Einherjar woes

[Freysi]

My linkshell has tried several different strategies with Einherjar, and we can't seem to get many tier 2 wins.

Our last run we got Hectyes on the first wave, then Imps + Dahak. The Hecteyes seemed to have ~10k hp each and really slowed us down, the Imps were weak but there were tons of them (24 maybe? Seemed like more than 12).

We never have any problems killing the mobs, and never have any downtime between mobs, always have several slept at the same time, but we always end up timing out on the boss, varies from 1-40%

Our setup on the aforementioned run was 3 merit pt setups (brd, healer, 4 DD) and one blm group, 5 blms, and a little puller pt for the blms including a brd, and a pld. We had 25 people total.

Is there something I am missing? From all the info I've tried to gather from threads here, it seems to me that this should be a winning combo, but we keep timing out. We had ~8 minutes left when we started on the Dahak.

[heartslaught]

Means more people, if it takes you forever to kill hecteyes, that's a large problem, as they go squish like a train to a watermelon. Same with the imps, that combo should be taking you no more than 15 to 20 minutes depending on the number of people you take.

Also, you using the the classic TP burn setup with CS stun? That dahak, even with 25, shoudl take no more than 2 minutes to kill, as he's extra squishy (with thirty our group does it easy). If you time out after beating on him for eight minutes? I'd look at your zerg setup honestly. I see that being your only real hurdle.

[Miraun]

Going to have to side with Heartslaught's first comment here as well. If you're entering with only 25, the biggest restriction on your group at the moment is the number of people entering with you. You have the capacity to enter with 36, that's almost 2 full parties more, or ~45% more people. Even if they're unmerited, AH geared people, the additional damage would be helpful. Hell, even if they die in the first 5 minutes, that'd be 5 more minutes of potentially low DPS that you didn't have before. In Tier 3, having 30 versus 36 people was like night and day in terms of what our group was able to accomplish. 30 was timeout shortly after getting to the boss, 36 was a clear with 5 minutes left.

In terms of tactics, etc. The only thing that comes to mind for the situations you brought up is to have a good rotation of WARs using Tomohawks on the hecteyes to down them faster. And while I'm always an advocate of my own job, I'd recommend a single DRG in the run to spam Angons throughout the battle, and give an Angon (wait for expiration), then Spirit Surge Jump for the additional defense down while zerging the boss.

Additionally, if you have not been doing it, rotate your bards in the parties to make sure that all melee have 4 songs active.

[Freysi]

Thanks.

Yeah we had one DRG spamming angon and one THF spamming feint. Working on getting people to merit Tomahawk.

If only we could get a full gather of 36 heh. Is it just unfeasible to attempt to hone our strategy to win all tiers with only 24 people?

[tufrabza]

our ls has been doing fairly well in einherjar and a good setup is 4 dd, brd, sch, we bring around 32~, but maybe only 10 dd, at least 7, maybe 8 are rune chopper warriors, which is pretty mean, just bring yag drinks. also, we use no pld, but 1 blu to aoe hold a lot of monsters, just have them in a -% gear setup



24? ick it could happen, but refinement is needed on the jobs, and you will lose a lot of t3, some are just unforgiving and made to pwn you

[Starr]

I still don't think it would be pussy to ask for 35min tier2 and 40min tier3, cus Odin is apparently easier than T3 by shit tons if you get bad luck and it would allow smaller LS to do it also. Asking for 36 people is too much when kings can be done with 12.

[Darkmoon]

We have had some great success with Einherjar, we are using a much similar party setup as you:

3 Merit type (BRD WHM DD/nin x4)

and then we throw the extra DDs 1-3 + WHM + BRD in a 4th party depending on attendance.

We use a BLM & RDM/drk party with a COR for a adds / stun control party.

The only diffrence that may be is that our DD parties are very very optimized. Each party has the following:
DD1 = WAR/nin (with tomahawk)
DD2 = DRG/nin (with capped agnon)
DD3 = MNK/nin (with penance)
DD4 = either SAM or DRK or MNK

This makes each party able to handel any mob type, and issues. Each party fights thier own mob which greatly cuts down on TP spamming mobs, and is extreamly efficent on mobs that die fast. We have typically one PLD/nin that makes the messy pulls if a lot of mobs are near each other, and then the 3 Bards pull mobs off his group, and the Adds group controls the rest.

As for the Dahak boss, you shouldnt need more then 2 mins for him (or any of the non-goofy bosses) 6 song Soul Voice rotation + 2 Chainspell stunners will let you zerg any boss in under 2 mins easily. Last time we got him was on a bad mob set, and we started the SV song rotation at 4 mins left, and ended before the 1 min mark.

[heartslaught]

I still don't think it would be pussy to ask for 35min tier2 and 40min tier3, cus Odin is apparently easier than T3 by shit tons if you get bad luck and it would allow smaller LS to do it also. Asking for 36 people is too much when kings can be done with 12.

Lol... most lses have the power and not the attendance (as seen with several shells on hades, since you are on the same server) plus coordination factors (the fact that several people migrated to tartarus for just einherjar says something I believe). Plus, most people can't think tactically enough to ever clear ein tier II and tier III. I wonder if people even read up on this event. Stagger zerg, x2 paeon, paeon march mix, brd sleepgas, x3 brd rotation cs stun lock, and constant kill speed are all part of it. If you can't accomplish that, sit back, reconsider your plan of attack, regroup, and then beat the living shit out of the chambers. Aka, stfu and stop whining, Starr. Some groups have legitimate problems with chamber clearing, you just seem incompetent.

[Mertron]

For the regluar waves of mobs, our shell has started doing BRD swaps between the three main melee parties, basically like you would do for CS melee zergs but without the soul voices. Has helped knock down mobs a lot faster.

With 25 people though, depending on what mob combos you get, it could be a struggle. Historically our shell has struggled more with T2 than T3.

[Tubbers]

We have had some great success with Einherjar, we are using a much similar party setup as you:

3 Merit type (BRD WHM DD/nin x4)

and then we throw the extra DDs 1-3 + WHM + BRD in a 4th party depending on attendance.

We use a BLM & RDM/drk party with a COR for a adds / stun control party.

The only diffrence that may be is that our DD parties are very very optimized. Each party has the following:
DD1 = WAR/nin (with tomahawk)
DD2 = DRG/nin (with capped agnon)
DD3 = MNK/nin (with penance)
DD4 = either SAM or DRK or MNK

This makes each party able to handel any mob type, and issues. Each party fights thier own mob which greatly cuts down on TP spamming mobs, and is extreamly efficent on mobs that die fast. We have typically one PLD/nin that makes the messy pulls if a lot of mobs are near each other, and then the 3 Bards pull mobs off his group, and the Adds group controls the rest.

As for the Dahak boss, you shouldnt need more then 2 mins for him (or any of the non-goofy bosses) 6 song Soul Voice rotation + 2 Chainspell stunners will let you zerg any boss in under 2 mins easily. Last time we got him was on a bad mob set, and we started the SV song rotation at 4 mins left, and ended before the 1 min mark.

I can confirm that this strategy works well, I saw Darkmoon's post in Star's thread and decided to give it a try, we won T3 Ein Dahaks + Demons + Manticores + Vampyr with 5 mins to spare and only 25 people. Instead of the DRGs we just used DRKs (DRG actually would have been better on the boss since BW doesn't work on undead) for the added zerg power and additional stuns. That's a fairly moderate T3 wave, Dahaks are usually really annoying from Chaos Blade > Body Slam and their large HP pool. Manticores are easy but have high HP. Demons are easy as long as you're on top of blindna. Additionally we used RDMs instead of WHMs for the melee PTs and took out two DDs and put in WHMs, we had 2h people sub SAM so the damage / survivability evens out pretty well.

[Darkmoon]

I can confirm that this strategy works well, I saw Darkmoon's post in Star's thread and decided to give it a try, we won T3 Ein Dahaks + Demons + Manticores + Vampyr with 5 mins to spare and only 25 people. Instead of the DRGs we just used DRKs (DRG actually would have been better on the boss since BW doesn't work on undead) for the added zerg power and additional stuns. That's a fairly moderate T3 wave, Dahaks are usually really annoying from Chaos Blade > Body Slam and their large HP pool. Manticores are easy but have high HP. Demons are easy as long as you're on top of blindna. Additionally we used RDMs instead of WHMs for the melee PTs and took out two DDs and put in WHMs, we had 2h people sub SAM so the damage / survivability evens out pretty well.

cool, glad to hear it worked for you!

The other part that you have to consider when seting up your strat is playing to the strong points in your LS. If you have tons of amazing RDMs, and so so WHMs, use RDMs over WHMs. We use WHMs due to having a very good dedicated group of them. Also the reason we use DRGs is we have 3 with capped Agnon, and one with i think 2/5. So The ability to make mobs extreamly squishy helps us a lot. Our KC DRK actually comes MNK for Einherjar, we tried KC DRK on bosses early on, and it just didn't provide that much extra when your already doing 6 SV Songs, and have 20+ DDs on the mob. Dont get me wrong, some bosses it would be great, others its useless, so we bring her MNK as MNK is good on everything in there.

Dahaks in Tier 3 suck, but if you split them off and use small parties on them it works well, when you cluster kill them with everyone on at once, your just begging to get AoEed to death. Manticores are fun, just pull and kill, no thinking involved. We also found T3 demons to be extreamly squishy. Haven't got to play with the Vamp boss yet, wish we would, he seems a lot more fun then Khim/Cerberus/KB that we keep getting.

We just started revisiting Tier 1 for next round of Odin, and its been a while. We got 12x Hounds, 12x Skelly(BLM), Wivre Boss. We hadent used the 6 song rotation till Tier II last time, and when we did it last night on Tier I, its was pretty funny. We exited with about 14 mins on the clock. So once you get your ppl use to a good setup and they are comfortable, you can just fly through waves of mobs, even when they are crappy mobs.

[Starr]

Lol... most lses have the power and not the attendance (as seen with several shells on hades, since you are on the same server) plus coordination factors (the fact that several people migrated to tartarus for just einherjar says something I believe). Plus, most people can't think tactically enough to ever clear ein tier II and tier III. I wonder if people even read up on this event. Stagger zerg, x2 paeon, paeon march mix, brd sleepgas, x3 brd rotation cs stun lock, and constant kill speed are all part of it. If you can't accomplish that, sit back, reconsider your plan of attack, regroup, and then beat the living shit out of the chambers. Aka, stfu and stop whining, Starr. Some groups have legitimate problems with chamber clearing, you just seem incompetent.

What the fuck? We are incompetent because we can't get anywhere near 36 players? Can you clear T3s with 20-25? I doubt it, your shell is a lot less worse equipped that mine.

[vagus]

25 people should be able to complete most T2 Einherjar entries, unless you get really unlucky with mobs.

Do you have a pld pulling while the alliance is assisting a warrior? With the new system to einherjer, you need to be constantly pulling sometimes several mobs at a time. Your setup of tank PT / DD PT / DD PT with a mage & brd in each DD PT seems to be ok. Also, is your blm PT nuking as well? This will generate a lot of damage as well.

Also, are you using a bard rotation for the boss or even during the killing of the 1st rounds of mobs?

[Darkmoon]

25 people should be able to complete most T2 Einherjar entries, unless you get really unlucky with mobs.

Do you have a pld pulling while the alliance is assisting a warrior? With the new system to einherjer, you need to be constantly pulling sometimes several mobs at a time. Your setup of tank PT / DD PT / DD PT with a mage & brd in each DD PT seems to be ok. Also, is your blm PT nuking as well? This will generate a lot of damage as well.

Also, are you using a bard rotation for the boss or even during the killing of the 1st rounds of mobs?

If this is response to my post:

We dont have a "Tank party"

Just 3 DD/nin x4, BRD WHM parties

Each of these parties pulls its own mobs and fights its own mob. We spread out so there are 3 camps. Left Right Center. We typicaly assign a RDM to each of the PTs to do Debuffs/Dia. We also assign a BLM to each party to help with Sleeps, and Stuns and Nuking if mob needs it.

Usualy we have about 2-3 extra DD, and we throw them in a party with a WHM and a BRD if we have an extra and put them assisting the center party. The Center party also has a PLD/nin insted of one DD/nin. His job is to make the initial pull, so that if stuff links badly, the BLMs/RDMs/BRDs can sleep incoming mobs. After this the BRDs just pull mobs off the train to thier pts for killing.

Imo using 1 tank party, and everyone assisting that party and all killing one mob is extreamly inefficent. you waste alot of time that way. You also run the risk of making the mob TP spam faster then your WHMs can keep parties healed. When you move your 3 parties apart, you take the damage that is done to your entire group by an Aoe and cut is in 1/3. This is a huge ammount of MP and healing saved.

As for BLM nuking tho, they dont really do that great of damage compared to efficent melee. A nuke here and there helps, but you cant focus on them for damage as they need a lot more down time then a good DD in Einherjar.

We only do BRD rotation on Boss. Since we spread out and our BRDs pull mobs to PTs, it would be very messy to try to swap songs, and not have mobs running all over the place. I can see where more songs would help the DDs on the trash waves, but atm we are running smooth enough that we dont need it.

Attendance wise, we have ranged form 26 to 34. Our only loss so far was a Tier III that was Marid > Scorp + Dahak > King Bhemoth , this was our 26 attendance run also a nasty storm took out 3-4 ppls power so we were short handed on some key ppl, we wanted to try first Tier III anyways. We timed out with KB at about 85% after engaging him with about a min on the clock and a few people weak from badly dealt with body slams.

Einherjar seems to be the best example of "Don't put your eggs all in one basket." If your versital, have all the damage sources covered, have both dark and light based sleeps, have a mix of support dd and mages, then you can cover everything any single run can throw at you.

If you decide to go all Melee and all MNKs then your going to get rocked by things like Slimes. If you go all BLMs, you will never do enough damage on tier 3 to kill all the waves + Boss. If you go all WARs, you will get slowed on Skellys. Balance and efficiency rule this event.

[Freysi]

Cool, thanks for the info guys.

I think we'll start with trying to fight 3 mobs at the same time. I didn't realize it would make much difference to do that as opposed to fighting one at a time. If that works well, we'll see if we can incorporate a brd rotation.

[Tubbers]

You're definitely going to want a BRD rotation for the boss, it takes ~1 minute to do and almost always makes the difference between winning and losing. Don't bother rotating BRDs if you're taking Darkmoon's approach, because between pulling and running around there is no way you're going to keep more than 3 songs active on melees, and that's just not worth it.

[tufrabza]

while i wont say it was an awesome run, a win is a win... heres a video of our t3 win today (we just started making these last run)

http://files.filefront.com/ein8+20av.../fileinfo.html

and the parse

http://www.bulushi.com-a.googlepages...r08202008.html

berd/crk/drag/laicey/orson/rezn rune chopper wars, orabuni/fran mnk

leto, kotetsuu, and tuf (me) sam, sess drk, and koe blu (mob holder)

single brd per pt, no rotation boss, dont ask me, im not the leader, or the brds

ps, no idea what parser this is, but its very nice

[Tubbers]

I don't think I believe that parse.

Player        Total Dmg   Damage %   Melee Dmg   WSkill Dmg

Berdysh           69809    14.33 %       36035        33774

This person did over 2.5x your damage, and beat the next best guy (Orson) by nearly 5%. You said they were all using Rune Chopper, so it can't be Bravura, how is he putting up that much more damage than everyone else?

Edit: Ok watched the vid, he was doing assists, but that shouldn't make up 30%+ more damage than any other single person. You guys should definitely rotate BRDs for SV, it would have changed that 4 min 5 sec Khim into a 2 min Khim, you already took way too long to sing SV songs, should be able to do 6x SV rotation in less time, just designate it before entering and have PT leads write it down.

[tufrabza]

he was main assist, (and even in the vid i asked if he had autotarget on), hes always number 1, but usually its about 5k~ from number 1 to 2, so i cant really say what happened, he had 8 more ws than orson as well, but that still is a big gap...i walked in with 300% sekkanoki, 7 more meditates, and Meikyo Shisui, and got blown away in ws (42 v 27)

(edit) ya, somethings not right, but a parse shouldnt be believed 100%, more of a guide on what to improve, it shows huginn under melee damage (thats the bird), and a zimoe under person cured, which thats not a member of the ls or any of the mules, nor the ls that entered before us...

we hit the 10min mark before starting the boss, and no boss takes 10min, so we take a moment to rest up, and i agree, rotating brds should happen, ive brought it up once, and it was shot down :/

[Tubbers]

we hit the 10min mark before starting the boss, and no boss takes 10min, so we take a moment to rest up, and i agree, rotating brds should happen, ive brought it up once, and it was shot down :/

Does your LS do Baha V2? Melee burn Kirin? Honestly SV 6x songs makes a very, very big difference (apparently you know this, but need help convincing your LS leaders). Light the Amele beacon if you want to get some serious math/numbers behind it, and tell your LS leaders to come and read it. I've witnessed it literally halve the fight time, if you guys had been fighting the Vampyr you would have probably timed out because of him splitting. I don't see any good reason not to rotate BRDs, especially if you're going to rest up prior to engaging anyways.

Assuming you are only singing Minuets, SV song rotating will give you, in addition to the attack:
28.3% Haste (43.3 - 15 from Haste spell)
~100 accuracy

The accuracy bonus will easily cap your accuracy, and the 28.3% haste will increase a Rune Chopper WAR/NIN DPS by roughly 80% assuming 25% Haste equip (This is a convervative estimate, taking delay from WSing into account), it will increase WAR/SAM + Hasso DPS by even more.

As I stated before it can easily drop a 4 minute fight to a 2 minute fight, which is roughly twice the damage per person overall.