Thief Sneak Attack: Slow

[noodles355]

A lot of Thf's pump their SA sets with hecatomb pieces, for the obvious reason that the Str+Dex makes for a powerful Sneak Attack.

But no one seems to ever look at the Slow+ on these pieces. Sneak Attack, unless stacked with a WS is still a normal attack round afterall.

I'm just wondering about the worth of some Heca pieces vs other options that do not carry the slow.
For example: Let's take a combo of Heca Hands/Legs/Feet/Head for SA and compare them to another option such as Enki Hands/Legs/Feet/Ass Bonnet.

The first gives us 20DEX 24STR 32Att and 30% Slow (Does it cap at 25% like Haste gear? or can it go as high as 30%?)
The second set gives us 16DEX 8STR 8Att and 2% haste.

There's no doubt which is the more powerful set, but comparing them side by side, you get:
4DEX 16STR 24Att against 32% Slow.

Assuming you use SA as soon as it's up, and do not stack with a WS, would the extra damage per SA gained from the 5Dex/16Str/18Att still outweigh the 32% slower attack for that one round against this alternate setup?

If in this instance it doesn't (say due to the strength of Heca Subligar), how would it go as single piece comparisons?
For example Heca Cap vs Ass Bonnet: 11Str for 9% slow (Same DEX)?

Edit: This whole post is assuming unstacked SAs used whenever timer is up (like in a merit situation).

[Thorny]

use enkidu, fuck hecatomb

[Despain]

use enkidu, fuck hecatomb

This.

[Tits]

I seem to recall that the dex modifier for SA (and parallel-the agi modifier for TA) only mattered during the triggering of the JA. Is this incorrect?

[Phraust]

I use to stack Heca on SA a long time ago until one day someone here on BG (sorry don't remember who ; ; ) Actually did the math and showed you'd actually do more damage SA'ing in your haste gear and getting the extra hits 'unslowed' than you would stacking hecatomb.

Its so hard to pass up those bigger numbers though. But going from +22 Haste to -30 Slow is a huge jump in speed, one that isn't made up for in the burst damage the gear provides.

[Despain]

I seem to recall that the dex modifier for SA (and parallel-the agi modifier for TA) only mattered during the triggering of the JA. Is this incorrect?

This is very incorrect.

[noodles355]

So for the 5 Heca slots then, are you suggesting:
Heca Cap: SAWS and WS, but Ass Bonnet for SA?
Heca Mittens: For Shark Bite or Capped Acc WS/SAWS, Enkidu's Mittens for uncapped Acc WS and solo SA?
Heca Subligar: Better than Enkidu's Subligar for everything? Or Enkidu's better for solo SA?
Heca Feet: WS combinations, Enkidu's for solo SA?
Heca Body: Is WS only anyway.

Edit: With what's been suggested so far then, would it even be worth putting in full haste gear for SA/TA...? Like Rap over Dragon Harness and Turban over Bonnet...?

[Phraust]

So for the 5 Heca slots then, are you suggesting:
Heca Cap: SAWS and WS, but Ass Bonnet for SA?
Heca Mittens: For Shark Bite or Capped Acc WS/SAWS, Enkidu's Mittens for uncapped Acc WS and solo SA?
Heca Subligar: Better than Enkidu's Subligar for everything? Or Enkidu's better for solo SA?
Heca Feet: WS combinations, Enkidu's for solo SA?
Heca Body: Is WS only anyway.

Edit: With what's been suggested so far then, would it even be worth putting in full haste gear for SA/TA...? Like Rap over Dragon Harness and Turban over Bonnet...?

Personally I do the following:

If I can stack SA or TA with a WS I use (of the gear in question, accessories excluded):
Hecatomb Cap
Dragon Harness
Hecatomb Mittens
Hecatomb Subligar
Hecatomb Leggings

If I cannot Stack SA or TA with a WS I use:
Hecatomb Cap
Hecatomb Harness
Enkidu's Mittens
Hecatomb Subligar
Hecatomb Leggings

For Raw SA(which is damn rare):
Haste gear + Dex Accessories.

For Raw TA(again, rare):
Haste Gear + Agi Accessories + Rog. Armlets +1.

Seems to work pretty good for me personally.

[Nekio]

I use a mix of Haste and DEX/AGI for standalone JAs.

[Chen]

I use to stack Heca on SA a long time ago until one day someone here on BG (sorry don't remember who ; ; ) Actually did the math and showed you'd actually do more damage SA'ing in your haste gear and getting the extra hits 'unslowed' than you would stacking dex.

Its so hard to pass up those bigger numbers though. But going from +22 Haste to -30 Slow is a huge jump in speed, one that isn't made up for in the burst damage the gear provides.

anyone know the link to this thread?

[Phraust]

anyone know the link to this thread?

Corrected original post, Stacking Hecatomb, Not Dex.

[noodles355]

Right, well I guess I'll keep Enkidu x3 + Ass bonnet for solo SA. Maybe it's worth having 2 SA sets, the second for things like HNM where you're running in for the SA, not generally meleeing it...

But for a merit-style solo SA (and solo TA infact) would you use Raparee+Swift Belt over Dragon+Warwolf or Denali+Scouters for those two slotts? (And infact, Turban over Ass or Denali Bonnets)?

[Raylinn]

I remember a post about the math behind this showing that on unstacked SA/TA on merit level mobs you are better off stacking haste and putting dex into other slots.
May have been on someones blog though.

[dawdr]

There are a few pieces out there that do offer some haste and relevant stats at the same time, like Skadi's Visor with 3% haste, 4 dexterity and agility, and 6 attack, or Enkidu's Leggings with 2% haste, 3 dexterity and agility, and 4 attack. Also probably worth thinking about using the Mirke Wardecors for your body if you've got the Dual-Wield augments and are subbing Ninja, of course. It's probably also worth considering how it would work with X's Knife, where you're getting more bang for your buck as you stack more into the abilities.

I do remember there being a thread about it that linked to someone's Livejournal but I cannot for the life of me remember who it belonged to. I think that it came out in the end that it was best to swap to a non-slow dexterity build for Sneak Attack, but this was probably about a year or so back and my mind may have gone fuzzy.

[Raen Ryong]

I've often toyed with the idea of a "speed" SA and every time I've tried using different sets for it, it's ended up parsing lower. If you could use two sets based on the occasion, it would be ideal but personally I stick to my STR/DEX heavy one.

The LJ Dawdr is referencing showed that +Slow is nowhere near as crippling as you would expect as the "opposite of haste" iirc which lends further credence to not bothering if the difference between the pieces is large enough.

That said, it's still worthwhile to consider the haste vs the slow, but not if you're sacrificing too much in the way of offensive gains.

This question has been bothering me for a long time too <_>

[Pendulum]

releenaseraph: Optimizing Sneak Attack

and

releenaseraph: If the rules of the world we're living in change, are we still living in the same world?

Are the LJ entries on this subject that I've seen.

[Max™]

Delay
Delay in TP gear
Delay in Hecatomb SA gear
Delay in Neutral Haste/Slow SA gear

You are normally swinging at ((Delay*.8 )*.8 ) in 20% Haste/Suppa/DW, and do (Dmg) per round.

So let's say 10 rounds at 262 (178+150) Delay for 2090 Dly.

For simplicity assume that you do 100 per round, so in 2090 Dly you drop 1000 Dmg. Say an SA in Tp gear adds 100 Dmg. Now let's put one round without haste gear in: 2148 Dly, and say you added 200 Dmg for that one round. Then put in one round in 30% Slow: 2226 Dly and say it adds 350 Dmg for that round.

2090/1000 10 rounds
2090/1100 10 rounds with an SA for +100 Dmg
2148/1200 10 rounds with 0% Haste SA for +200 Dmg
2226/1350 10 rounds with 30% Slow SA for +350 Dmg

2090/209 = 10, 1100/100 = 11
2148/209 = 10.27~, 1200/100 = 12
2226/209 = 10.65~, 1350/100 = 13.5

So in 10 rounds with a 200 Dmg SA in TP gear, you do 11 rounds worth of damage.
In 10.27 rounds with a 300 Dmg SA at 0% haste, you do 12 rounds worth of damage.
In 10.65 rounds with a 450 Dmg SA at 30% slow, you do 13.5 rounds worth of damage.

It isn't exact, but you get the idea.

Note, if I'm WAY off on how much a heca'D SA does (I may very well be), that changes things a lot.

If you did 100 per round, and 250 with heca SA, that's 10.65 rounds for 11.5 rounds worth of damage.

[Eaglestrike]

I remember a post about the math behind this showing that on unstacked SA/TA on merit level mobs you are better off stacking haste and putting dex into other slots.
May have been on someones blog though.

This is what I do.

I have these sets of gear for my THF: TP, MS, DE. I'm always in my TP set except for right before a WS, when I switch to a WS set for whichever one I'm doing.

[byte]

I agree. Quite often I miss SA or TA (without WS) because the mob moves before my ridiculously slow Heca hit goes off.

[TybudX]

Quite often I miss my TA because the ridiculously slow PLD moves at the last seco... wait, you mean 'Slow %' like on gear? My bad.