Determining Exact Synthesis Levels

[bruiser]

Edit: I originally said only weavers should post, but everyone should regardless of craft.

So I have a strategy that will allow us to determine exact synthesis levels for almost every item in the game. I'm sure I'm not the only one frustrated by the fact that everything says 1, 11, 21, etc.

For starters, you'll need to refer to this:

http://lodestone.finalfantasyxiv.com...sId=F&rankId=3

I'm using Clothcraft as an example because it's something I have that's really low. So here's the method:

1) By looking at the above referenced link, we can assume that all the items listed are in the rank 21-30 and are not of any other levels.

2) If you attempt to synth an item and you are too low, you will get an error message "You decide to wait until you are more skilled to attempt that synth", or something along those lines.

The key is to determine the exact level difference at which you no longer receive that message. Call this number D for Delta. If you then find out that at level X you received the message for a synth, and at level X+1 you do not receive the message, the synth is exactly level X+D+1.

Example before I explain how to calculate D:

Suppose we determine through the experiments described later that D=12. You are level 3, and get the error message when attempting to synth a certain item. You skill up your craft some more and reach rank 4, try the item again, and no longer receive the message. The synth is a level 3+1+12 = 17 synth.

So, how to calculate D?

What we need to do is, for a single tier (21-30, 31-40, etc) find 2 items whose minimum level to synth differs by exactly 10. The only way for this to happen is one of the items is a level 21 synth and the other is a level 30 synth. Then, you take the smallest of the two minimum level requirements, called M, and D = 21 - M.

I know for a fact Delta > 10. I know this because at Level 1 Weaving, I was able to attempt a Cotton Fent, which is *at least* level 11 (just from the fact that it's on the 11-20 list). I was not, however, able to attempt Cotton Socks, which is also on that list.

It's *probably* a safe assumption that that list is sorted in ascending order of difficulty, and since Cotton Socks are near the bottom only right after Cotton Fent, I think they are probably Level 12 or 13. This puts Delta at probably 11 or 12.

That's my initial guess.


What I need is the following:

If you have Weaving greater than or equal to 10 and less than 20, pick an item on the 21-30 weaving list, gather the materials, and try to synth it. Post back your rank at the time of your attempt, and whether you were allowed to attempt the synth. Note that you have to go ALL THE WAY to the point that the synth begins, i.e. there's no turning back if you're allowed to do the synth, so you will likely lose some materials.

What I'll do is update this post with the list of all items tried, along with the range of levels that still need to be tested. Don't bother attempting a synth if you see it on this list and your level is outside of that range. Once we know the exact point of transition, there will be no need to try that item again. Once we have 10 unique values, the experiment is over, and we know the value of Delta.

At that point it's just a matter of finding transition points for all other items in the game and then adding Delta to them to get the exact synth level. But that can be done without the need for collecting data from many people in a coordinated fashion, since anyone with the value of delta can compute synthesis levels independently.

I don't expect this to be done quickly since people will hesitate to waste money / time finding materials and attempting synths which they're probably going to break anyway. But hopefully some people will contribute to this so we can figure this out, as it will be extremely useful information.



Weaver 11-20
[Test Range: 1-4] Cotton Yarn (Succeeded at 5)
[Test Range: 1-4] Cotton Halfgloves (Succeeded at 5)
[Test Range: 2-9] Cotton Socks (Failed at 1)


Tanner 21-30
[First Synthable: 12] Buffalo Leather Strap


Blacksmithing 21-30
[Test Range: 8-12] Iron Claw Hammer Head (Failed at 7, Succeeded at 13)
[Test Range: 1-12] Iron Fish Hook (Succeeded at 13)
[Test Range: 1-12] Iron Axe Butt (Succeeded at 13)
[Test Range: 1-12] Iron Nails (Succeeded at 13)
[Test Range: 14-19] Brass Head Knife Blade (Failed at 13)
[Test Range: 14-19] Brass Gladius Blade (Failed at 13)
[Test Range: 14-19] Brass Javelin Head (Failed at 13)
[Test Range: 14-19] Iron Javelin Head (Failed at 13)
[Test Range: 14-19] Baghnakh Talons (Failed at 13)
[Test Range: 14-19] Iron Gorge Hook (Failed at 16)
[Test Range: 14-19] Iron Arrowheads (Failed at 16)



Edit: If you see various stats represented in the list above that aren't in any of the responses to this thread, it's my own tests that I just added without mentioning it.

Edit 2: I just realized that we can relax the restriction even more. Across all crafts, for a single tier we only need 2 items where Minimum level to synth differs by 10.

So this means that if we find a Leatherworking item in the 21-30 tier where M = 7, and a goldsmithing item in the 21-30 tier where M = 16, then we are done (16-7+1 = 10). In this case, D would be 21-7 = 14

They must both be in the same tier on the official site though.

[goodr]

Good effort on this. I have a r14 Weaver, so I'll contribute. I'll also try to note whether / how much these factors are involved:
- craftsmanship points
- facilities support
- leve

I agree that discovering the value of "D" will greatly help.

[bruiser]

It might be easier once people start having multiple characters. You could HQ tons of low level mats on one toon, then send them to your alt to test various synths. I might put this on a google spreadsheet or something, that would make it easier to keep up with. You could just Fill cells in black if the synth can't be attempted at that level, and in Yellow if it can. Then you only need to find the places where there's a black immediately adjacent to a yellow.

Edit: Also, maybe I shouldn't limit to just weaving 21-30, because for all I know there could be a disproportionately high number of smithers here. all crafts welcome to post, just attempt random shit from the crafting lists on the official website and post results.

[mdkuser]

Buffalo leather strap. Unable to attempt at 11, able at 12 ( in open beta)

[Ratatapa]

Use this site

http://ffxivcrafters.com/

Awsome because they keep updating what is confirmed or unconfirmed

[bruiser]

Use this site

http://ffxivcrafters.com/

Awsome because they keep updating what is confirmed or unconfirmed

Definitely a good site that I didn't know about, and I'll try to use it from now on when looking up recipes. But I'd rather not bring in unofficial sources at least for the purposes of this test. While the recipes may be confirmed, I seriously doubt any of the levels are confirmed, because literally the only way to confirm a synthesis level is to first determine the value of D, which can't be done without this experiment.

Also, by updating the information in the original post it is much easier to make the results manageable, because I can format it in such a way that instead of trying completely random items, you can try the items which are closer to finding the answer to.

On that note, all we really need to find is one level 21 item and one level 30 item from a single craft. So I would suggest trying a few items that are near the top of the list on SE's site, and a few items that are near the bottom of the list on SE's site.

[Ratatapa]

Just saying

I am weaver 24, on my site it says that canvas halfgloves are lv 25 Weaver

I tried 3 times at lv 23 failed them all. at 24 i'm 1/1

[bruiser]

Yea, I know what you're saying. I'd just like to avoid hunches and gut feeling and only go with hard facts and solid proof. Not that your experience was meaningless or anything, but I'd like to eliminate any guesswork.

[bruiser]

Also just realized that we need much less data than I originally thought. Only need to find 2 synths across all crafts with a minimum level to attempt difference of 10 (actually 9, since ranges are inclusive). Only requirement being that the official list has to have them in the same tier. So this definitely means that all crafts are welcome to post, because if we find a leather synth with M=7 and a gold synth with M=16 (for example) we're done, as long as those two are listed officially in the 21-30 tier.

Updated original post.

[goodr]

Just saying

I am weaver 24, on my site it says that canvas halfgloves are lv 25 Weaver

I tried 3 times at lv 23 failed them all. at 24 i'm 1/1

Yes, I believe the thread is simply trying to arrive at similar data using a more provable method that reduces biases and imperfect perceptions and experiences. Understanding the value of "D" will help contribute to understanding the experience you had.

[Purrrfect]

I don't think I would assume the lodestone list to be in ascending synth level order, SE is smart enough not to do that. Also, just to play devil's advocate, what if D is not static?

[bruiser]

I agree that it's not safe to assume that the synths aren't in ascending level order, but I don't think it's totally random either. I mean if you look at the list, the 'easier" stuff is on top and the "harder" stuff is on bottom, roughly speaking. So I think if all we're trying to do is find a level difference of 10, it's safe to target the tops and bottoms of the respective lists. Also, as mentioned earlier, it's more effective to target items that already have some data on them, since for those items we've already narrowed down the range somewhat.

Also, it's true that D not being constant is a possibility, albeit a remote one. Not that it would have been difficult for them to code it that way, but it just seems awkward and without reason. One thing that would guarantee that D is not constant is if we find a level difference of >10 among a single "tier" (including across crafts). If we don't find that to be the case, then it lends more evidence towards D being constant.

One thing I hope to accomplish with this, is that one a large number of synthesis levels are known, you could correlate this to experience gain. For example, if you are X levels under the item's level, your experience gain will be within a certain range. Once we know the actual levels of various items (still with the assumption that D is constant) we might be able to identify discrepancies on skill gain for certain items, so that like what we thought was a level 15 item might skill up more like a level 16 item. Something like that could also lend evidence towards a variable D. But even still, knowing the value of D with the assumption that it's constant is the first step.

[bruiser]

Figured out a trick to prevent you from losing mats. If you don't have enough crystals or shards to perform the synth, you will still get the "You decide to wait until you gain more levels..." message if you are too low to perform the synth, and if you are able to perform the synth you will get an error about not having the required number of crystals. The game apparently does the level check before it does the materials check.

So this makes it a totally risk-free strategy, and now the only hard part becomes acquiring high level mats even though you're low level. Just put all your crystals/shards onto your retainer, and synth away.

A lot of the mats you can buy from your guild shops like cloths / squares / nuggets / etc, so in a single tradeskill you can cover like 5-10 synths with only a small investment, with no risk of breaking anything. If they all fail, store the materials on your retainer again, then level up and try again. So hopefully that will get some people to try it out.

[bruiser]

Calling all blacksmithers

I did some testing of my own tonight, and feel more and more confident that SE's list is sorted in order of difficulty. I would try different crafts that I had at various levels, and ALWAYS when I found an item on the list i could synth, I could synth every item above it (except I didn't try ones with difficult mats) and could not synth any item below it.

With that in mind, I actually found a few random pepole to help me out by shouting. A level 7 blacksmither was unable to attempt an Iron Claw Hammer Head, the second item from the top. I was able to synth it at level 13. So the transition point is somewhere between 8 and 12, and it's more likely between 8 and 10.

A level 16 blacksmither was unable to attempt either a Iron Gorge Hook or Iron Arrowheads, the last 2 items on the list. This puts the transition point greater than 16 but less than 20. So any 17-19 blacksmithers could really help out here.

I hypothesize that between these 3 items we can get a level difference of 10, settling this. So what I would like is to see if any rank 8-12 blacksmithers could attempt a Iron Claw Hammer, and if any 17-19 blacksmithers could attempt Iron Gorge Hook or Iron Arrowheads. just put shards in your retainer and you won't lose the mats.

I shouted for like an hour, but could not find people with these exact levels. The mats are very easy, you can purchase them from the synthesis NPC at the guild for not too much money.

[goodr]

Good trick. Most will figure this out, but I also wanted to point out that an easy way to have a shortage of crystals is to put them up in your bazaar temporarily while you're doing testing.

Goldsmithing@13
Brass Earring: yes
Brass Ring: no
Silver Needle: no
Silver Fish Hook: no

Goldsmithing@14
Brass Ring: yes
Silver Arrowheads: yes
Silver Francisca Head: yes
Silver Choker: yes
Silver Needle: no
Silver Fish Hook: no
Silver Earring: no
Silver Ring: no
Silver Breastpin: no
Brass Dish: no

A few of these I wish I could try sooner, but did not have the mats.

[bruiser]

Thanks, I'll update the OP tomorrow. I'm especially interested in that Silver Francisca Head since it's so close to the top of the Goldsmithing list. I suppose I could use all my leves tomorrow on goldsmithing. That should get me to about 7, then I can test 7, 8, 9 myself.

[Enygma55]

Calling all blacksmithers

I did some testing of my own tonight, and feel more and more confident that SE's list is sorted in order of difficulty. I would try different crafts that I had at various levels, and ALWAYS when I found an item on the list i could synth, I could synth every item above it (except I didn't try ones with difficult mats) and could not synth any item below it.

With that in mind, I actually found a few random pepole to help me out by shouting. A level 7 blacksmither was unable to attempt an Iron Claw Hammer Head, the second item from the top. I was able to synth it at level 13. So the transition point is somewhere between 8 and 12, and it's more likely between 8 and 10.

A level 16 blacksmither was unable to attempt either a Iron Gorge Hook or Iron Arrowheads, the last 2 items on the list. This puts the transition point greater than 16 but less than 20. So any 17-19 blacksmithers could really help out here.

I hypothesize that between these 3 items we can get a level difference of 10, settling this. So what I would like is to see if any rank 8-12 blacksmithers could attempt a Iron Claw Hammer, and if any 17-19 blacksmithers could attempt Iron Gorge Hook or Iron Arrowheads. just put shards in your retainer and you won't lose the mats.

I shouted for like an hour, but could not find people with these exact levels. The mats are very easy, you can purchase them from the synthesis NPC at the guild for not too much money.

LV 19 Blacksmith here and I just tested what you requested. Iron Gorge Hook allowed to craft, Iron Arrowheads NOT allowed to craft.

[bruiser]

Wow. I looked at your information Enygma, and that actually solves the problem completely. There's no need to look at lower level items and find a level of difference of 10 after all.

D = 10

Here's the reasoning.

1) D >= 10 - I originally said that D > 10, based off the fact that I was able to attempt Cotton Fent at level 1, and with Cotton Fent being at least a level 11 synth, then I would have had to reduce my level below 1 (obviously not possible, but just talking theoretically) to find the transition point, hence making D > 10. But, I failed to consider that 1 could be the transition point. 1 might be the first level where that synth were possible, but with no way to test since you can't be level 0. In any case, it means that D might be exactly 10, so D >= 10.

2) D <= 10 - Iron Arrowheads are not synthable at level 19, so best case scenario is that the transition point is 20. But since they are on the 21-30 list, they cannot be more than a level 30 synth. So the largest that D can possibly be is 10.


Since D <= 10, and D >= 10, then D = 10.

It'll be a while before we can use this to determine the exact level of various items, but we can get 3 immediately:

Buffalo Leather Strap - Level 22
Brass Ring - Level 24
Iron Arrowheads - Level 30

And pretty close for a few more.

Iron Claw Hammer Head - Lv. 21-22
Iron Spear Butt - Lv. 21-22
Iron Sledgehammer Butt - Lv. 21-22
Iron Nails - Lv. 21-22
Iron Fish Hook - Lv. 21-22
Iron Axe Butt - Lv. 21-22
Iron Pommel - Lv. 21-22
Iron Gorge Hook - Lv. 27-29


To do this kind of test for every item in the game will probably take a really long time, but at least we know D early in the process so we have plenty of time

[goodr]

Excellent work!

Bruiser, can you work up a couple edge cases you would like for others to help with confirming the value of "D"?

[bruiser]

Well assuming D is constant, i think this is pretty conclusive. So I think any tests people want to continue doing to add confidence to D the value of D should involve increasing confidence that D is indeed constant. The best way I can think to do this is to try synths at the upper and lower ends of each craft's respective lists, and see if there's any two values that produce a level difference of >10.

If anyone has any thoughts about why the previous post does NOT prove that D=10 with the assumption that D is constant though, by all means I'm all ears