Atheists are just as bad as Theists

[Kuya]

Or not.

Here's a few quotes from an article on discrimination or outright violence against atheists around the world. The authors argument is that persecution of atheism is severe and a real problem around the world. He makes 6 main examples of this kind of persecution.

1. Alber Saber, Egypt.

Spoiler: show

Alber Saber, the 27-year-old atheist activist, blogger, and reported administrator of the Egyptian Atheists Facebook page, was arrested after a mob swarmed outside his home demanding his arrest for insulting religion. Saber was then attacked in prison, after a guard told the other prisoners what he had been charged with. On December 12 of this year, he was convicted of blasphemy, and sentenced to three years in prison. I would just like to point out: This is 2012. It is not 1633 during Galileo’s conviction for heresy; it is not 1692 during the Salem witch trials. It is 2012. And people in the world today, in 2012, are being arrested, charged, convicted, and imprisoned — for blasphemy. They are being arrested, charged, convicted, and imprisoned — not to mention attacked by mobs and assaulted in prison — for the crime of not believing in God, and for saying so out loud. (Pending appeal, Alber Saber has just been released on bail – a week after the bail money was paid.)

2. Alexander Aan, Indonesia.

Spoiler: show

In January 2012, Indonesian civil servant Alexander Aan was attacked by an entirely different mob, after he criticized Islam on Facebook and said he’d left the religion and become an atheist. Following the attack, Aan was arrested for insulting religion (i.e., blasphemy), electronic transmission of defamatory statements (i.e., blasphemy via the Internet), and false reporting on an official form. That last charge is loaded with horrible irony, by the way: Indonesians are legally required to register as one of six official religions … thus literally forcing people who doesn’t believe in one of those religions, including people like Aan who don’t believe in any of them, to lie.On June 14, Aan was sentenced. He is now serving two and a half years in prison.

3. Phillipos Loizos, Greece.

Spoiler: show

In September 2012, Phillipos Loizos was arrested in Evia, Greece, on charges of posting “malicious blasphemy and religious insult” on Facebook. His crime? Creating a Facebook page making fun of Elder Paisios, the late Greek Orthodox monk revered by many as a prophet — a page referring to Paisios as Pastistios, connecting him with the satirical atheist faux-religion Pastafarianism, and replacing his face with an image of the Greek beef dish pastitsio. Seriously. Aggravated Photoshopping, with intent to mock. Overzealous police officer? Maybe. But then why was Loizos not immediately released, with pleading, tear-stained apologies and a groveling request not to sue? Why, as of the release of the IHEU report on Dec. 10, is he still being charged?

4. Sanal Edamaruku, India.

Spoiler: show

A humanist organizer and a renowned skeptical debunker of supernatural claims — sort of a James Randi of India — Sanal Edamaruku is the president of the Indian Rationalist Association. He’s also the guy who, in March 2012, profoundly embarrassed the Catholic Church on national television, when he debunked a supposed “miracle” believed in by thousands by proving that a weeping Jesus on the cross was actually the result of a leaky drain. The Catholic Church, naturally, was profoundly grateful for this information, as it cares passionately about the truth and wants to be sure that any “miracles” it promotes are truly the hand of God…

…No, wait, That’s not what happened at all. In April 2012, a group called the Association of Concerned Catholics filed a complaint against Edamaruku with the Mumbai police under Section 295 of the country’s penal code… a complaint the Catholic Church didn’t officially support but also didn’t speak out against or try to stop in any way. The police, recognizing this complaint for the blatant absurdity that it was, laughed them out of the room…

…No, wait. That’s not what happened at all. The Mumbai police actually took this seriously. They issued an arrest, charging Edamaruku with “hurting the religious sentiments of a particular community.” The police haven’t dropped it, either: they have since gone to Edamaruku’s home in Delhi to serve the arrest warrant, and to demand information on his whereabouts. What’s more, they are denying him “anticipatory bail,” so if he submitted to the arrest he could do months of jail time before his trial. Edamaruku, unwilling to do months of jail time for first-degree debunking of fraudulent miracles, has fled the country, and is currently in hiding in Finland. (More information at the A Friendly Atheist blog.)

Please note here that — as in the Greek case — it is not Islamic theocrats or would-be theocrats trying to get atheists locked up for making them look bad. It is Christian ones. So in case you were going in that whole “this is just a problem of Muslim extremists” direction … yeah, don’t go there.

5. Fazil Say, Turkey.

Spoiler: show

Of course, sometimes it is a problem of Muslim extremists. If you know the world of classical and jazz piano, you might already know of Fazil Say: he is apparently widely renowned in that world. He is also an atheist. On June 1, 2012, he was arrested and charged with insulting Islamic values, via the fearsome and formidable medium of Twitter. The case is pending (it’s scheduled for February 2013): if he’s convicted, he faces up to a year and a half in prison.

He’s not the only one. Say’s arrest is just one of a series of recent legal actions in Turkey, targeting artists, writers and intellectuals for making less than entirely laudatory statements about religion and Turkish national identity. And if you’re thinking, “Oh, dear, another of those terrible Middle Eastern theocracies” — think again. The Turkish Constitution protects freedom of religious belief, guarantees equal protection under the law regardless of religion, and lists secularism as one of the Turkish republic’s fundamental characteristics.

Yeah. I know. My head is spinning, too. I keep thinking of Inigo Montoya: You keep saying “secularism and freedom of religious belief.” I do not think it means what you think it means.

6. Jabeur Mejri and Ghazi Beji, Tunisia.

Spoiler: show

Seven and a half years: that’s the prison sentence given to atheists Jabeur Mejri and Ghazi Beji in Tunisia in March 2012, for posting cartoons of Muhammad on Facebook. Beji got lucky, and got the hell out of the country: he is still being sought as a fugitive by Tunisian authorities. Mejri wasn’t so lucky. He is currently in prison — serving a seven and half year sentence. Think, for a moment, about how long seven and a half years is. In seven and a half years, a kindergarten child would almost be in junior high. In seven and a half years, an elm tree would grow from a sapling to over twice your height. Now, think about spending seven and a half years in prison. For posting cartoons about religion that the government didn’t like.

And these incidents are just the tip of the iceberg, a handful of the more egregious examples. They don’t include Mauritania, where leaving Islam means losing citizenship; Pakistan, where the government blocked all access to Twitter because of “blasphemous content”; Italy, where Minister for Foreign Affairs Franco Frattini called on Christians, Muslims and Jews to join together in the fight against the “threat” of atheism; Zambia, where the government requires Christian instruction in public schools; Poland, where pop musician Doda was fined $1,450 for saying that the Bible is full of “unbelievable tales”; Israel, where atheists or anyone else wanting a secular marriage have to leave the country to get married; the United States, where attendance at evangelical Christian events in the military is often mandatory; Sudan, where leaving Islam is punishable by death.

I wish I knew what to do about all this. I usually like to end my “alerts about outrages” pieces with a call to action: here’s whom to donate money to, here’s where you can sign a petition, here are the elected officials you can call or email. But this is bigger than just a one-shot call to action.

Whom can you give money to? Atheist organizations around the world; international atheist organizations; human rights organizations that recognize human rights violations against atheists as a real thing. Where can you sign a petition? Get on the mailing lists of a couple/few atheist organizations, especially international ones, and they’ll alert you when petitions are happening. (The International Humanist and Ethical Union would probably be a good start.) Who can you call or email? Your elected officials, especially on the national level, to demand that they treat human rights violations against atheists as seriously as they do any other kind. (Not that that’s such a high bar …) What else can you do? Speak out. Spread the word. Like I said, there’s a reason theocrats and would-be theocrats are scared to pieces of Facebook and Twitter…

But the first step, before you can do any of that, is this: Don’t pretend that this isn’t real. This is real. This is happening, around the world, at the hands of every major religion. Don’t dismiss it.

http://www.salon.com/2012/12/20/6_ou..._nonbelievers/

[Churchill]

notice how those are all 3rd world countries needing to be cleansed with bullets

[Kuya]

notice how those are all 3rd world countries needing to be cleansed with bullets

But first we gotta rain that justice on the theists in the homefront.

[Churchill]

you know i'm down

[MF Perm tha Fineass]

Being a vocal atheist is compared to being an evangelist zealot. These religious types really love to drum up the persecution card and false equivalencies.

[Churchill]

but if you do that it's like having sex with the devil

[thetruepandagod]

All i learned is that this is another thread expounding upon the greatness of the white man.

[Kuya]

All i learned is that this is another thread expounding upon the greatness of the white man.

Avatar and sig go well with this post.

[Grey Jorildyn]

Any country where you can be charged for "blasphemy" can go die in a fire. Is this the 19th century or something?

[ronin sparthos]

I don't see why you even linked all those countries knowing the ignorance of the majority of the people that live there. The concept of 'atheism' doesn't even register when they can't even settle on theistic claims and without getting their jimmies in a bunch.

Further, when the claim "Atheists are as bad as Theists" is made, it is usually referring to the online frothing at the mouth over the relatively passive "theists" that live in the West. Someone drops the line that they are spiritual which usually means they have no fucking clue what to believe anymore since they were either poorly indoctrinated or have come to reject parts of their religion due to outside sources and the response is to jump down the throats of those individuals doing little else than constructing an idea that atheists are nothing more than morons who assert across the board superiority for their lack of belief in any such gods. Does it sound familiar? Why it sounds just like those theists who are too busy peddling their faith to care about the individual concerns of the person with whom the discussion is being shared with.

It's even worse when some twat decides to drop something about religion being a fantasy when the topic wasn't even brought up. Yes, yes we get it. You're an atheist. What a hipster you are.

It's a matter of choosing the wrong battles to fight. Instead of going after the bigoted religious leadership and demanding to be better represented in bodies of leadership to prevent being marginalized like those countries you've posted, the atheist "community" finds itself too busy stroking its own cock with pseudo-theists and people who make shit of their own arguments by opening their mouths. Is it entertaining? No doubt, but such is the result of being free to choose your own path free of transcendent figures to keep people in line - it's like herding cats. My opinion is only as good as the next atheist and we're doomed to battle eternally over ideals while the theist zombies overrun the camp with their assured belief that X, Y or Z is the 'word of God'.

Should atheists rally around something? Well, we've seen groups try to do it. Humanist churches (hehe), the humanist manifesto and the like but that's the fun of being a hedonistic materialist, you're free to craft whatever you please and recognize it.

[Churchill]

Embracing science is hipstar

[ronin sparthos]

Embracing science is hipstar

The question is what your goal is as an atheist. Is it to win people to your side? To simply assert superiority? To start an intelligent argument? To troll people on the interwebs for personal amusement? Simply to apply a label to oneself? If it is to win people to your side then start with something like this:

Spoiler: show

http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d1...psfa19a532.jpg

Short, sweet and more importantly gets the point across without being an inflammatory asshole. Contrary to popular belief, being an asshole doesn't win neutral parties over.

[Ashmada]

In islamist countries, the most hated crime is apostasy. They don't like "people of the book" (christians and jews) much, atheists even less so, but at least just being an atheist can be somewhat tolerated, sometimes; becoming one is regarded as much worse.
Basically, the logic is that atheists are just idiots who haven't been taught the coran and sin through ignorance whereas a muslim that loses faith has no excuse.

I'm surprised (and strongly annoyed) at the greek case, though. This is the kind of thing one expects from medieval countries like Pakistan or the US, not Greece!
And positively flabbergasted at the indian case. It's not even a christian-dominated country, how the fuck does that catholic association command such leverage?

[ronin sparthos]

Never underestimate the nefarious powers of the Catholic Church.

[chiyio]

The question is what your goal is as an atheist. Is it to win people to your side? To simply assert superiority? To start an intelligent argument? To troll people on the interwebs for personal amusement? Simply to apply a label to oneself? If it is to win people to your side then start with something like this

Can't it be all those things? It really just depends on the context of the specific conversation and forum.

[ronin sparthos]

Can't it be all those things? It really just depends on the context of the specific conversation and forum.

It's an open ended question. Different people will have some combination of those responses, none of those responses or some other motivation.

[Kuya]

I don't see why you even linked all those countries knowing the ignorance of the majority of the people that live there. The concept of 'atheism' doesn't even register when they can't even settle on theistic claims and without getting their jimmies in a bunch.

Further, when the claim "Atheists are as bad as Theists" is made, it is usually referring to the online frothing at the mouth over the relatively passive "theists" that live in the West. Someone drops the line that they are spiritual which usually means they have no fucking clue what to believe anymore since they were either poorly indoctrinated or have come to reject parts of their religion due to outside sources and the response is to jump down the throats of those individuals doing little else than constructing an idea that atheists are nothing more than morons who assert across the board superiority for their lack of belief in any such gods. Does it sound familiar? Why it sounds just like those theists who are too busy peddling their faith to care about the individual concerns of the person with whom the discussion is being shared with.

It's even worse when some twat decides to drop something about religion being a fantasy when the topic wasn't even brought up. Yes, yes we get it. You're an atheist. What a hipster you are.

It's a matter of choosing the wrong battles to fight. Instead of going after the bigoted religious leadership and demanding to be better represented in bodies of leadership to prevent being marginalized like those countries you've posted, the atheist "community" finds itself too busy stroking its own cock with pseudo-theists and people who make shit of their own arguments by opening their mouths. Is it entertaining? No doubt, but such is the result of being free to choose your own path free of transcendent figures to keep people in line - it's like herding cats. My opinion is only as good as the next atheist and we're doomed to battle eternally over ideals while the theist zombies overrun the camp with their assured belief that X, Y or Z is the 'word of God'.

Should atheists rally around something? Well, we've seen groups try to do it. Humanist churches (hehe), the humanist manifesto and the like but that's the fun of being a hedonistic materialist, you're free to craft whatever you please and recognize it.

You've done it.

You've found a way to be even higher up your own ass than a white atheist.

[ronin sparthos]

You've done it.

You've found a way to be even higher up your own ass than a white atheist.

I'll take that as a compliment. How about getting to a point.

Isn't that what we atheists do? Use logic and reason? Well, use some logic or reason and mount an acceptable rebuttal.

[Kuya]

ITT: in a thread about atheists being arrested for being atheists, some guy is complaining about angry atheists on the internet.

[ronin sparthos]

ITT: in a thread about atheists being arrested for being atheists, some guy is complaining about angry atheists on the internet.

Again, get to a point and quit your pointless ad hominems.

The world is fearful of atheists because as luck would have it the world is full of deeply cultural or socially religious individuals who find the notion of being free of a God not only a personal attack but a cultural one as well. If you're intention was to educate us on this disturbing fact then bravo, the links need only give me more fuel for my personal dislike of what dogma does to people who are otherwise reasonable folk. Shall I link my trove of articles that show just how disgusting some theists can be with regards to the "them"?

The title of the thread says otherwise and makes a sarcastic claim that is backed up with the evidence of the aforementioned articles. What it means to say is "Theists are worse than Atheists? Look at all this shit that Theists perpetuate!" and so I responded utilizing my knowledge of western culture as I see it.

Atheists are attacked for being atheists in the same way that gays are still persecuted on a daily basis, blacks are still an underclass and income inequality leans largely towards a successful white populace when put in comparison with their browner counterparts. Should we do something about? Absolutely. My question to you is what your point is in this thread.