Usukane Hizayoroi vs Byakko's Haidate

[Falaras]

In a TP gain sense which is better?
DEF:30 STR+5 DEX+5 Attack+10 Haste+3%
DEF:42 DEX+15 Haste+5%
I've bean hearing alot about for Mnk and Sam its better but not for Ninja, which doesn't make any sense to me.
DEX+10 Haste+2% vs Atk+10 STR+5 seems pretty simple to me. But I'd like everyones opinions, for all 3 jobs too. (Pups not a job)
Edit: I just noticed there is a thread formed for this, sorry.

[LD]

Whichever one you get first. Next! Secret: It depends. :o

[Falaras]

Of course shit is situational but say in a merit sense or mellee burn Kirin or something.

[Beckwin]

Trading 10 dex, 5 acc and 2% haste for 5 str and 12.5 attack.

At least for ninja, I see Haidate as the better TP piece. Hard to tell for WS though. Also, haidate win for tanking (duh).

Can't really say for the other jobs. For mnk tp set it definitely seems beneficial if you're using haste shoes and looks like a good WS piece as well (losing acc from Shura but 4.5 isn't too bad of a trade off for the atk).

[Ambir]

DEX, Haste and Acc help you gain TP faster, STR and Attack don't.

I still think the Usukane piece is pretty sweet though...

[Zilong]

From NIN point of view, I think haidate > usukane for TP

for WS though, Hizayoroi is the better piece.

The way I see it is that you use Dusk over O-kote on NIN, which means that 1% haste is at least worth 5 ATK if not more.

Taking that into account, the 2% extra haste on Haidate cancels out the hizayoroi's 10 ATK, making it a choice between 5 STR or 5 ACC (10 DEX)

When was the last time you use a flame ring over sniper?

For WS though...haste doesn't affect WS, so from WSC wise, hizayoroi is only behind by 5 ( 5+5 vs 15), but it also increases the FSTR value by at least one, and the ATK gives pretty decent PDIF boost.

[Rezzy]

From NIN point of view, I think haidate > usukane for TP

for WS though, Hizayoroi is the better piece.

Nuuu.

Haidate is the king for most, if not all melee who use multi hits.

Jin, Rampage, etc. You want as many criticals as possible. A few points of STR will not make the big difference. Sure stacking +50 STR will make bigger numbers but between 5 STR and 15 DEX, it's no contest. I don't even macro Shura Legs in on NIN for WS as I saw lacking results. Even on War I used AF2 legs for a while but went back to Haidate when I kept seeing less consistent numbers on parses.


Bottom line as it was for so long. If you can equip it but don't have it, get on your knees and start sucking until you get your Haidate.

[aurik]

From NIN point of view, I think haidate > usukane for TP

for WS though, Hizayoroi is the better piece.

The way I see it is that you use Dusk over O-kote on NIN, which means that 1% haste is at least worth 5 ATK if not more.

Taking that into account, the 2% extra haste on Haidate cancels out the hizayoroi's 10 ATK, making it a choice between 5 STR or 5 ACC (10 DEX)

When was the last time you use a flame ring over sniper?

For WS though...haste doesn't affect WS, so from WSC wise, hizayoroi is only behind by 5 ( 5+5 vs 15), but it also increases the FSTR value by at least one, and the ATK gives pretty decent PDIF boost.

A lot of ninjas use okote instead of dusk, or say that the only reason they use dusk is for lower timers and that damage-wise, okote is just as strong.

Personally I find very little difference between the two. I use haidate for timer reasons when I'm tanking.

[ringthree]

From NIN point of view, I think haidate > usukane for TP

for WS though, Hizayoroi is the better piece.

Nuuu.

Haidate is the king for most, if not all melee who use multi hits.

Jin, Rampage, etc. You want as many criticals as possible. A few points of STR will not make the big difference. Sure stacking +50 STR will make bigger numbers but between 5 STR and 15 DEX, it's no contest. I don't even macro Shura Legs in on NIN for WS as I saw lacking results. Even on War I used AF2 legs for a while but went back to Haidate when I kept seeing less consistent numbers on parses.


Bottom line as it was for so long. If you can equip it but don't have it, get on your knees and start sucking until you get your Haidate.

This is just not true, and I covered this last week in the Byakko's Haidate vs. Shura Haidate thread. It is very doubtful that without a DEX build specifically giving up other stats to get more DEX that it will effect your critical hits.

Byakko's Haidate wins over Shura Haidate because the secondary modifier on Byakko's is so large that it overwhelms the fSTR gain and secondary modifier improvement on the Shura Haidate. I have not tested this but +5 STR, +5 DEX and +10 Attack is a lot more than just +5 STR on Shura.

As DEX doesn't modify Rampage the difference between AF2 legs and Byakko's Haidate is +5 STR and 1% Double Attack vs. +7.5 Accuracy.

Just because someone found out that stacking DEX increases the rates of critical hits does not mean that adding 15 DEX is going to make you crit more, because it appears the DEX bonus to crits is tiered.

[Kirschy]

Imo it plays a lot into your style. For me, I find the Usukane pants are great for merit pt situations. I have 0 merits in Katana, and pretti much forced into a sushi build. The pants were a welcome change.

EDIT: I personally find the best results using Koga Tekko+1 Dusk->Dawn, and oKote during the few hours the STR isn't active.

[TB]

Usukane Legs look 10 times better. Clear choice. wut

[evilpaul]

Usukane looks tacky, orange lined swim trunks ftw.

[LD]

Orange-lined trunks are NOT tacky? ;[
Usukane are mostly black with a very subtle design, since when is black tacky? Tacky is usually defined as something flashy or ugly, and that's what Shura and Byakko's are, respectively. Out of Shura, Usukane, and Byakko's, Usukane is probably the most subdued and natural.

[evilbau]

Orange-lined trunks are NOT tacky? ;[
Usukane are mostly black with a very subtle design, since when is black tacky? Tacky is usually defined as something flashy or ugly, and that's what Shura and Byakko's are, respectively. Out of Shura, Usukane, and Byakko's, Usukane is probably the most subdued and natural.

they look like board shorts but to me that seems really natural... but then again I've lived in so. cali. on the beach my entire life.

[LD]

I don't like unnecessarily flashy or mis-matched colors. Usukane makes sense because it's made up of dark colors, so they marry well. Light Orange doesn't go with forest green. ;x Light Orange in general is just seems very gaudy to me.

Yes, I'm absolutely suggesting you have a poor sense of style.

[Kirschy]

I think they look sexy. And they make my ass look cute~

http://img260.imageshack.us/img260/8670/cuteasspo4.jpg

[Xrave]

In a TP gain sense which is better?

I think you meant "In a DoT sense which is better?"

Because there's no debate over which allows you to gain TP faster.

[Francisco II]

Usukane are mostly black

They're blue. Oh shi.....

[Wizerd]

In a TP gain sense which is better?

I think you meant "In a DoT sense which is better?"

Because there's no debate over which allows you to gain TP faster.

TP gain makes perfect sense. "TP gain sense" doesn't necessarily mean which helps you get TP faster, it means which does the most damage while gaining your TP, which is what most "TP gain" setups are about. The Usukane wins in that sense.

[algrensan]

I use haidate for timer reasons when I'm tanking.

i think i missed something here but what about wearing usukane hizayoroi and then using macros for gear swap/utsusemi and recast timers?