Games that are not RPGs

[BRP]

When I say RPG, let's just assume I am accepting that jRPGs are RPGs and that w/cRPG is worthy of the title in the first place. So no reason to debate that. Just games that are flat out not RPGs because they belong other prominent genres.

-Kingdom Hearts (just about any) - Action/Beat 'em up
-Fire Emblem - "SRPG" aka Turn-Based Strategy.
-Fallout 3 - FPS-Adventure
-Dissida Final Fantasy - Fighter

These four are about the strongest examples that come to mind. If Kingdom Hearts is a RPG then so is Devil May Cry (3). Well, that's not all I have to argue with, but really it has none of the traits of any type of RPG outside "leveling" and "stats." These are essentially the same thing only the first is deeper way of implementing the second(although not always better).

See the things about stats is that every single game has them. Ryu's jab does a certain amount of damage, Ryu's roundhouse does a certain amount of damage. Each of Ryu's moves has its own speed(and length/priority) and recovery. Each gun of Call of Duty 4 has its own stats. Most games have Health Points, even if it is just "2." Hell, Call of Duty 4 even has MP! Only it is called "Ammo."

Stats in dungeon and dragon are numbers to be used with the rules in the game. Well, all games have rules. Only in videogames these numbers are usually invisible, or the rules they interact with are. (RPGs usually have the visible numbers because they are purposely flawed in order to mimic table tops' crunch. The idea is that they would be based on dice rolls rather than dexterity because that's how table tops do it.)

Can anyone make an argument why any of these games should be called RPGs? Especially Kingdom Hearts.

Seems like if you have the Square Enix brand you become a RPG no matter what. Why doesn't Capcom get that kind of treatment? Too many quality games?

Spoiler: show

These four examples also have threads in our obsolete RPG forum.

[Charismatic]

Shut up.

[BRP]

This isn't spam, you should tell me why I should shut up at the very least.

[Charismatic]

Maybe because this thread serves no point other than to start a retarded argument that won't go anywhere.
How about that?


I actually agree with you here but I can see that nothing will come of this thread.
Nothing good anyway.

[Shuemue]

It's BRP, he thinks people give a shit about his petty whining.

[Viq]

It's BRP, he thinks people give a shit about his petty whining.

Oh the ironing

[BRP]

It's BRP, he thinks people give a shit about his petty whining.

It's not whining, but then any sort of opinion can be shaped into whining on the internet. Also this can't be petty considering it is about genres in a videogame forum.


This isn't even intentionally baited for flames. The last two threads I made were basically looks at gaming as a whole(or rather the gaming industry and media) and they didn't turn into flame wars. And those were much more critical.

[Charismatic]

I don't see how it's not.
You've stated an opinion and that's it.


What you've posted doesn't really leave much room for anyone to do anything other than a) Flame you or b) Post "I agree."
I don't even understand where you were going with this.

[BRP]

You can disagree without flaming. Like saying that one or more of those games are RPGs. That's actually exactly what I asked in the OP. You could also attack the reasoning despite agreeing that the four I mentioned are not RPGs.

[Charismatic]

You can disagree without flaming.

I agree that you can, but do you seriously expect that?


This.
This is why I said to shut up.

[Shuemue]

Oh the ironing

You have a problem with me now too eh? Join the queue chump.

[Dezzimal]

What would you say are traits of any RPG? Zelda: OOT doesn't have stats/leveling from a D&D standpoint, so we can't include that.

Story driven
You control one character or a party for the majority of the game.
Often fantasy or sci-fi themed.
Character/party evolves or gains power throughout the course of the game.


Its a bit more difficult to define what it is, rather than just saying look at that, that is what it isn't!

[BRP]

I could see it happening. Again, not even as critical as the previous two threads.

This thread did attract flames, but it's mostly shue basking in his glory.

[fantasticdan]

A list/debate of completely subjective opinions on the semantics of what is or isn't an "RPG" could be really interesting, come on guys.

[BRP]

What would you say are traits of any RPG? Zelda: OOT doesn't have stats/leveling from a D&D standpoint, so we can't include that.

Story driven
You control one character or a party for the majority of the game.
Often fantasy or sci-fi themed.
Character/party evolves or gains power throughout the course of the game.


Its a bit more difficult to define what it is, rather than just saying look at that, that is what it isn't!

Yeah I would certainly argue any Zelda game isn't a RPG. Numbering the qualities you give...

1) I don't think a (single-player) RPG has to be story driven, but one that is not is bound to fail. This is because RPGs tend to be really dull when it comes to mechanics. Although I wouldn't say there is not a market for powergamers.

2) I don't think this a quality for or against it.

3) Setting really doesn't either. It's more of a trend I think. I mean you got a game like Earthbound, I don't think anyone would deny that is not a jRPG. Most table tops are Sci-Fi or Fantasy so most RPG games turned out that way. There are plenty of mundane table top games too, but very few get iconic status.

4) This is a quality that is common enough that you could come to expect it, but I don't think it should ever be a deciding factor. Getting rewarded is an important part of almost any game and this is just the most popular way of doing it. I expect more non-RPG games to follow this. Looking at CoD's mulitplayer for example. The success of MMOs is bound to have an effect too.

[Charla]

How about this:

I think character development through experience points and gaining levels or a functional equivalent is what defines an RPG. I don't remember leveling in DMC, but I do remember leveling in Disgaea (which may or may not be similar enough to Fire Emblem). Now, there are ways around the 'experience point' paradigm (such as the skill systems in EVE and so forth) but it's the same idea with a different name and different mechanics.

As for your four examples, I would call KH an RPG, but not Dissidia (from what I've seen of it so far), and I can't really be sure about the other two. Mostly, I think there are more multi-genre and cross-genre games than people usually think.

[BRP]

I was actually referring to Devil May Cry 3's styles. Maybe I should go and edit that in.

[Ivaden]

Out of curiosity, BRP, what would you consider Indigo Prophecy/Fahrenheit? To me, I wouldn't consider it an RPG, but I also wouldn't consider it action/adventure.

[Wintermute]

Out of curiosity, BRP, what would you consider Indigo Prophecy/Fahrenheit? To me, I wouldn't consider it an RPG, but I also wouldn't consider it action/adventure.

With a better sound-track it might pass for a Bemani game.

[Beckwin]

action-RPG?

also it seems a real stretch for fallout3 to be anything but an rpg just because it's in first person and you can shoot in real time. are Elder Scrolls no longer rpgs?

RPG is a pretty broad genre and it's ok to label the sub genres. basically anything with controlled character growth, story and character driven game, detailed world, etc. the RPG label comes from how dominant those aspects are; thus why even though Grand Theft Auto shares many similar traits it's still considered action/adventure primarily because the focus is on the gunplay and driving with those aforementioned traits just providing a framework (it also lacks detailed character stats/growth/equipment/etc). but it wouldn't be out of place to say that GTA has an RPG influence.