China's Charter 08

[Gwynplaine]

Despite a lot of bad news in the U.S. and elsewhere, there's been some good news emerging from China. This last December, a manifesto called Charter 08(click the link to read it) was published. The charter calls for political reform and a western-style government. In it are provisions for things such as a brand new constitution which is beyond violation, property rights, separation of church and state, freedom of speech, and freedom of assembly, among other things.

Despite the obvious risk of being arrested and imprisoned by the government, over 300 Chinese intellectuals signed their approval for the document. It didn't take long before two of the charter's authors were arrested, while 70 other original signers have been summoned or interrogated by police. Their media has also been forbidden to interview anyone who has signed the document and blogs and websites related to Charter 08 have been shut down.

Even so it has begun to grow in popularity. Although it began by being signed by prominent intellectuals, it is now catching on with ordinary citizens attracting over 8,000 signatures to date.

The charter itself may not ever be used as a guide for Chinese political reform, but it's growing popularity is a powerful symbol of an emerging unrest in modern day China. On top of that, the Tuidang "Quit the Party" movement is causing citizens of China to leave the state Communist party like never before. According to this story, over 50 million Chinese quit the party in the month of February.

All of these things are drawing international attention. Will the new sense of rebellion culminate in a new Chinese government, or a new Tiananmen square? People around the world have their eyes on the situation in China to find out. I wouldn't endorse everything put forth in the charter, but as it stands today it is a vast improvement in the face of dwindling Chinese Communism and an encouraging sign of reform.

If you don't read any of the other links in this post, at least read the third page of this one which is rather inspiring:

Tang said in an interview that her fear turned to anger after she noticed that her blog entries and other references to Charter 08 kept being deleted by censors. One night, she said, she was hit by a great sadness that she did not have freedom of expression. So she took action.

"If me, a little frightened person, signed it, then maybe others will feel inspired," she said.

Before her blog was shut down entirely Jan. 13, the comments section was filled by online friends who said they had signed Charter 08. Tang counted 17 so far.

"I also signed," one person wrote. "I cried when I knew Xiaozhao had cried. I wasn't moved to tears by her tears, but I cried out of frustration and helplessness." Another saw hope in the censorship: "They wouldn't have been deleting posts in such a crazy manner," he wrote, referring to Chinese authorities, " if they were not scared." A third person said he "prepared my clothes right after signing my name. I am ready. I don't want to go to jail, but I am not afraid of going to jail."

Tang said she, too, is ready to accept the consequences of signing: "I know exactly what may happen to me since I signed my name, but I am not afraid anymore. It is my right to express my choice to an idea by signature and I won't give up my rights."

[0ni0n]

US styled democracy is too soon for the inchoate capitalism in China. I love democracy but also hate to admit that for a developing country whose first priority is economics growth, democracy will only be a disservice. Just look at China's adjacent neighbor India, the world's largest democracy. It is stymied by layers of red tapes so badly that for years its economic growth hovered around 2%, called the "Hindu Growth" by economists. What China needs a party that can make hard, unpopular choices that will better the country in the long term. That, political continuity and stability will also be beneficial, election every 4 China is unrealistic and potentially harmful for the country as a whole. However, I do agree that the prohibition of freedom of expression is a sign that the Communist party engages in self-delusion.

What these Chinese did was courageous, but I think they could have gotten at least 1 million signatures first before releasing the document. Also by obscuring the names of those who drafted the petition (the organizers), they could have eluded arrest.

[Kuya]

I can't help but cringe whenever i see the phrase western style democracy. It always makes me feel like someone is going to hit me over the head from over the shadows with a bat that has freedom written on it.

[archibaldcrane]

How is this good news? All the signers are getting arrested, there's only 8,000, and China has over a billion people...

Sounds like a real shit-show to me.

[Elvis]

Anyone here know a lot about Chinese politics? My perception of China is that it has a ton of internal problems but is an emerging superpower. I think that's the general consensus though, ya?

[aznmajiktaru]

Well...don't know much about politics in china but really, when you think about it, 1 billion people all going in different directions all at once can't really be a good thing ya? I'm all for your freedom of speech and shit but with the population density being so close, even just a handful could cause a lot of trouble. Worlds not all black and white and democracy really isn't the end all system to all political systems.

Sure china needs work but getting a complete overhaul seems a bit too soon. In the economy today, I think it would be better for them to sort out their other shit first; like corruption, production standards, standards of living, etc. Shit I'm chinese and I'd have to think twice about something made in china lol ;x. Right now china is an emerging superpower, sure, but this is only based on the fact of the sheer amounts of people that live in china and nothing else lol.

[Deftscythe]

If you can find a torrent or something, Ted Koppel did a special for Discovery last year called "People's Republic of Capitalism." It didn't go heavily into the politics of China, but more into daily life there. It was about how the world sees China, but mostly about how Chinese see themselves and their country and what their economic progress means socially. Really interesting stuff.

[Gwynplaine]

How is this good news? All the signers are getting arrested, there's only 8,000, and China has over a billion people...

Sounds like a real shit-show to me.

Well, certainly the government's response is NOT good news. The good part is that they are slowly cultivating a healthy attitude of criticizing and questioning the same government with a sense of rebellion. On top of that their situation has drawn new world-wide attention and so the onus is on the government to shape up or face shame and embarrassment in front of everyone.

1 billion people all going in different directions all at once can't really be a good thing ya? I'm all for your freedom of speech and shit but with the population density being so close, even just a handful could cause a lot of trouble. Worlds not all black and white and democracy really isn't the end all system to all political systems.

What does that even mean? It sounds like you're saying "I'm all for freedom and human rights, except if there's a lot of people, then it's dangerous". Huh? A person has an individual right to freedom of speech, property rights, religion etc. whether or not any person or demagogue grants their crumb of approval. And also whether or not a person is alone or among 6 trillion others. A high population doesn't strip someone of their rights, that has to be the most unintelligible argument I've heard in a long time.

Furthermore, if the Chinese government hauls someone off to jail for criticizing their policies then denies them from seeing their family or lawyer that is as "black" as it gets.

I think it would be better for them to sort out their other shit first; like corruption, production standards, standards of living, etc.

Well guess where that corruption is stemming from. The government and the policies that are necessary for corruption to thrive. Production standards are an individual choice made by whoever creates a product so it's kind of silly to say that should be some kind of group priority.

[Osede]

Even thought I'm chinese (but not from china), but I can tell that it is very hard for any chinese to become good politician and with these any kind of politics.

Sadly and true, the overall chinese can be categorize as:

greedy and selfish.



Also, the main problem for china is that, over 80% of the citizen are still very under educated, that actually sometimes it is better for them to follow government's order instead of straight go into capitalism.

[0ni0n]

Even thought I'm chinese (but not from china), but I can tell that it is very hard for any chinese to become good politician and with these any kind of politics.

Sadly and true, the overall chinese can be categorize as:

greedy and selfish.



Also, the main problem for china is that, over 80% of the citizen are still very under educated, that actually sometimes it is better for them to follow government's order instead of straight go into capitalism.

Are you trolling or do you genuinely believe that most chinese are greedy and selfish? If it's the latter, then I am astounded by the level your ignorance.

Also, according to United Nations Educational, Scientific and Cultural Organization (UNESCO) Institute for Statistics (UIS), China has over 90% in literacy rate and a human development index of 0.849 as compared to US's 99% and .968. I am not sure how you derive the conclusion that 80% of the citizen are still under educated.
Education Index - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

[GRT]

When there's economic troubles, people will call for reform, democracy or otherwise.

These "intellectuals" aren't being smart about a political system, instead just taking an opportunity to rile things up. Despicable, if you ask me.

[Kerberoz]

The rest of the world sucks China's collective cock because they're afraid of hurting their own economies. In reality, it's an extremely fucked up place, most of the citizens are ignorant and brainwashed to a far more frightening degree than anywhere else, there are no basic human rights, they contribute more pollution to the world than any other nation without even receiving a slap on the wrist, and they cause more extinction and rape the environment more than the entire rest of the world combined. Although japan isn't much better on that front, GG hunting whales in 2009...

Can't actually complain though, or your political career is over and you get DDOS'd by 200 million chinese youth who see you as the devil for speaking bad about CHINA NEW EMPIRE NUMBER ONE.

http://66.221.121.71/kerberoz/china4563456456456.jpg

[Gwynplaine]

When there's economic troubles, people will call for reform, democracy or otherwise.

These "intellectuals" aren't being smart about a political system, instead just taking an opportunity to rile things up. Despicable, if you ask me.

What is with the silly folksy arguments being posted here? If "riling things up" means calling the government out on their decades of blatant rights violation then yes they absolutely are. It is not "despicable" in any sense, it is long overdue and welcome.

And as I understand it the charter is not a reaction to any one particular event, economic or otherwise so I don't know why you think that.

[aznmajiktaru]

shrug it's nice to talk about freedom of speech and right and what not, sure they're all great things and I wouldn't want to lose them. Doesn't change the fact that with so many people living together you need to be responsible for what you say and do. It's very nice to be able to say what you want but what if what you say gets taken to heart by someone else. What if those 8,000 people weren't just signing a petition but all prepping to be the next guy fawkes and tried to kill all the "corrupt" politician a la akumetsu style.

Sure the example is extreme, but it's a very real reality. You may find the fact the china is oppressive and tyrannical to be disgusting and I agree it's shitty and they could do a better job handling their shit, but by the same token it'd be more scary having allowing all those people to do w/e they want. It may turn out ok but more likely than not it won't. Most chinese people are pretty timid about making big decisions, it's just how they are, and that usually tells you a lot about the people who do make decisions. I'm sure there's a bunch of good people out there but more often than not they're swayed by greed easily.

I had to do a paper on chinese business a while back and I went through a bunch of NY times articles and more than half of them were about how fucked up china is. There was one where they were doing counterfeit medicine that was harmful to people and with enough pressure china passed a standard for making shit, but problem was there was so many plants in china doing it that even with them closing plants down daily there were still thousands of them out there. Just a couple months ago they had that problem with the milk formula killing babies off.

With so many people there the greedy people will almost always find ways to make money and exploit people. I don't believe corruption comes from the government rather than chinese culture it self. Chinese culture is all about building relationships for business or otherwise. I went with my dad, who's got a plant in china and gets contracts to manufacture shit, to one of his business meetings with some new guy. Place they went to had the ground floor as a disco/night club and second floor a karaoke room with hostess who come in and drink with you. The whole night they didn't do anything but drink sing and play games with the hostesses, I never even heard so much about talks about business, while the next meeting wasn't much different they at least discussed something.

I'm sure there's a good bit of corruption going on with not wanting shit to be passed by taking politicians out to dinner and what not as well. It's just in this culture, it's much easier for corruption to grow in the name of building good relationships. While I knock that as the main reason of corruption I also can't deny that once their relationships are established their business dealings usually last for a very long time and become pretty profitable. Back during 9/11 kmart defuncted on a contract they had with my dad and they applied for bankruptcy. It took my dad about 2 years to get out of debt but his partners never once pressured him to return the money he owed because they knew it was due to kmart going belly up as well.

Anyways that went on for a bit too long lol. Point is china's got a shit ton of problems but I don't believe changing into a democracy will solve anything as much as tweaking the system now to make it work for them. In a perfect world we'd all be specializing in groups and trading with each other and no one would be poor too, but ya gotta make do with what ya got.

[GRT]

What is with the silly folksy arguments being posted here? If "riling things up" means calling the government out on their decades of blatant rights violation then yes they absolutely are. It is not "despicable" in any sense, it is long overdue and welcome.

And as I understand it the charter is not a reaction to any one particular event, economic or otherwise so I don't know why you think that.

Are you really that naive?

Or maybe you are just as brainwashed as people claim the Chinese are.

Freedom, democracy, human rights are all great ideas, too bad in reality it's not the top priority in any kind of government function, no matter how any country's government may claim that they are. Instead, it's their citizens' standard of living that they constantly seek to improve to keep society stable and solidify their control.

Learn the difference between collectivism and individualism, take a deeper look at how socialism actually works, maybe actually go to China for a week and see and talk with people there. "Happy living and happy working" is a poor translation of a Chinese saying, but it describes what most Chinese people care most about when it comes to their government and social structure. And under their government, it's being realized like never before in 5000 years of Chinese history.

I'm not saying democracy won't work or even make the country better, but disrupting social order to meet that end is THE most senseless thing to do, and frankly, whoever does it obviously has got other motives and/or ambitions. That is despicable, please have these people hanged before more people are murdered for stupid ideals like they were in Tiananmen Square.

Oh and I bet you never paid any attention to history classes. Never in any attempts of drastic government reform has it ever been simply because of ideals. EVERY TIME it was economic crisis and extreme poor stand of living that were the main reasons why people rise up to overthrown and change their government or government structure. Sometimes that economic crises were caused by the government or political system. This time, it's not even remotely the fault of the Chinese government, socialist, communist, totalitarian, or whatever name you want to throw at it.

[Kerberoz]

I'm not saying democracy won't work or even make the country better, but disrupting social order to meet that end is THE most senseless thing to do, and frankly, whoever does it obviously has got other motives and/or ambitions. That is despicable, please have these people hanged before more people are murdered for stupid ideals like they were in Tiananmen Square.

Holy shit, wow....

[guartz]

I love the logic here. Hey, let's replace the government with a government. Things will get better!

[Kuya]

Oh you anarchist you.