Neutrinos "DO" move faster than light (revisited)

[Uzor]

After getting debunked in September, they've arrived at the same results again

The team which found that neutrinos may travel faster than light has carried out an improved version of their experiment - and confirmed the result.

If confirmed by other experiments, the find could undermine one of the basic principles of modern physics.

Critics of the first report in September had said that the long bunches of neutrinos (tiny particles) used could introduce an error into the test.

The new work used much shorter bunches.

It has been posted to the Arxiv repository and submitted to the Journal of High Energy Physics, but has not yet been reviewed by the scientific community.

The experiments have been carried out by the Opera collaboration - short for Oscillation Project with Emulsion (T)racking Apparatus.

It hinges on sending bunches of neutrinos created at the Cern facility (actually produced as decays within a long bunch of protons produced at Cern) through 730km (454 miles) of rock to a giant detector at the INFN-Gran Sasso laboratory in Italy.

The initial series of experiments, comprising 15,000 separate measurements spread out over three years, found that the neutrinos arrived 60 billionths of a second faster than light would have, travelling unimpeded over the same distance.

The idea that nothing can exceed the speed of light in a vacuum forms a cornerstone in physics - first laid out by James Clerk Maxwell and later incorporated into Albert Einstein's theory of special relativity.

Timing is everything
Initial analysis of the work by the wider scientific community argued that the relatively long-lasting bunches of neutrinos could introduce a significant error into the measurement.

Those bunches lasted 10 millionths of a second - 160 times longer than the discrepancy the team initially reported in the neutrinos' travel time.

To address that, scientists at Cern adjusted the way in which the proton beams were produced, resulting in bunches just three billionths of a second long.

When the Opera team ran the improved experiment 20 times, they found almost exactly the same result.

"This is reinforcing the previous finding and ruling out some possible systematic errors which could have in principle been affecting it," said Antonio Ereditato of the Opera collaboration.

"We didn't think they were, and now we have the proof," he told BBC News. "This is reassuring that it's not the end of the story."

The first announcement of evidently faster-than-light neutrinos caused a stir worldwide; the Opera collaboration is very aware of its implications if eventually proved correct.

The error in the length of the bunches, however, is just the largest among several potential sources of uncertainty in the measurement, which must all now be addressed in turn; these mostly centre on the precise departure and arrival times of the bunches.

"So far no arguments have been put forward that rule out our effect," Dr Ereditato said.

"This additional test we made is confirming our original finding, but still we have to be very prudent, still we have to look forward to independent confirmation. But this is a positive result."

That confirmation may be much longer in coming, as only a few facilities worldwide have the detectors needed to catch the notoriously flighty neutrinos - which interact with matter so rarely as to have earned the nickname "ghost particles".

Next year, teams working on two other experiments at Gran Sasso experiments - Borexino and Icarus - will begin independent cross-checks of Opera's results.

The US Minos experiment and Japan's T2K experiment will also test the observations. It is likely to be several months before they report back.

[alexisamonster]

I'm confused, The group doing this experiment found their error. They were not taking into account the relativity of the satellite used to track the start and end time of the neutrino's. After taking into account the time change from the moving satellite (60 nanoseconds, which further reinforces that Einstein's theory of relativity is correct) it was exactly what they were saying the neutrino's were arriving faster than, showing that they were traveling almost exactly the speed of light.

[Uzor]

Iunno, apparently they re-calibrated their equipment or something and found out that once again neutrinos were moving faster than the speed of life...

Personally I find it hilarious, because if they did the same mistake again they'll have lost all credibility as scientists.

[shepardG]

From what I remember reading, the relativity of the satelittes was the argument posed to the group that made the initial findings, however the claimed that it was taken into account. The group that just did it, the folks at the LHC, are factoring this in by increasing the time in between the bursts of neutrinos, and are getting the same results as the initial claim that they are faster than light. Time to start looking for nutreino bursts from the future warning us about the impending zombie outbreak...

[Callisto]

of course they do, they have a fucking hover-hotrod

[Xfaustx]

I'm confused, The group doing this experiment found their error. They were not taking into account the relativity of the satellite used to track the start and end time of the neutrino's. After taking into account the time change from the moving satellite (60 nanoseconds, which further reinforces that Einstein's theory of relativity is correct) it was exactly what they were saying the neutrino's were arriving faster than, showing that they were traveling almost exactly the speed of light.

When you say relativity you mean the time dilation between the two satellites yeah? I hope this experiment holds water... could turn out to be one of the most important findings in years... if true. *crosses fingers*

[alexisamonster]

When you say relativity you mean the time dilation between the two satellites yeah? I hope this experiment holds water... could turn out to be one of the most important findings in years... if true. *crosses fingers*

Not exactly, time slows down slightly for any object in motion(the faster the speed the more time slows down). I read somewhere that the scientist who were conducting the original experiment forgot to take into account that since the satellite(s) were traveling around the earth at 3-7km/s that the reported time from the satellite would be ~60 nanoseconds faster, giving them almost the exact amount of time error that they said the neutrino's were traveling faster than.

[Blarg]

Maybe light has been moving so fast for so long that it just got tired and moved a bit slower than normal so it just looked like the neutrinos were going faster.

[Uzor]

Maybe light has been moving so fast for so long that it just got tired and moved a bit slower than normal so it just looked like the neutrinos were going faster.

That's true. Light should be getting quite old at this point. It's not a whippersnapper anymore.

[Niiro]

But the faster you're moving the slower time passes. Since light moves at lightspeed, even though it's been around for 14 some-odd billion years it's only like 7 or 8 in dog-light-years.

Spoiler: show

what

[Xno Kappa]

So when do we get warp gates?

[guartz]

i'm just pissed that most of the sci-fi I enjoyed, oh say, the last 20 years has been bullshit. Fuck science.

[Abandon]

Iunno, apparently they re-calibrated their equipment or something and found out that once again neutrinos were moving faster than the speed of life...

Personally I find it hilarious, because if they did the same mistake again they'll have lost all credibility as scientists.

Word?

[Uzor]

Absolutely. It's how they discovered that we humans actually have a rather long half-life in the grand scheme of things... Apparently life is too slow. Especially if you're working at a job you hate - or if you're looking forward to a certain event.

[LinktheDeme]

So when do we get warp gates?

When we research it at the cybernetics core.

[BaneTheBrawler]

Let me know when they can move faster than the speed of love.

[Blarg]

When we research it at the cybernetics core.

so if lings reach my base before I get it researched are the lings faster than light too?

[Blarg]

but I don't speak slant to tell them that

[Xno Kappa]

Scream at them "No kimchi 4 j00!"

[Xfaustx]

Not exactly, time slows down slightly for any object in motion(the faster the speed the more time slows down). I read somewhere that the scientist who were conducting the original experiment forgot to take into account that since the satellite(s) were traveling around the earth at 3-7km/s that the reported time from the satellite would be ~60 nanoseconds faster, giving them almost the exact amount of time error that they said the neutrino's were traveling faster than.

Yeah this is the definition of time dilation, just wanted to clarify what you meant by saying relativity. Time dilation is not just effected by the closeness to the center of mass (gravity well) of objects but also the relative velocity of objects, due to the Lorentz factor which is gamma (proper time), v being velocity and c being the speed of light, Γ = 1 / √(1 - v^2 / c^2), which is where their supposed %errors were coming from, but also among many other sources of possible error including apparently the length of neutrino bursts. I'm slightly more curious as to how they're catching these neutrinos in the first place so accurately and with large enough of a sample. I know back in early 2001-2002 they were using the SNO detector in Canada to reinforce the theories of 3 flavors of neutrino (tau, muon, and electron). That detector required a thousand gallons of heavy water (meaning a deuteron in the nucleus of a heavy Hydrogen atom of heavy water), and when a neutrino would hit these heavy water molecules it would turn a neutron into a proton and a neutrino into an electron, but that only accounts for electron neutrinos and not the other 3 flavors, but also you only get 1 sample per trillion (estimated), and then to be able to detect and measure the decay of a single particle in 1 thousand metric tons of heavy water... is ridiculous. I wonder how far their neutrino detectors have come in the past 9 years, and what methods they're using now, also what type of neutrino they're using for the experiments.