Preliminary Idea Mining Thread for a WoW MUGEN Project

[The Stig]

(apologies to mods if they don't want this thread here but I feel this is the most appropiate place)

I ask 2 questions which is highlighted in the middle of this post and at the end for the TL;DR people.

I've been toying with the idea of a MUGEN game using World of Warcraft for a while now. I've played around with some things using Final Fantasy XI models before, but that ran into several complications with "required" animations and such (FFXI lacked "knock down" animations and jumping, and such), and the graphics were a bit more advanced to capture (in terms of frames) which unless done perfectly resulted in tacky looking creations (this can be witnessed somewhere in the media forum for FFXI on BG. Although tacky, it worked! This is due to the crazyness of it though but the creator was obviously aware and took shortcuts). At this stage I feel I am ready to make some sort of attempt at it, so I pose 2 questions which is highlighted in the middle of this post and at the end for the TL;DR people.

Brief Background
For those that are unaware, MUGEN is an engine that allows you to create your own 2D fighting games. Within the community people have created creations that fall into one of the below categories (from most popular to least popular):

Clones - 100% clone of a console/arcade character. For example, many people strive to make an "accurate" (using game specific mechanics) character. These mechanics are usually mined from game data files (roms/ISOs)

Custom - Taking a console/arcade character and giving it original mechanics or mechanics taken from other games; I've created Dragonball Z characters with Guilty Gear mechanics before, for example

Original - completely original graphics/sounds; a crowning example would be the late Reu's Dragonclaw character, which features original graphics created from a 3D renderer which was then "ripped" into frames/sprites for MUGEN use. Before his death he had 2 other characters planned, including a Samus!

Full Clone/Custom Game - Making a "full game" of the above 3 categories (my definition of full game is usually 8 characters and above). Full clone would be what it says on the tin, full custom is usually fan made projects, i.e. Capcom vs SNK 3; many projects (this will inevitably include mine), fall into the trap of planning something huge and then procrastinating for 5 years -- I've been there, done that --, and fall apart. Other factors include real life, hard drive crash (this was a prominent excuse back in 2000), and people joining the "team" but not doing anything productive

"Bizzare" - It's possible to manipulate the use of "stages" (backgrounds) to make a platformer, shooter (space invaders or R-Type style, I believe I've seen a Time Crisis/House of the Dead style one before too), scrolling beat-em-up games and even applications if you want. But this is extremely rare and takes a significant amount of effort.

About Me
I was quite active, although not as active as some creators in publicly releasing creations but privately (as experiments) until about 2005 (from 1999). Many of my "fellow" creators died due to Real Life or MMORPGs or lost in interest ; I've kept check on the community though and have not left it yet. Not too long ago an actual new version of the application came to surface from the previously thought dead creators. This new version changes how some things work.

Although my knowledge is still intact I may have to learn the new programming style. If I conclude it's taking too much time I'll use the previous latest edition so I can carry on using my retained knowledge. Worst case scenario the game will run in 320x240 resolution but thanks to WoW's low quality models and graphics it should scale quite well down to that size in comparison to FFXI's models.

Purpose of this thread
To idea-mine or get some opinions on representation. It's too early to decide on mechanics or anything for now; anything said below is a high level assumption. Although I can straight out now say nothing is that impossible (with the exception of online play if I go with previous MUGEN edition, I think new edition supports online play if maybe buggy, not looked into it yet) it's possible to program a character and give it 3 stances and 3 specs which interchange during fight if I wanted to, it just takes time and adds extreme complexity to it. But lets not think of that yet.

There are 10 classes, and 12 races. I wish to currently stick to the default 10 races, excluding Worgen and Goblin, for they are relatively new, although I do not doubt they are missing animations, but just for the reason of simplicity.

Now I'm going to flat out say I know literally nothing of the lore (except Lich King teaming up with Spiders). Therefore, I was wondering which race would represent each class best, according to lore?

Secondly, which TIER of armor (I wish to stick to tiers only for they kind of define the class best) would represent each class best? I've already decided T10 for Death Knights and no one will change my mind. I've not toyed with the model viewer enough yet to go through alllllllll the tiers, and I technically started the game when Tier 9 was the "first" tier to shoot for.

Paladins only --> Which shield looks the coolest/best?

NOTE: As I am only idea harvesting at the moment please don't expect this project to evercome to see the light, as it is highly dependant on my time and how polished and complexed I want it to be.

SECOND NOTE: I personally detest midget characters. This includes Dwarfs, Gnomes, and Goblins, Tarutarus. I also personally find anything less than humanoid-ish hard to play or look at. Unfortunately this dislike extends to most of the horde faction except Blood Elves. So don't be surprised if in order to get this project running in the end I end up littering the game with Blood Elves, Night Elves, Humans and (female) Dranei only (for it is my source of motivation. No point in working on something I don't enjoy) =p -- also the midgets will have smaller collision boxes

THIRD NOTE: I had special considerations for pet classes and decided that programming a playable pet along with a character might be a bit out of scope for me, not without extensive trial and error and thinking of the logic. Therefore I've currently set on the mind that Hunters will be able to call on their pets like assists/strikers in Marvel vs Capcom and King of Fighters respectively (to help in their combos) and will (omg) melee!

Random Throw In Note: I don't recall on playing a fighting game that had a character which extensively relied on ranged attacks and never going up close (not to mention this will also result severe in balance issues). For all purposes of progress, if I feel that if I cannot come up with anything creative for Priests, Mages and Warlocks (Druids can be in kitty form) I will also drop them out. Although some ideas that popped into my mind as I write this now is maybe I can give Mages 3 stances, so they will melee with their swords (I think Mages can use swords?) and infuse them with the power of Fire, Arcane or Frost (along with associated attacks). Also I will only use WoW as a base guide on representation but will still retain some elements of WoW in it, this will not stop me ripping off other games where I feel appropiate. It's a fan project afterall =p

Some other note for reference: I've mentioned animations early. I'm going to disable crouching for sure as there are no crouch hit and get hit animations. I'm not aware of any jump attack animations also, except a Warrior's Heroic Leap but never used it from my own perspective, only witnessed others. Dranei (female) do jump a little when they perform a special attack but that's all I've seen, so aerial attacks might be severely limited or none-existant. As for "blocking" attacks I think each race has a blocking animation for when using a shield, I simply strip that out and remove the shield as a blocking animation, unless I find something better.

Misc Info Dump Notes just to lay it down while I write this:

#DOTs are possible, but will not utilise it as much. Maybe some poison here and there
#I list weapon types here as preferred weapon types. They do not actually do anything to gameplay (i.e a 2 hander will not hit harder than 1 hander)
#Keeping characteristics simple until I get a base/template done

Warrior - Will wield a gun/throwing object, large array of melee moves, single 2 hander or dual 2 hander

Paladin - 1 hander only, possibly option for 2 hander, will whip out shield when blocking (this may look weird so I will see if I can work around this) for increased damage reduction (maybe), Exorcism Hadoken (haha), holy power infused moves

Rogue - Fast, weak melee attacks, high mobility, teleport style moves similar to Shadowstep ; if anyone wants a real comparison, think Chipp Zanuff from Guilty Gear

Death Knight - 2 hander, ice and unholy based projectiles/attacks, use of Death Grip as like a telekinesis attack (think Stonecore last boss's Force Grip), Ghoul assist for super moves

Shaman - I seen Shamans use fist weapons in game often, perhaps making this "character" the class to melee with hands only, mix some lava bolts/lightning bolts in as projectiles

Druid - Kitty form only. I hate (the look and idea of) bears. Similar to rogue but use of biting/clawing and pounching to deal damage, but lacking ideas. Not sure of animations, never played one, will experiment in game

Hunter - Dual Wield sword/axe specialising in ranged attacks, able to call on a pet to assist, will use gun (because guns are just that cooler)

Mage - As described above, infuse weapon with Arcane, Frost or Fire power, with associated attacks.... throw cookies at enemy...I dunno XD

Priest - N/A (not without it getting complicated)

Warlock - N/A; I suppose making the Fel Demon as the playable character with its master as an assist (will jump in and shoot fireballs etc) can be appropiate, but otherwise I lack proper ideas

#System might be Devil May Cry-ish, focusing on simple button commands (although this might be too complex for some WoW players....?). I guess if I want I can add an "easy mode" where all attacks are performed by simply pushing one button and you'll do a predefined rotation of combos... if anyone ever unlocked Devil May Cry's "Easy Automatic" mode will know what I am talking about. But yes, simple commands to chain attacks together to definie your own rotation -- and given the limited animations, probably a 3 button setup

#Class resource bars adds more layers of complexity, I might drop these entirely in favour of a plain old super bar rather than a class specific resource system

#Final Note to self: might not include Kitty Druid, Mage, Warlock or Hunter if it gets complicated, for all purposes of progress. I rather not be stuck with 1 thing and therefore not progressing at all

Final final final notes
I do not need help, reason being is that I am lazy myself and if I ever just decide to drop it, it will be dropped (RL, shit happens, etc, Raid)
Please don't get excited
I will do what I can
I will consider all ideas if anyone feels like chirping up but if X person wants something desperately implemented and will cry to me about it if I don't take it in, go make it yourself
It will be done when it is done
Do not expect it to be done
This will probably be severely imbalanced game at first
Any testing, should it get far, will be held within this forum only and maybe released to the sharks in the MUGEN community for feedback; we're far more mature here
To work around limited animations the end product might look a bit crude here and there
I will not program gigantic characters (yet) -- so no Deathwing or equivalent
TL;DR v
I was wondering which race would represent each class best, according to lore?

Which TIER of armor (I wish to stick to tiers only for they kind of define the class best) would represent each class best? I've already decided T10 for Death Knights and no one will change my mind. I've not toyed with the model viewer enough yet to go through alllllllll the tiers, and I technically started the game when Tier 9 was the "first" tier to shoot for.

Paladins only --> Which shield looks the coolest/best?

These 2 questions are so I can capture the appropiate graphics. Should be a day's job per class if I focus on it properly once I decide the appropiate zoom/camera angle.

[Falaras]

I only read the TL;DR but for Paladins the only way to go is Human with Tier 2 (Judgement). It's generally accepted as the staple of paladin awesomeness even though I like T6 better. As far as shields go thats harder to say as everyone likes different things, Bulwark of Azzinoth is probably one of the coolest shields blizz ever made so thats an idea.

For mages: Gnome race. Tier is a lot harder and probably based on opinion, Tier 2/3 are pretty cool as is 6 except for the head piece.

[Plow]

Now I'm going to flat out say I know literally nothing of the lore (except Lich King teaming up with Spiders). Therefore, I was wondering which race would represent each class best, according to lore?

Warrior: Dwarf or Orc
Rogue: Human
Druid: Night Elf
Shaman: Troll or Tauren
DK: Human, Undead works since human is pretty much the only remotely viable race for rogue lore-wise, there's some major Orc dk's as well
Paladin: Human again lol... Dwarf I guess?
Priest: Human or Undead again >.>
Mage: Gnomes and Blood Elves
Hunter: Any of the races that can be it really, NE being the obvious choice but again they're gonna be your druids for sure
Lock: Orc

[Plow]

Oh, and for a Paladin's shield, you're gonna want the level 60 Grand Marshal (alliance) shield for sure.

Looks especially great with the lv 60 pvp set, which imo is the best looking armor set any class has had in the game period.

[Tonko]

lol
Shamans are Orcs
Thrall. End of story

[The Stig]

Well at least what Plow provided, most of them seem humanoid and not "disabled" in any sort of way! Seems good to so far (I mentioned I hate midgets)

Hunter: Any of the races that can be it really, NE being the obvious choice but again they're gonna be your druids for sure

Just a mention I know no one would've read the whole thread yet, I made a mention in the OP that the inclusion of Druids are floating between "hmmm" to "kitty" maybe, so their representation of them would be purely in their shapeshifted forms. So that I'm not fussed really.

My images are filtered right now due to external people floating around, but Bulwark of Azzinoth is the "Riot Shield" isn't it? Someone showed me once but was a long time ago, but sounds familiar. With spikes. If so I'll probably go for it.

And don't worry about that "what looks best is based on opinion". What I am attempting to do is to get people who've played Vanilla/BC to pipe up with suggestions on looks because chances are I'll get a mini short list of what looks good according to people which will allow me to pick and choose based on how I feel/preferences.

[Plow]

Bulwark of Azinoth doesn't look right on pallies unless you're going LK gear which would just be weird. Bulwark of Eternity would be a slight improvement but still weird.

lol
Shamans are Orcs
Thrall. End of story

Garrosh: War
Rend: War
Kargath: War
Durotan: War (thrall's dad)
Draka: War (thrall's mom)
Orgrim: War

Even Eltrigg is a war.

Even of the like 4 major orcs that have been shaman, 2 either were locks first or became locks later, and one of those fights as a war but has dogs.

In comparison, like every troll ever was a shaman, as well as the vast majority of tauren.


Orc are to Shaman what Blood Elf are to Paladin.

[Plow]

oh and thrall is only half shaman

[Falaras]

I actually retract my vote for bulwark and agree that the GM shield is what you want. Bulwark is absolutely awesome and I disagree that it doesn't look right on Pallies but I completely forgot about the GM weapons. The 2 hander sword, 1 hander sword, and shield are some of the best weapon models blizz has ever made.

[Arcana]

IMO armour sets to shoot for:

Rogue T5
Priest T5/6
Warrior T6
Paladin T2
Shaman T1
Druid T6

thats just personal opinion

[Correction]

Rogue T2 or T3/T7 > T5 by a lot.
Shaman T8 is a personal favorite, I've always liked that 'rocks suspended over the shoulders' look.

[SamanosukeShiva]

Druid = kitty, Druid special attack = shapeshift to bear and maul

[Plow]

a druid in a fighting game would obviously be a kangaroo

[Arvin]

Shaman should either be in T2 or T6.

[The Stig]

Druid = kitty, Druid special attack = shapeshift to bear and maul

Thank you, that I've never considered XD . I will see how feasible it is to make a kitty first however, given the nature of it.

One set back I am facing right now is the model viewer's inability to show cata gear. Although the development release has cata gear in the database, it's only applicable to the US version, it seems. I am hunting the forums right now for a possible fix, as I would love to use cata boots, although some 264/ICC boots look good too, especially the Scourgelord theme'd ones but not enough of a selection yet.

[Plow]

do a moonkin druid and give it nothing but moonfires that shoot at different angles

[The Stig]

Haha, that would simplify things though! -- is that a reference to something? I can't help wondering. (not sure what their usual in game rotations are)

[Plow]

There didn't used to be many instant cast nukes at all, for any classes. Druids were infamous for just spamming moonfire in pvp because it's instant even though it was much better dmg to actually set up for other spells and let your moonfire dot tick.

http://img406.imageshack.us/img406/1...9011404tc5.jpg

was a popular joke when people were posting druid ui's