WS resistance question

[Nameless]

As we all know or speculate that there is an innate effect to some of the WSs that result them in doing more damage than they should. The most obvious one being Ground strike vs Spiral hell. While spiral hell has the same WSC and much higher ftp and even higher skill, it consistantly does less than Ground strike at 300% on high def mobs. Does anyone have an explanation on this?

Other examples are Blade Jin's high critical rate, sidewider's low accuracy, y/g/k is high damage despite the now low ftp they have. Just curious if anyone has any info on things like this. Maybe it works the same way as magic that sometimes your WS will get resisted?

Thank you.

[VZX]

I couldn't think it as resists. if a WS do exhibit a large discrepancy it's either the it has jitter in pDIF function (crit, and normal randomness) or your accuracy went up and down during that period.

Regarding Ground Strike vs Spiral Hell, the likely answer is Ground Strike has pDIF bonus like YGK. Those 3 WS have abnormally high attack rating so that it looked like they scored a crit. hit.

[Kirschy]

WS Modifiers, fTP and all that fun stuff were deduced when melee pdif capped at 3.0. We were able to "force" this cap by Sneak Attacking on a low lvl/def/VIT mob. Without sneak attack, melee hits and WS would be distributed between 1.6 and 2.4 pdif. A crit added 1.0 to the pdif, makin the range 2.6-3.4. Half of that range would be capped damage. With a few SA+WS it was easy to determine the cap, and then deduce WSC/fTP based on changes to the capped damage.

In answer to your question, the modifiers only tell about a WS's highest peak damage. It does not account for what kind of damage distribution occurs in the pdif range. While Spiral Hell might have the highest potential it's average damage maybe lower than a more consistant Ground Strike. I have some evidence to support this case, but with changes to the system and Catastrophe in particular, I never bothered to continue the research.

I might be able to search and find it... but about year and half ago, there were some tests on Yukki/Gekko/Kasha/(Kaiten) on steelshells at lower pdif values. Although YGK peak at the same numbers, there data suggested that they do not have uniform damage distribution.

EDIT: viewtopic.php?f=2&t=13577&st=0&sk=t&sd=a&start=330

There was some good information/speculation in the thread. It seems it was xxslusherxx who did some testing, and I think Ruke did too?

[Nameless]

http://ffxi.allakhazam.com/db/jobs.html ... =42;page=1

Please read the end of that thread. I always thought the new pdif cap for noncritical hit is 2.7, and critical is 3.2 or so. Is it true that you can go as high as 3.05 with noncritical?

[Kirschy]

Yea, there have been changes to the pdif caps. Your question involved the WSC which were tested and deduced through the old pdif system which is why I brought it up. I believe the same idea behind it still applies. Even if the pdif low/high and crit low/high have been changed, the pdif distribution of WS is a factor that most people disregard on WS. The WS mods and pdif only show you it's potiential maximum damage, but not the average damage returns which you'll see through eyeballing and looking at the WS avg on a parser.

[Ichthyos]

3.05 PDIF non-crit? really? I was trying to look up info on PDIF changes the other day and only came up with this result from late November:

AoishiZ on this thread[/url]]
Since I can't seem to find it anywhere on forums... I'll just post what Studio Gobli has found...

http://www32.atwiki.jp/studiogobli/

according to the page
2Handers are now at:
PDIF:1.9?2.7
Critical: 2.9?3.15

1Handers haven't changed at
PDIF: 1.6?2.4
Critical: 2.9?3.15

Tachi Yuki/Gekko/Kasha
Ftp Mods
100% = 25/16 (1.5625)
200% = 30/16 (1.875)
300% = 40/16 (2.50)

AoshiZ
Gilgamesh

[Nameless]

What do you mean exactly when you say distribution of pdif. May you describe it in a more mathmatical way? Thank you ^^

Isn't that your whole (D + fstr + (second modifier)x 0.83) x ftp going to time pdif in the end? So are you saying pdif applies to each areas differently?

From reading that link you gave. It seems that y/g/k each peak at the same high but when pdif changes, the damage will change ws by ws dispite the same fstr and pdif for all 3 ws. So there is an innate effect to each ws as speculated?

And as to the above post. That is what I thought too. I didn't know they change it to 3.05... ninja edit? cuz there was no patch between now and then.

[Ichthyos]

What do you mean exactly when you say distribution of pdif. May you describe it in a more mathmatical way? Thank you ^^

PDIF is a continuous random variable whose distribution's bounds depend on cRatio.

Isn't that your whole (D + fstr + (second modifier)x 0.83) x ftp going to time pdif in the end?

Yes, WS Base Damage is multiplied by PDIF.

So are you saying pdif applies to each areas differently?

No.

From reading that link you gave. It seems that y/g/k each peak at the same high but when pdif changes, the damage will change ws by ws dispite the same fstr and pdif for all 3 ws. So there is an innate effect to each ws as speculated?

Doubtful.

[Nameless]

From that link, if you read it. It shows that Gekko performs better when pdif is low, and K/Y performs better when pdif is high, then eventually at capped pdif they will all peak the same.

As for the distribution based on cratio, are you saying each ws will grant different cratio? Cuz we are comparing average damage from a ws when everything else is fixed and only ftp is different between the two ws, yet ground strike still average more than spiral hell. With same attack, same str, same tp, and pretty much same everything other than scythe has higher base damage and higher skill. So if anything, spiral hell should average more than ground strike on the exact same mob under the same condition, but it is not so. I will give you that spiral hell will peak higher, but why is it in average lower than ground strike on higher def mobs.

[VZX]

From that link, if you read it. It shows that Gekko performs better when pdif is low, and K/Y performs better when pdif is high, then eventually at capped pdif they will all peak the same.

As for the distribution based on cratio, are you saying each ws will grant different cratio? Cuz we are comparing average damage from a ws when everything else is fixed and only ftp is different between the two ws, yet ground strike still average more than spiral hell. With same attack, same str, same tp, and pretty much same everything other than scythe has higher base damage and higher skill. So if anything, spiral hell should average more than ground strike on the exact same mob under the same condition, but it is not so. I will give you that spiral hell will peak higher, but why is it in average lower than ground strike on higher def mobs.

That is, once again, some WS just have innately higher attack (yet, we don't see explicit description on the WS description), innately low accuracy (slugwinder), etc etc. Do each WS varies differently? I'm sure I won't be the one testing all available WS to prove that statement is true. But so far, only the aforementioned ones have unique pDIF properties

Some other example are Frenetic Rip (not a WS though) has higher innate attack than Disseverment from the same secondary mod and very close fTP (in fact, Disseverment's fTP is higher that FRip's), Vertical Cleave, and Uppercut

[Ichthyos]

From that link, if you read it. It shows that Gekko performs better when pdif is low, and K/Y performs better when pdif is high, then eventually at capped pdif they will all peak the same.

You're right. I hadn't clicked on that link. Like you, I am also interested to see an explanation.

As for the distribution based on cratio, are you saying each ws will grant different cratio?

I was just trying to make a basic statement that cRatio affects the distribution bounds of PDIF in general, not talking about any particular situation or WS.

About Spiral Hell and Ground Strike, we need more information / test data, but I'd surmise that VZX is right.