if anybody here doesn't share that sentiment?

Clearly it's not the same attitude if you think that your opinions are benign.

it's like you're more interested in fighting a PR battle with "lurkers" or some other social proof by aligning emotions rather than actually have a rational discussion

Or maybe some of us have already talked forever and a day in threads like these about what needs to change already.

[Nephlite]

ever stop and read my whole post

i'll respond to the ad hominem of you impugning my patriotism only to state it is because i love my country i desire to improve it, as the best of its citizens always have.

a compiled list of sources to come, those that can be found on the internet anyways

oh and India is now the largest democracy on earth

and our police are more likely to kill you than are the secret police of many dictatorships does not fundamentally make you question about the state of American law enforcement i don't know what to tell you.

Your post touches on a topic and circles back around to this. If you're going to fix your country, stop circling your arguments and directing them to be one sided after you make a point.

My issue is mainly that it was THREE adult male cops here. There's no fear of one cop getting overwhelmed and losing control of the suspect if he grabs him. It's 3 on 1, they had ample manpower at the ready to wreck this guy without fucking shooting him to death.

You don't know if they didn't try.

[archibaldcrane]

Sorry Neph, I'm not going to entertain a scenario where 3 cops tried and failed to tackle one guy to the point where they were left with no option other than shooting him to death.

[Acevalefor]

I'm very late to this, but I wanted to say, for Karbuncle; That list was just off the top of my head recent news stories where the outcome could have been dramatically different if the Police did not rely on force and had done something different. The comment about not breaking down someone's door and/or remaining cautious and backing away from the door was to show that if the police had not been so invasive in a welfare check, it would have ended differently. We have already talked about this, but the point remains that focusing on force and aggression to control and command a situation is not always correct.

I know I did not break down doors and enter houses with a gun drawn when I did welfare checks as a volunteer on a rural fire department. Even when there was no response, I still did not break down the door.

Neph, regarding my friend getting Felony extracted from his vehicle, I don't need you to believe it. It happened. He is currently in court battles with them. They (the prosecutor) tried to bully him into accepting "Improper use of vehicle lighting". You know the routine: "We are going to put you away for 20 years if you don't accept this deal and you don't stand a chance of being acquitted because we make the rules and do whatever we want." because they will never admit that they fucked up and the officer got too excited and trumped up charges for something that didn't actually happen. That's pretty intimidating for a guy who has never dealt with the law before and has a family. He actually accepted the deal at first but later realized they were dead wrong. That just shows how coercive police and the courts can be.

[Andalusian girls]

incarceration rate
http://www.prisonstudies.org/highest...xonomy_tid=All

http://www.economist.com/blogs/econo...ist-explains-8

two points of order, the Chinese rates are underreported by the roughly 200,000-300,000 people in their reeducation camps (not included for some reason), and the U.S. numbers do not include youth incarceration, which some see fitting and others take exception to. as with adults we incarcerate more youths than any other nation on earth.

http://www.prisonpolicy.org/reports/pie.html

militarization of policing
https://www.aclu.org/sites/default/f...t-web-rel1.pdf

police killings highest in two decades
http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/n...reds/18818663/

baseline rate of police killings + gun ownership + homicide rate pumped into the equation
http://fivethirtyeight.com/datalab/a...ice-homicides/
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Number_...ita_by_country
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of..._homicide_rate

i'm still sweaty from basketball and gonna shower but i think that's everything, let me know if i didn't address a particular statistical claim

[Andalusian girls]

Your post touches on a topic and circles back around to this. If you're going to fix your country, stop circling your arguments and directing them to be one sided after you make a point.

i don't know what you're trying to say but i find it self-evident my post was at least as concerned with what laws are being enforced as it was with how they are being enforced

[Nephlite]

Sorry Neph, I'm not going to entertain a scenario where 3 cops tried and failed to tackle one guy to the point where they were left with no option other than shooting him to death.

Why? Your entire view of this incident is from a 25 second video. You don't believe they used a Taser either because it wasn't captured on video?

I'm very late to this, but I wanted to say, for Karbuncle; That list was just off the top of my head recent news stories where the outcome could have been dramatically different if the Police did not rely on force and had done something different. The comment about not breaking down someone's door and/or remaining cautious and backing away from the door was to show that if the police had not been so invasive in a welfare check, it would have ended differently. We have already talked about this, but the point remains that focusing on force and aggression to control and command a situation is not always correct.

I know I did not break down doors and enter houses with a gun drawn when I did welfare checks as a volunteer on a rural fire department. Even when there was no response, I still did not break down the door.

Neph, regarding my friend getting Felony extracted from his vehicle, I don't need you to believe it. It happened. He is currently in court battles with them. They (the prosecutor) tried to bully him into accepting "Improper use of vehicle lighting". You know the routine: "We are going to put you away for 20 years if you don't accept this deal and you don't stand a chance of being acquitted because we make the rules and do whatever we want." because they will never admit that they fucked up and the officer got too excited and trumped up charges for something that didn't actually happen. That's pretty intimidating for a guy who has never dealt with the law before and has a family. He actually accepted the deal at first but later realized they were dead wrong. That just shows how coercive police and the courts can be.

If your friend is facing 20 years, or even an arrest for a taillight (non-arrestable BTW, and no prosecutor in the world will allow a defendant to plead out to a civil infraction), then your friend is lying to you or this story is filed under #thathappened.

Every situation in the world could have ended differently. What could have happened is irrelevant to what happened at the time of the incident, and would a reasonable person respond to that perception under similar circumstances. If you can honestly and truly say "no, I wouldn't do that in those exact same circumstances", and convince 11 of your peers to see it that way as well, then it is a crime, and it's wrong. If you cannot, then you need to stop and examine yourself and think if maybe you're the one who is wrong.

[archibaldcrane]

Why? Your entire view of this incident is from a 25 second video.

Because it's a ridiculous either/or - that it was safe enough to pursue 3-man tackling him, but then dangerous enough that they had to shoot him.

Attempting to tackle a guy isn't like using a taser, it doesn't run out of ammo.

[Nephlite]

i don't know what you're trying to say but i find it self-evident my post was at least as concerned with what laws are being enforced as it was with how they are being enforced

You did, but then it circled back to enforcement. You could have done without the last paragraph, but you chose to include it to drive your point home, which is your mistake. It undermines your point.

Because it's a ridiculous either/or - that it was safe enough to pursue 3-man tackling him, but then dangerous enough that they had to shoot him.

Attempting to tackle a guy isn't like using a taser, it doesn't run out of ammo.

It does when you've been fighting with someone for a while and you start to get tired or you're injured. The article said two officers were treated for injuries. Supposed that they were hit in the eye or hit hard enough to ring their bell?

[archibaldcrane]

It's 3 on 1. You're tripping over yourself to give them the benefit of the doubt, I have no reason to do that, especially since they are alive and he is dead.

[chazzyphizzle]

well if their head hurts they should definitely give him the 3 man firing squad treatment

[Nephlite]

It's 3 on 1. You're tripping over yourself to give them the benefit of the doubt, I have no reason to do that, especially since they are alive and he is dead.

I think I understand a bit more. This isn't about tactics, the police, or anything else. It's about a moral compass. I think I get it a bit better now.

[Nephlite]

well if their head hurts they should definitely give him the 3 man firing squad treatment

I know this is sarcasm but, Jmc posted a link where injury and desperation, and the real threat of you going unconscious is most definitely a deadly force situation. This is generally why unarmed subjects are killed by the police. Just because there's three officers, does not mean one cannot be put in a situation that requires him to shoot the offender to save his or another officers life. If three people alone cannot immediately end a threat, and the threat needs to end right then and there, then it needs to end.