View From The Bottom

[Terrance]

http://rpgvault.ign.com/articles/763/763050p1.html

Some interesting insights from a MMORPG designer. Part 1 of 2.

[Ryko]

wait for it...

[The Blackrose]

This is going to end well...

[Jeryhn]

http://i72.photobucket.com/albums/i1...n/nikegtfo.jpg

[Skjie]

It's bottom. It's even spelled right in the article you linked.

[Ryko]

It's bottom. It's even spelled right in the article you linked.

Ah there it is.

[Skjie]

It's bottom. It's even spelled right in the article you linked.

Ah there it is.

Sorry, I was going to do it sooner, but I started reading the article first.

grammatik macht frei

[Avelain]

FANTASY RPGS ARE A WASTE OF TIME?!?!?!

WHAT?!?!!?

NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO

[LinktheDeme]

wrong forum?

[Isiolia]

Actually the previous one was a bit more relevant, as it was a somewhat cynical, albeit accurate, description of MMOs...

[Tonko]

Post threads about GENERAL MMORPGs in the GENERAL discussion section.

Not the advanced FFXI section.

Also, don't forget to breathe, and look both ways when crossing the street.

[Tricen]

http://i72.photobucket.com/albums/i1...n/nikegtfo.jpg

Oh, LOL.

[Minions]

lol that guy just seems retarded to me. Prolly the same guy that drives 100 in a 50 to get to where hes going because his time's more important than mine.

[Septimus]

What a stupid article. "I don't like RPGs because I have to level up." Do you become a doctor straight out of High School? No. Do you become a CEO of a Fortune 500 company the day after you are hired to work in the mail room? No. Do you get a complimentary Black Belt when you take your first Martial Arts lesson? No.

Yeah, the level grind can get boring, but you have to crawl before you can walk before you can run.

[Iono]

Damn, I thought this was gonna be an upskirt thread

[archibaldcrane]

I thought it was going to be about dominant and submissive relationships.

[Terrance]

What a stupid article. "I don't like RPGs because I have to level up." Do you become a doctor straight out of High School? No. Do you become a CEO of a Fortune 500 company the day after you are hired to work in the mail room? No. Do you get a complimentary Black Belt when you take your first Martial Arts lesson? No.

That is not what he is saying. You've completely missed the point of the article.

Yeah, the level grind can get boring,

The purpose of a game is to entertain. If the players are bored then there is a problem with the game.

From a game design standpoint boredom is often a result of a game being too easy, while frustration because it's too hard. Level grind causes both, killing endless mobs is too easy and hence boring, and getting levels takes too long and is thus frustrating.

If something can be described as "a grind" then there is fundamentally something wrong with it being in a game that is intended to entertain.

but you have to crawl before you can walk before you can run.

He gave multiple examples of why you're wrong. Keeping to FFXII though, there is a good example where in the game there is an item that doubles the amount of XP earned. Does someone who misses the vendor with that item on it and spends 30 hours getting XP somehow become a better "running" than the person who finds it and finishes the game 15 hours quicker? No, exactly as he pointed out, killing 500 wolves for a quest or 90 minutes killing WoW orcs is simply grinding for time wasting's sake. It doesn't make you a better runner and it also isn't as entertaining as playing a different game, which is why he isn't going to be playing many RPGs in the future.

I think for the exact reasons he's pointed out we're going to see an evolution in MMORPGs shortly. Developers have learned the fundamentals of what makes MMORPGs good and will be able to apply those to new games that aren't huge timesinks and will appeal to the vastly larger non-hardcore market. Even WoW, one of the most successful MMORPGs, is played by well under 1% of the NA market, and much less than 10% of "gamers." Future MMOs could push 10x that number or more, and one part of doing it will be having only 5 wolves being required to be killed instead of 500.

[BRP]

This might be a stupid question, but has this guy made any worthwhile RPG games or is he basically a loud-mouth nobody hoping to grab some attention by saying such outrageous things?

[Plow]

I haven't read the article yet, I'll do that in a sec and maybe respond again if there's anything worth talking about.

But here's my take just on what's been said in this thread so far.

Basically, it comes down to a debate which was somewhat heated throughout the Vanguard beta-- do people want MMORPG's to be a "game" or a "world"?

The fact is, "worlds" aren't always fun. Life isn't always fun. Some(ok most) people play MMORPG to escape the "real world" and the problems involved in it. However, that doesn't neccesarily mean they don't want to face unfun times and problems in their mmorpg-- like it were a real world. Others feel that the entire point of a "game" is to have fun, and that a good mmorpg flat out should not have times when things are not fun.

It really comes down to personal preferance, I for example prefer to have as little time where I'm not having fun as possible, hence the fact that I've ended up playing mostly WoW. Others want it to be absolute hell when they make a mistake or are simply not good enough, so they choose to stick with (less extreme) FFXI or (much more extreme) EQ/D2/etc.

[Jeryhn]

Stuff.

Unfortunately, none of this matters because the author of the article summarized his own view on the subject:

So now, thinking about playing an RPG just makes me tired. I may play one again someday. All I need is a huge surplus of time oppressing me that I need to kill with extreme prejudice. And, until that happens, unless a game can be finished in under 10 to 12 hours, I'm not interested.

He just doesn't like RPGs and what they are. But he'll still make them, and not contribute towards trying to make them better, because then they won't be RPGs and he won't make money off of them because RPGers won't buy them. Strangely enough, some gamers get a sense of accomplishment out of the whole grind thing. You'd be surprised.

As an aside, I'm willing to bet the CEO of Nike probably doesn't wear Nike. Probably Armani, in fact.