Greece's inability to own up to their mistakes.

[myreality]

Well not really surprising but Greece is completely avoiding owning up to their mistakes and have taken the blame game to the next level. I figured this might warrant its own thread considering that the rising party ideology is similar to that of the Nazi's and is gaining considerable influence.

Talked to a buddy of mine that is currently living there (who is a foreigner......Asian) and he is moving as soon as possible, just going to pick up and leave everything behind that he cannot take. Getting death threats by people who he used to call friends and is now afraid to go out of his house. I thought it was because he was his usual asshole self, but apparently its different over there since their meltdown.

An alarming consequence of Greece’s economic meltdown has been the rise of the virulently ultra-nationalist political party, Golden Dawn. In this week’s issue of TIME, we report on the group’s tactics and ideology as well as the political climate that feeds Golden Dawn’s anti-immigrant drive.

The group is led by Nikos Michaloliakos, 54, a small, paunchy mathematician with Brezhnev eyebrows and a perpetual scowl, who founded the movement in 1985. During an interview Wednesday with the private TV channel SKAI, Michaloliakos denied that the party was trying to push the country into the left-right divisions of the civil war that ravaged Greece after the end of World War II, declaring that the Greeks had to be united to face the economic crisis. He got angry when the Greek journalist interviewing him asked about the party’s Nazi links, dismissing it as “old mud” from 20 years ago. “We are nationalists, not Nazis,” he said, adding that the Greeks don’t care to rehash Nazi history and instead want to get rid of political corruption and illegal immigrants so the country can recover from the economic crisis. He claimed that support for his party will grow because Golden Dawn is not corrupt and identifies with common Greeks.

(MORE: A Kinder, Gentler Merkel Comes Calling in Athens)

And yet, Golden Dawn’s slogans, salutes, symbols and gatherings distinctly echo images and words from the Third Reich, says Dimitris Psarras, an investigative journalist who spent more than 20 years chronicling the party in his new book Golden Dawn’s Black Bible. “The leaders of this group don’t practice an ideology that is simply the loud ultra-nationalism practiced by other European far-right parties,” he said. “It is very clearly a Nazi group.”

Psarras says Golden Dawn has tapped into anti-immigrant resentment that has been slowly building since the 1990s when the first big wave of foreigners—Albanians—came to Greece en masse. As the economic crisis has stripped Greek institutions of trust, that resentment has metastasized into outright fear that is defining mainstream political and social debate, he said.

Indeed, Golden Dawn holds no monopoly on the idea that all undocumented migrants are menaces to society. Many of Greece’s leading politicians, including Prime Minister Antonis Samaras, 61, have said as much. Though Samaras, a patrician , Harvard-trained economist, has also described Golden Dawn as “neo-Nazi,” he has labeled undocumented migrants “the tyrants of Greek society.” He leads the conservative New Democracy party, the main partner in a fragile three-party coalition government that’s been governing Greece since June.

In Athens, where most of the approximately 350,000 undocumented migrants in Greece live, Samaras and other mainstream political leaders have accused them of spreading infectious diseases and contributing to the sharp rise in crime in the city center. Samaras has also said he’s concerned that the children of undocumented migrants are crowding Greek children out of state-run daycare centers. Ilias Panagiotaros, a Golden Dawn MP who represents Athens, goes even further and says he wants to kick out the non-Greek children. He’s already asked the Ministry of Interior for the names of “foreign infants and young children, by country of origin, who are in nursery school.” (The Ministry refused).

Many migrants say Greeceis now a hostile place for them. In Athens, gangs of vigilantes, many sporting the black Golden Dawn T-shirts, have attacked hundreds of immigrants in the last year, according to human rights groups. The gangs often single out the poorest immigrants, cornering them at night and beating them with brass knuckles, beer bottles, wooden bats–and in the case of Egyptian fisherman Abouzeid Mubarak, 28–thick iron rods. In June, 20 people broke into Mubarak’s suburban Piraeus home while he was asleep and beat him into a coma. In August, another gang stabbed a 19-year old Iraqi man as he walked in central Athens. Issa Ahmed Agboluaje, a slight, shy 20 year old from Ghana survived a similar attack by another gang in black this spring. “They put the knife in my stomach and said, ‘Get out of here!’” Agboluaje says, pulling up his shirt to reveal a four-inch scar on his belly. Like many immigrants, he said the Athens police ignored his complaint.

(MORE: So Far, The Euro Zone Likes The New Leader)

Even immigrants who have not been attacked sense the dramatic change in many Greeks’ attitudes. Jagwinder Singh, 38, a Punjabi Sikh and trained electrician from India, slipped out of the cargo ship where he worked when it docked in the nearby port city of Piraeus 16 years ago and then made his way to Corinth. He soon got a job at a factory that makes wood products, then received a work permit four years later. For 12 years, he worked long shifts, paid into the Greek social security system and supported his wife and two children. But a year ago, he lost his job at the factory, which downsized from 130 employees to 20. Now he says he faces angry stares when he collects his unemployment check. “For so many years, the Greeks were so kind to me and my family,” he says. “But now, these last few months, everything is different. People look at me with cold eyes. They call me a xenos (a foreigner), and say they will bring in Golden Dawn to sweep us all out of Greece.”

Human Rights Watch has documented the growing violence against immigrants in Greece and is beseeching the Greek police to step in. Jan Egelund, HRW’s Europe Director, says authorities cannot use the economic crisis as an excuse to look away from the violence. Europe, he says, must help—not isolate—Greece. “If we give up on Greece, this cradle of civilization, philosophy and humanism, how can we make progress in the Congo , or Afghanistan or Syria?” He adds, “Europe has to treat this not only as a border control problem. Europe has to see it as a systemic failure of protecting human rights of migrants and minorities.”

http://world.time.com/2012/10/31/rec...ece/?hpt=hp_t3

[test123]

His fault for being asian in a debtzone

[Kuya]

Inability to own up to its mistakes? So now crushing austerity isn't enough? Maybe we should ask them to give us the blood of their first borns too.

[Waraji]

As long as the real Greeks lay upon their doors the blood of a goat.

[Shenrien]

They should fight it out in the coliseum, that's why they have it around still I thought.

[Correction]

Whose mistakes? What mistakes?

[Tajin]

I'd take the hint and gtfo, not so easy with a wife and kids but still.

[ringthree]

You are surprised that utlra-nationalists rise during periods of economic turmoil?

[BaneTheBrawler]

They should fight it out in the coliseum, that's why they have it around still I thought.

You mean the Coliseum in Rome, Italy?

[Melena]

Inability to own up to its mistakes? So now crushing austerity isn't enough? Maybe we should ask them to give us the blood of their first borns too.

So after years of tax dodging that would make Romney proud, even more liberal benefits and retirement packages then pretty much any other nation, and your shocked the countries bailing them out are asking them to actually a: start making some cuts and b: start collecting some taxes? Hell I consider myself pretty liberal and I think the benefits the state I live in being paid out is way too unsustainable and I live in the state with the highest sales tax and one of the highest income taxes in the nation yet we're floundering in debt. So how do you think Greece should resolve it's debt problems?

[Correction]

So after years of tax dodging that would make Romney proud, even more liberal benefits and retirement packages then pretty much any other nation.

25% of greece's able-bodied population is unemployed. I think you might be overstating the tax dodging and 'liberal benefits' as the cause of the Greek economic collapse. The public sector is stuffed full of cronies and relatives of party elites and it's these people who suck the economy dry and aren't sacrificing, but this is a small enough group that it's not sensible to conflate them with all of Greece for the 'mistakes' characterization made in the OP.

[SwampdonkeyPLD]

Inability to own up to its mistakes? So now crushing austerity isn't enough? Maybe we should ask them to give us the blood of their first borns too.

European countries are spending more than they did in 2008. What austerity are you referring to?

[Melena]

25% of greece's able-bodied population is unemployed. I think you might be overstating the tax dodging and 'liberal benefits' as the cause of the Greek economic collapse. The public sector is stuffed full of cronies and relatives of party elites and it's these people who suck the economy dry and aren't sacrificing, but this is a small enough group that it's not sensible to conflate them with all of Greece for the 'mistakes' characterization made in the OP.

This was after the collapse and with the start of the austerity. Prior to the collapse though I read a few articles, one was from time rest were from random news sites like CNN going over the rampant tax evasion and public pensions that had people retiring in their mid 40's with full pensions and such.

[Kuya]

So after years of tax dodging that would make Romney proud, even more liberal benefits and retirement packages then pretty much any other nation, and your shocked the countries bailing them out are asking them to actually a: start making some cuts and b: start collecting some taxes? Hell I consider myself pretty liberal and I think the benefits the state I live in being paid out is way too unsustainable and I live in the state with the highest sales tax and one of the highest income taxes in the nation yet we're floundering in debt. So how do you think Greece should resolve it's debt problems?

Do you have any proof that the average Greek dodges taxes like a millionaire? If not, why make that statement?

When you talk about making cuts and increasing taxes, you're talking about millions of people ending up unemployed and spiraling into oblivion. People who probably have nothing to do with the tax dodging you're badgering about.

So when you tell me that Greeks have to pay for their "mistakes", not only are you talking about them paying for mistakes they probably didn't make (it's mistake of all of Europe for creating a system that treats all member states as having equal economic parameters), but the way in which the average Greek has to pay is with their jobs, their health and their safety. I consider myself pretty liberal, therefore i don't support destroying the lives of other human beings. Maybe you need to redefine what liberal means to you.

[Kuya]

I already made a post in another thread, about how unfair it is that Greek people have to suffer deteriorating mental and physical health just so Germany can make it look like it's not giving out free money to dirty, lazy southern europeans:

In fact, this whole EU rescue package is a political claptrap.

The German government wants to keep the EU in tact, since they benefit from it economically just as much if not more than everyone else in Europe, but Merkel & friends know that the bailout is politically unpopular to the German people, so they want to make it seem like they're not giving out free money to those filthy, lazy southern europeans. And so they attach back breaking austerity as a condition to the bailouts so Merkel can point at Greece and say "See? See!? The money we're giving them isn't free! It comes with the consequence of destroying their society!".

And somehow, with Greece having massive unemployment, outbreaks of suicides and crime, we're supposed to be mad at the Greeks for being so ungrateful. Am i supposed to blame the Greeks for lashing out? I know the German government can't be mad, because they're getting what they wanted, which is political expediency.

The fact of the matter is, this entire situation can easily be solved by giving European members (Greece, Spain, Portugal, Italy, etc.) funds so they can stimulate their economies and get out of a deflation that is only increasing the size of their debt. After the debt inflation issue is solved, then Europe can reform its monetary system.

It's an easy economic solution, but a politically difficult one, because States like Germany don't want to look like they're giving away hard earned nothern money to irresponsible southern europeans or else risk losing elections, which drags this whole problem on for much longer than it has to. In the mean time, crime and suicide go through the roof in places like Greece, because some people get a sexual thrill from watching the "bad guys" suffer.

[myreality]

Government is going down from its overspending with little to no oversight among other things. Start placing blame on foreigners for failure of governments ability to keep money in the banks. It's like what California and Arizona does with Mexicans.

Greece recession and debt problems even worse


Greece's draft budget for 2013 has forecast a deeper recession and worse debt problems than previously thought.

The economy is expected to shrink by 4.5% next year, and government debts to rise to 189% of economic output.

Greece held inconclusive negotiations with its rescue lenders on Wednesday over the economic reforms needed to release further bailout funds.

The government also faces opposition to the reforms from coalition partners and unions have called a general strike.

Finance Minister Yannis Stournaras held a conference call on Wednesday with his counterparts from the Eurogroup of eurozone finance ministers, as well as representatives of the International Monetary Fund and European Central Bank.

The German Finance Minister Wolfgang Schaeuble said afterwards that Athens still needed to do more.

"There is progress in the talks but there is still a lot of work to do," he said. "Time is tight."

The package under discussion includes spending cuts to be included in the 2013 budget, labour market reforms and the privatisation of state assets.

Ministers hope that a deal will be ready for formal approval at a Eurogroup meeting scheduled for 12 November.

Strike
Greek Prime Minister Antonis Samaras has warned that Greece will run out of cash next month unless it receives 31.2bn euros in loans from the EU and IMF.

He had claimed on Tuesday that an agreement had already been reached, but this was quickly challenged by his coalition partners and later denied by both the European Commission and the Eurogroup.

Mr Samaras' junior coalition partner, the Democratic Left, expressed concerns over labour market reforms that it said would weaken workers' rights.

Parliament had been due to vote on a full package of reforms, including the budget, on Tuesday, but this has had to be delayed a week in light of the Democratic Left's opposition.

The budget includes 13.5bn euros ($17.4bn; £10.8bn) of cuts.

Greece's two main trade unions have called a 48-hour general strike on 6-7 November to protest against the austerity package.

"The central aim and demand of the unions is the rejection [by parliament] of unacceptable, destructive and coercive measures imposed by the troika [the European Commission, IMF and ECB]," the GSEE union said.

Narrow vote
Mr Samaras is also seeking broader powers to privatise public services.

On Wednesday, parliament narrowly passed a privatisation bill that paves the way for the sell-off of state-owned utility companies.

The bill, which is one of the reform measures required by Greece's troika of lenders, was passed by a majority of only 148 to 139 - even though the governing coalition is nominally supported by 176 deputies in the 300-seat parliament.

Some deputies from the government's two left-wing junior coalition parties, Pasok and Democratic Left, voted against.

On Tuesday, the head of the Greek privatisations agency said that the target for total revenues from the sale of state assets - an element of its agreement with its lenders - had been lowered to 11bn euros by the end of 2016.


Surplus
The Finance Minister, Mr Stournaras, announced the government's latest growth and debt forecasts ahead of the vote.

He said that the economy is now expected to shrink 4.5% next year, instead of 3.8%.

If the forecast proves correct, it would mean that by the end of 2013 the Greek economy would have shrunk by a cumulative 22% since 2008, based on data from the EU's statistical office, Eurostat.

Unemployment in Greece stands at 25% of the labour force, while across the eurozone it was revealed on Wednesday that unemployment had risen to 11.6% in September.

Government borrowing is expected to reach 5.2% of economic output in 2013 up from 4.2%, and total government debt to hit 189% instead of 179%.

The upwardly-revised deficit forecast would still mark an improvement on the 6.6% figure expected for this year.

The expected overspending in 2013 is entirely accounted for by the cost to the government of meeting interest payments on its existing debts.

Excluding these interest payments, the government actually expects to run a small net revenue surplus equal to 0.4% of Greek economic output.

Haircut
Meanwhile, Thomas Wieser, who co-ordinates the Eurogroup of finance ministers, told German radio on Wednesday that the Greek government may be granted the extension of up to two years that Athens has asked for to implement its reform package.

A delay to spending cuts would necessitate even more borrowing by the government in order to cover its over-spending.

However, Mr Wieser said that this could be accommodated within the existing bailout programme.

He denied that it would be necessary for Greece to negotiate with its lenders a further partial cancellation, or "haircut", of its existing debts - something that has been backed by the IMF.

"In none of these rounds of discussions and negotiations was the word 'haircut' ever mentioned," he said.


There has been speculation that Greece may be granted further alleviation of its debt repayment terms, perhaps via lower interest rates and more time to repay, and this time including debts it owes to public sector lenders such as the European Central Bank or the Eurozone bailout funds.

However, Germany's Finance Minister Wolfgang Schaeuble has repeatedly opposed any cancellation of the money Greece owes to its bailout lenders, who ultimately include German taxpayers.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-20153875

http://ec.europa.eu/esf/main.jsp?catId=382&langId=en

[Pirian]

It's an easy economic solution, but a politically difficult one, because States like Germany don't want to look like they're giving away hard earned nothern money to irresponsible southern europeans or else risk losing elections, which drags this whole problem on for much longer than it has to. In the mean time, crime and suicide go through the roof in places like Greece, because some people get a sexual thrill from watching the "bad guys" suffer.

It goes even further than simply "Germany don't want to look like they're giving away hard earned nothern money to irresponsible southern europeans". Germany has no reason to believe that if they do bail them out then they will change their ways. You can say thing like "well then require them to be held to a standard in regards to their debt", but they already were. They lied about their debt ratios when entering the Euro, and they lied every year thereafter. What is really needed to solve this situation is a restoration of confidence, and that's not happening anytime soon.

[notorious bum]

Your first mistake was reading Time magazine and mistaking that article for actual journalism.

[Mazmaz]

ohboyherewegoagain.jpg

[Howie Roary]

immigrants being targeted mid-economic crisis and fear for their lives -- Time magazine isn't legit enough

everything is invalid



perhaps you should stick to FoD