Ranger Questions

[Tsuki]

Has anyone (VZX /nudge ^^) conducted conclusive tests regarding Rapid Shot/Snapshot DoT gear vs Standard Ranger TP gear that considers the implementation of the final two snapshot merit inceases?

I did some searching around the BG forums as well as a few others, and what i've taken from the research so far is that:

(Most of this stuff comes from older posts i found, many of which were made by VZX; and largely post RNG repatch)

1) Rapid Shot has a very good chance of processing but the amount of time it reduces from the shot can vary; It may reduce the shot's delay by half.
2) VZX states that meriting snapshot may be moot because the delay at the end of the shot called period of "free" time while waiting to shoot again is not affected by this trait and that this is the biggest factor in limiting our DoT.
3) On another forum(perhaps alla, not sure), pre all the newish rng updates it was stated that wearing gear that enhances rapid shot, particularly af2 body, wasn't worth it in terms of DoT and possibly yeilded lower results or equal to other equipment choices for the slots.

I'm basically just looking for some clarity here on the above mentioned posts. I have access to most of the enhances "snapshot/rapid shot" gear available, i think the only peice i'm missing is the new helm from WoTG SCNM (why, oh why did it have to be the barbut Q_Q) those being: RNG AF2 Body, AF/AF+1 Hat, 5/5 Rapid and Snapshot merits.... and for the sake of mentioning it: Jalzahn's Ring but i'd rather not include that due to its situational nature. So if i'm the one that must do the testing then i have no problem doing that but i'd look forward to some insight as to how to go about getting the most accurate results ^^.

I think it would be unrealistic to hope by wearing such gear and using merits in this way, rangers could produce comparable DoT to other melee jobs, but i'm hoping we could see a boost in our overall performance and get some use out of af2 body ^^; also, wouldn't it be nice if we were given enmity decreases in some manner so that when we hopefully do all this extra Dot, we hopefully dont pull so much hate and therefore remain victims of pissy melee's with lost TP or annoyed tanks?

(I originally posted this in the randomer questions thread but I think it wooshed there...)

[Hoshiku]

we had this discussion on KI about a month ago. i believe the final verdict was under no circumstances will af2 body ever outdamage osode and if you're wearing af2 body for the -enmity run. the other conclusions were that af1+1 head is not worth it for the rapid shot alone but that the other stats on it are very nice as well and that zha gho's barbut trumps all for dps.

[Tsuki]

we had this discussion on KI about a month ago. i believe the final verdict was under no circumstances will af2 body ever outdamage osode and if you're wearing af2 body for the -enmity run. the other conclusions were that af1+1 head is not worth it for the rapid shot alone but that the other stats on it are very nice as well and that zha gho's barbut trumps all for dps.

was this taking into consideration full merits? since the implication of snapshot 5/5? and can you link me? ^^ ty

[Hoshiku]

sure i can link it, the thing is though that snapshot and rapid shot are completely different traits. full snapshot merits won't do a thing for rapid shot rate (and rapid shot is tricky because it only has a chance to proc ... you have to pay close attention to the firing animation so you know exactly when you are able to fire again without getting the red too soon penalty). i think the conclusion from that thread was that with full merits/gear/trait you could have a chance at 25% rapid shot activation but that no one had ever experienced rapid shot trait every 1 in 4 shots (or anything close to that). Anyone ever tested Scout's Jerkin? - Killing Ifrit

As far as snapshot gear goes, the only piece rng can equip (in normal situations) is Zha Gho's Barbut, which is awesome even if you ignore the snapshot trait.

[Tsuki]

I honestly don't agree that rapid shot has a low chance for activation. Furthermore, I also don't feel that Rapid Shot is being fully understood by the majority of the people posting in that thread. I agree with VZX in that rapid shot procs in different degrees of speed. I want to see data; or to get help with methods of retrieving my own accurate data. The reason I'm posting this is not to see bickering and whining that this or that peice sucks. The reason for the Snapshot intruduction into this thread is because I am interested to see that at the end of the day; with full merits in both categories + af2body/af1head/barbut vs KO/whatever/whatever which ranger will pull off more shots in a given timeframe and if it will be equal to or greater/less than a typical ranger setup.

All I'm seeing is bitching and complaining based on data thats outdated at best, if there is any data shown and in most cases there isn't. I'm well aware of Spider-Dan's take on the matter, thank you for posting his conclusions here, but to be quite honest I'm not interested in hearing it. I've never seen any conclusive data based on anything he claims.

Nobody is suggesting that snapshot has anything to do with rapid shot traits. however one can't deny that with snapshot lowering your base delay fulltime at a set rate + the chance to then halve that already lowered delay with a full rapid shot proc is apealing, if we can replicate the same situation on a more regular basis. what's wrong with provoking this? and why does it always seem to inspire mindless bashing with little to no data to back it up?

Also, like stated in my OP(did you even read it ;_; ), I'm well aware of what the barbut does. Its only a shame it has to be the barbut and not the yagudo hat

[Mytiwar]

As it stands right now, barbut is pretty fucking rare, so if you have it my thought is that you go out testing it.

And what you're unsure aboot is rapid shot activation rate, not really snapshot. It is also obvious that barbut is better for tp than any other head piece so I'd suggest not testing snapshot gear and rapid shot gear at the same time but separately.

[Hoshiku]

I did read your OP but you didn't do a very good job of explaining what you wanted to know. If you want to see who gets off the most shots in a given period of time then yes you can look at snapshot and rapid shot together, however rapid shot and snapshot are not linked in that full snapshot merits won't do anything for rapid shot activation rate.

[Tsuki]

however rapid shot and snapshot are not linked in that full snapshot merits won't do anything for rapid shot activation rate.

I never said anything of the sort...I'm sorry I thought that was a given?

As it stands right now, barbut is pretty fucking rare, so if you have it my thought is that you go out testing it.

And what you're unsure aboot is rapid shot activation rate, not really snapshot. It is also obvious that barbut is better for tp than any other head piece so I'd suggest not testing snapshot gear and rapid shot gear at the same time but separately.

This is getting largely offtopic in the OP I state that I do not have the Barbut. There shouldn't be posts here about specifically that and nothing else >.<; Also, i'm not confused about anything ty.

assuming accuracy isn't an issue; and for argument's sake we'll say enmity isnt an issue either... The RNG with the most shots off should directly = the RNG with more weapon skills = the higher dot. Is it so hard to get some accurate data or a method to obtain that data? to show if using this gear that benefits the two traits turns out to be more shots in the longrun? I am getting a little frustrated on bandwagon people telling me and others alike that oh kirins osode is the best for this that and the other thing and lets just completely ignore the logic in the theory that if we can produce more shots in a shorter amount of time that we gain TP at a faster rate therefore potentially WS more times. yay kirins osode gives us 15dmg higher per shot; without looking even to the possibilty that potentially we can wear af2 body among other gear to reduce out delay (snapshot) and possibly make the shot go off faster (rapid shot) and come out with more shots in the end.

I think I'm too samurai for you guys this thread isn't advanced. Its not difficult to say either "Yes I know of some data on exactly this posted HERE." or "No, i haven't seen any data with results on something like this, but you could figure it out for yourself accurately by doing this and this etc..."

[Hoshiku]

The thing you're ignoring is that str and ranged attack make a big difference in how much damage a ranger does per hit. As far as setups go, I think you'll get the best benefit from a Store TP setup (you can get a 6-hit build with skadi legs + rajas + brutal for bow or just skadi legs + rajas for xbow) and you'll probably want to focus on finding enough accuracy to make that setup work with meat or enough attack to make that setup worth using sushi. I don't think you're going to find any parses with the new snapshot merits added in but if you'd like to transfer to asura i'd be happy to parse against you.

[Tsuki]

The thing you're ignoring is that str and ranged attack make a big difference in how much damage a ranger does per hit. As far as setups go, I think you'll get the best benefit from a Store TP setup (you can get a 6-hit build with skadi legs + rajas + brutal for bow or just skadi legs + rajas for xbow) and you'll probably want to focus on finding enough accuracy to make that setup work with meat or enough attack to make that setup worth using sushi. I don't think you're going to find any parses with the new snapshot merits added in but if you'd like to transfer to asura i'd be happy to parse against you.

I'm not ignoring anything. If i listed every single possible variable relivant to this post it would have been a mile long. I didn't get into storeTP stuff because while relevant again, it takes away from the bottom line. I said Assuming accuracy isn't a factor and assuming enmity isnt an issue i want to know Is:

A) Using a snaphot/rapid shot enhance setup will produce more shots over time vs not using that setup

B) If it does, how much dmg is lost, if any, overall from not having str in the body slot. or how much is gained from the additional ws's made overtime.

C) Comparison between both setups accwise on a basic scale and then also when one considers full ranged weapon merits etc. as well as using a 6hit setup without the added bonuses of acc from head/body slots.

the last part is what you're getting into now, which is completely uneeded at this point since you need to start at the most basic level to determine if something is viable. the first questions always has to be is it even possible; then we can get into viability discussion.

I appreciate the knowledge you've displayed about ranger; but I wish you can realize this is, well at least what I considered, common knowledge among RNG. Its not really adding to the discussion though

I Need a method to test this that produces accurate results; but I'm afraid I'm well beyond the point where I could ever produce the results that would reflect for the everyday RNG. short of lvling a rng mule i guess lol... I won't pretend I know the intricacies that go on when things like this are tested in game. But I don't think I can be accurate because im fully merited in archery/rs/ss. and i'd have to test everything against myself which was the initial plan, but I'd like some insight as to whats a good method of going about it.

[VZX]

Well... either you need perfect sense of timing the next shot after the 'cooling delay' or you program some kind of bot for repeating action to produce "accurate" result.
Auto attack in ranged attack is still a big issue when you're comparing the DoT.

P.S: I never actually tested rapidshot. The information was just mixed there when I tested ranged delay.

[Hoshiku]

I don't understand why you want to test this. All rangers should have full rapid shot and snap shot merits (there's nothing else to merit that enhances your damage full time). Hunter's Beret +1 is used in many TP builds and would probably be used even if it didn't add rapid shot. The only thing that might enhance damage is scout's jerkin (and that would be a very simple test). I don't think you can be accurate testing rapid shot regardless because you won't necessarily hit the perfect refire time (unless you have some sort of in game timer that goes on milliseconds and resets every time you see the firing animation on screen). If you want to write a plugin to tell rangers the exact perfect moment to shoot again that would probably improve the damage of the ranger community as a whole (for some more than others) but if you're asking of the question of do rapid shot and snapshot benefit rangers, the answer is already yes.

[VZX]

I don't think you can be accurate testing rapid shot regardless because you won't necessarily hit the perfect refire time (unless you have some sort of in game timer that goes on milliseconds and resets every time you see the firing animation on screen).

I think you can do some testing strictly on rapid shot proc rate or some kind of sort. But if you want to test if rapid shot build produce a better practical result than the other build, then the answer is like I've already said.
The difference is so minimal that even a slight error from the user can result differently.