Vote no on prop 4 + 8! (california)

[Ksandra]

Since voting time coming up and I know there are a lot of californians that read this forum. Wanted to show a breakdown on some of the things we're voting on outside the presidency.

Here's the list on the propositions:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Califor...mber_4.2C_2008

My thoughts:

Prop 1: Don't feel like this is a hot issue, I'll probably be voting yes though since it seems like commuter rails have been a good thing for the state. (ie. the recent Sprinter)

Prop 2: Friend and I debated this a little. He mentioned inorder to make veal the animal isn't supposed to move. but to me, doesn't matter, while the animal is still alive it should be treated nicely, and the fact they can't sit down....still up in the air on this one

Prop 3: Going to vote yes on this one. I know I know, taxpayers dollars, but I can never say no to helping children's hospitals.

Prop 4: Hot topic. At first looking at it I thought, "yes". But then talking it over with a friend, it really isn't good. Apparently states that have done this, the death rate in teens went up. What happens is they still try not to tell their parents and end up doing unsafe means to try and abort the fetus which often kills the mother too. It sucks because it would be nice to think it would lessen abortions, but instead it would just put teens at a higher risk.

Prop 5: Gonna vote no on this. That money can be used elsewhere for better benefit imo.

Prop 6: Gonna vote no again, though having 14 year olds tried as an adult for gang-related things is nice, the rest not worth it.

Prop 7: Gonna vote yes. Any move towards other energy sources is good imo. Bit by bit we have to get away from the oil madness.

Prop 8: no no no no no no no no no. This is retarded, and I'll be sad if it's passed. Let people marry who they want, srly. Every time I see someone with a sign on the road with "Vote yes on 8!" I wanna punch them in the mouth.

Prop 9: No idea yet on this one either.

Prop 10: Dunno. Really want to vote yes for same reason as 7. But the cost and idea is a little overreached.

Prop 11: Really not sure on this one. Thoughts on this one would be good.

Prop 12: Voting yes. No reason to vote no.


Any suggestions would be good. Sometimes good to see the other side because I may be thinking of something one way without realizing another way is different.

[Dezzimal]

Man and a woman. That is all.

[Izzy]

Man and a woman. That is all.

HAHAHAHA. I can see where this thread is going!

[Chicomagiko]

Man and a woman. That is all.

We're off to a great start!

/sarcasm

[archibaldcrane]

It sucks, but I'm positive the gay marriage ban will pass. It -always- passes in every state it's up for a vote. And it's interesting, because Obama will win California in a landslide, but yes kiddies there's -that- many pro-Obama people that don't think gay people deserve equal rights.

The farm bill is by far the most intriguing to me. I haven't seen a single ad against it, but from the looks of it it will completely change the face of the huge California factory farm industry. I feel like it will pass because most people don't understand what it's really about (of course you shouldn't keep cute doggies in cages where they can't stand up!) and this is interesting to me. I'm reluctantly supportive of it, but I imagine most farmers are terrified.

Regarding prop 5 - I think you are misunderstanding the financial aspects of this bill, and I fear that most people will do what you do and it will fail because of it. Prop 5 spends a bunch of money ($460 mil annually) to assess and treat drug offenders and a few other criminals. However, the much more important part is that it restricts prison time for certain drug offenses, to relieve overcrowding of prisons and such.

# Limits court authority to incarcerate offenders who commit certain drug crimes, break drug treatment rules or violate parole.
# Substantially shortens parole for certain drug offenses; increases parole for serious and violent felonies.

Financially, this breaks down as such:

* Increased state costs potentially exceeding $1 billion annually primarily for expansion of offender treatment programs.
* State savings potentially exceeding $1 billion annually on corrections operations.
* Net one-time state prison capital outlay savings potentially exceeding $2.5 billion.
* Unknown net fiscal effect on county operations and capital outlay.

People see the "$460 million a year for drug offenders" and balk at it, but they don't understand that keeping a large number of non-violent drug users out of prison saves billions of dollars. I'm voting yes on this one.

"No" votes on 4 and 8 should be no-brainers...erm, but what is it called if you need a brain to vote in the correct direction? Brainers? Oh shit we're fucked.

[Tyche]

Four is a support for Darwinism if teen mothers are really trying to use unconventional abortion means and killing themselves. Plus, isn't it a liability to do any serious medical work on a minor without consent? Not saying it's right, but I wouldn't want to be the one administering an abortion to a minor with nor parental notification.

#8 I don't give a shit whether they can or they can't.

[Charla]

I actually have heard a discussion about prop 2. A chicken farmer was on NPR letting us all know they'd have to cut their chicken population in half if it passes, because there just isn't enough land in the world for every chicken to be able to spread their wings at once. Also, it reminded me of the Man Show sketch where Adam Carolla got in a veal calf box.

Solely from the perspective of the public good, I still fail to see how "discouraging" abortions would be a good thing. Asking a girl to be crucified by her parents before getting one therefore fails to strike me as a good idea.

Tyche: Darwinism is all well and good until we've got a future gang member to worry about.

[aurik]

Four is a support for Darwinism if teen mothers are really trying to use unconventional abortion means and killing themselves. Plus, isn't it a liability to do any serious medical work on a minor without consent? Not saying it's right, but I wouldn't want to be the one administering an abortion to a minor with nor parental notification.

There's basically laws that exempt abortion from the usual domain of needing parent's consent. This prop is trying to weasel out of that by forcing doctors to notify the parents and observe a waiting period before performing the procedure.

[zoobernut]

With regards to gay marriage:

We have shown in the past that separate but equal is not only unconstitutional but does not work, why do people think it will work now?

As soon as marriage became a government sanctioned and controlled thing religious groups lost the right to defend it based on their religious beliefs, it is no longer a faith based ceremony it is a legal ceremony.

How does a government sanctioned marriage detract from a full religious marriage?

[aurik]

With regards to gay marriage:

We have shown in the past that separate but equal is not only unconstitutional but does not work, why do people think it will work now?

As soon as marriage became a government sanctioned and controlled thing religious groups lost the right to defend it based on their religious beliefs, it is no longer a faith based ceremony it is a legal ceremony.

How does a government sanctioned marriage detract from a full religious marriage?

But they're going to teach our children to become FAGS!!

[Killerme]

With regards to gay marriage:

We have shown in the past that separate but equal is not only unconstitutional but does not work, why do people think it will work now?

As soon as marriage became a government sanctioned and controlled thing religious groups lost the right to defend it based on their religious beliefs, it is no longer a faith based ceremony it is a legal ceremony.

How does a government sanctioned marriage detract from a full religious marriage?

Agreeing 100% with you. I live in AZ and there's a similar prop on our ballots.

[Neosutra]

Because if balls touch then it's gay.

And if its gays are allowed to marry then gays will come into heterosexual's homes and do horrible horrible things to each other while the blue collar man of the house is forced to watch and masterbate. If allowed to marry, gays will perform lude sexual acts on the street every day, and america as we know it will be bombed by GOD himself. Didnt you people learn anything from katrina?! That was just a punishment for all the gay sex that New Orleans has every year.

But seriously, god loves everyone except gays. The entire bible is entirely focused about sharing the word of god and love and fucking up some homos on the way. Anyone that votes against this ban on gay marriage will go to hell.

Also, marriage is between a man in a woman! Why? Because I just fucking said it was. Adam and Eve not Adam and Steve!

Fuck the economy, fuck Iraq, fuck energy problems, fuck education, lets keep the gays from marrying.

Spoiler: show

Please god dont let anyone think im being anything other than sarcastic here

[archibaldcrane]

But they're going to teach our children to become FAGS!!

This is seriously what one of the "Yes on 8" commercials leads viewers to believe.

Let me see if I can find it...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0PgjcgqFYP4

Yay there it is! Your little 7-year old daughter will be a carpet-munching dyke in no time. Aren't you concerned?

[Daimen-G]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0PgjcgqFYP4

Oh my God, I love this.

"Diversity? Tolerance?! IN MY CHILD'S CLASSROOM?!"

[Tyche]

There's basically laws that exempt abortion from the usual domain of needing parent's consent. This prop is trying to weasel out of that by forcing doctors to notify the parents and observe a waiting period before performing the procedure.

I understand that, but what happens when an abortion clinic performs an abortion and something happens to the child. I don't know what could possibly go wrong during an abortion (this should be emphasized), but (hypothetically) what if they somehow killed the mother during the abortion? Could you imagine the legal ramifications?

[Killerme]

This is seriously what one of the "Yes on 8" commercials leads viewers to believe.

Let me see if I can find it...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0PgjcgqFYP4

Yay there it is! Your little 7-year old daughter will be a carpet-munching dyke in no time. Aren't you concerned?

Oh dear god. They could learn. In schools.

[Melena]

there's another prop 8 yes ad using george carlin routines to emphasize the incorrect points. I love how they say churches will be forced to marry gays and lesbians when in actuality, only civil weddings at the city hall would be "forced" to.

[aurik]

I understand that, but what happens when an abortion clinic performs an abortion and something happens to the child. I don't know what could possibly go wrong during an abortion (this should be emphasized), but (hypothetically) what if they somehow killed the mother during the abortion? Could you imagine the legal ramifications?

Aside from being liable for any possible malpractice, which is true even if they have parental consent, no legal ramifications by law.

[archibaldcrane]

I understand that, but what happens when an abortion clinic performs an abortion and something happens to the child. I don't know what could possibly go wrong during an abortion (this should be emphasized), but (hypothetically) what if they somehow killed the mother during the abortion? Could you imagine the legal ramifications?

That's actually why this used to be called "Sarah's law" - a 15 year old was killed getting an abortion.

Look, there's nothing pleasant about abortion or the situations in which it needs to occur. It's not an entirely safe procedure (what is?), and some of the arguments in favor of parental notification are very, very valid.

But requiring a girl to be at the mercy of abusive parents who are finding out that she's a (in their eyes) "whore" isn't a situation I think kids should be put into. If my future daughter gets knocked up at 15 and wants an abortion, I'd want to know as a parent so I can help her deal with it, but part of being a good parent is letting your kids know that when things get really fucked up you will be there for them, and actually making them believe that. If my daughter can't tell me she's gotten into a serious situation like a pregnancy, there's a bigger problem then the fact that she's pregnant.

Kids should tell parents about things like this, but if they feel they can't, then forcing them to either do so or hide their pregnancy/circumvent legal abortion isn't the way to go. That's the situation this law puts kids into.

[Kuya]

I wonder why it hasn't become particularly obvious that keeping people who want to marry their own sex is pretty much like not letting people of different ethnicities marry, or just changing the name to anything other than marriage so they can't have what the others have; it's a symbolical rejection of rights. It's kind of silly, even if i don't like marriage.