Fitna

[Lee]

Well, as you may have heard over the news, a film was planned on being released by a Dutch MP that was controversial in that it was dubbed 'an anti-koran film'. I thought it was interested and could serve for some discussion. It's only 15 mins. long too, so it's not such a time killer.

Note: Some of you may consider this a 'fear-mongering' film, or propaganda. But notice how there is no criticism of Islam AT ALL in this film, it's just real-life footage and real-life Muslims themselves giving Islam this image.

Fitna

edit: Here's an article on Geert Wilders, the MP who made it: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/7314636.stm

[archibaldcrane]

What is an MP?

edit: Oh, member of parliament. I'd go with "parlimentarian" personally, but that's just me.

Video site isn't playing well for me, but I already see images of planes flying into buildings intercut with pages turning in the Koran. Looks like inflammatory attention-whoring propaganda bullshit to me, which seems to be what this MP is known for anyway.

[Thevaultdweller]

It'd be just as easy for someone to throw together clips of abortion clinic bombings, speeches by Jerry Falwell, and Westboro Baptist protests and claim that we must stop the Christian religion.

[Elesirdur]

It'd be just as easy for someone to throw together clips of abortion clinic bombings, speeches by Jerry Falwell, and Westboro Baptist protests and claim that we must stop the Christian religion.

That works for me.

[Khelek]

It'd be just as easy for someone to throw together clips of abortion clinic bombings, speeches by Jerry Falwell, and Westboro Baptist protests and claim that we must stop the Christian religion.

That works for me.

How about we put em both in the same movie and add a bit of bad parts from other religeons? Maybe we can put an end to all religeon

[MisterBob]

It'd be just as easy for someone to throw together clips of abortion clinic bombings, speeches by Jerry Falwell, and Westboro Baptist protests and claim that we must stop the Christian religion.

That works for me.

How about we put em both in the same movie and add a bit of bad parts from other religeons? Maybe we can put an end to all religeon

"Religeon" sounds like a pokemon

[Woozie]

Why is it that when a topic about race or something comes up, half the people argue in favor of keeping an open mind, but then when the subject is religion it's suddenly okay to prejudicly bash it? Keeping an open mind is no longer okay because someone thinks differently than you do? How's that any better than racism?

[archibaldcrane]

Um, the first two replies were "this is propaganda bullshit" and "you could do this with any religion, not just Islam".

It's not exactly a case of "wow, this guy is right, Islam is a religion of intolerant violence and death!" piling on.

[Neosutra]

Why is it that when a topic about race or something comes up, half the people argue in favor of keeping an open mind, but then when the subject is religion it's suddenly okay to prejudicly bash it? Keeping an open mind is no longer okay because someone thinks differently than you do? How's that any better than racism?

If people used race as a justification to kill, further violence, opress people, and hamper the spread of scienctific knowlege then I think they would be the same discussion.

[Woozie]

Why is it that when a topic about race or something comes up, half the people argue in favor of keeping an open mind, but then when the subject is religion it's suddenly okay to prejudicly bash it? Keeping an open mind is no longer okay because someone thinks differently than you do? How's that any better than racism?

If people used race as a justification to kill, further violence, opress people, and hamper the spread of scienctific knowlege then I think they would be the same discussion.

So you're saying that just because a small minority of certain religions use their religions for unfortunate purposes means it's okay to bash all religion altogether? I don't see how that's different from people who prejudge black people based on the fact that some black people are killers, or people who are racist against all middle-eastern people just because a small section of them engaged in terrorist activities.

[Correction]

Keeping an open mind is no longer okay because someone thinks differently than you do? How's that any better than racism?

Race is something you can't change about yourself. Religion is a submission of your will to faith, and something that people choose to be a part of their whole lives. So no, it's not the same as racism. Most of the people who can't stand religion probably had some measure of religious upbringing. I spent two years being raised by nuns so when I say Catholics are full of shit I'm speaking from experience. That's far from prejudicial bashing.

But really, welcome to the internet, where we often leave off adjectives like 'radical' and 'extremist' when discussing how fucking retarded religion is whenever it makes headlines like this.

[Woozie]

Keeping an open mind is no longer okay because someone thinks differently than you do? How's that any better than racism?

Race is something you can't change about yourself. Religion is a submission of your will to faith, and something that people choose to be a part of their whole lives. So no, it's not the same as racism. Most of the people who can't stand religion probably had some measure of religious upbringing. I spent two years being raised by nuns so when I say Catholics are full of shit I'm speaking from experience. That's far from prejudicial bashing.

But really, welcome to the internet, where we often leave off adjectives like 'radical' and 'extremist' when discussing how fucking retarded religion is whenever it makes headlines like this.

I honestly don't mind the bashing of the radical or extremist of any religion. But when I read these forums, I usually get the (mistaken?) impression that people who bash religion are bashing religion in general, and are referring to all religious people, not just the people who bomb others because they think it's the religious thing to do.

[archibaldcrane]

Generally, they are bashing all religion. They feel that religious people are stupid, or at best misguided, and cause more problems than they solve.

It's not just violence, it's encouraging teaching of Intelligent Design over evolution in classrooms, it's abstinence only education, and various other crap that non-extremist religious people perpetrate in secular countries.

[Maguspk]

They do, it's the general attitude of the majority of the people who are active on these forums. I think if they tried to argue they only meant extremists it'd be easy to call them out on it too because you see posts along the lines of "lol believing in god means you're stupid". It'd be nice if there was more tolerance for religion in general but like most other things if any part of it is bad people will assume nothing from it can be good.

It's not just violence, it's encouraging teaching of Intelligent Design over evolution in classrooms, it's abstinence only education, and various other crap that non-extremist religious people perpetrate in secular countries.

Exactly, but that is some group or person's interpretation of what they believe to be right based on whatever guidelines they choose to follow sometimes based on religion to various extents. It isn't the faith itself it's the jackasses doing stupid shit behind it. In those cases it's more appropriate to say someone is horseshit stupid/ignorant as opposed to simply saying "lol stupid christians".

Woozie is correct in analogizing it with racism to an extent because a certain degree of stereotyping is going on.

edit: Archibaldcrane I agree with your post 100% though, so don't take it as a disagreement I was merely expanding on your 2nd paragraph.

[aurik]

http://ca.youtube.com/watch?v=MeSSwKffj9o

[Neosutra]

Woozie:

I think it got lost in all the arguing in the last big religious post on this forum, but one of my main problems with religion was that at its very core it underminded the best parts of human nature and psychology (i.e. it gave answers to physical phenomina that we either could prove scientifically was incorrect, or were still looking for the solution, and it did so w/o applying evidence or the scientific method, thereby hampering humanities greatest assest of curiosity and determination to understand the unknown).

That combined with a general will to resist scientific research/change/explainations, leaves a bitter taste in the mouth of anyone attempting to justify these dogma. In the case of extremist, mass murdering and letting children die are easy ways to demonize religion, but I dare say that the oppression of knowledge hurts our species worse in the long run, and thus I extend the anti-religion comments from the few extremist to general religion itself.

[Woozie]

Woozie:

I think it got lost in all the arguing in the last big religious post on this forum, but one of my main problems with religion was that at its very core it underminded the best parts of human nature and psychology (i.e. it gave answers to physical phenomina that we either could prove scientifically was incorrect, or were still looking for the solution, and it did so w/o applying evidence or the scientific method, thereby hampering humanities greatest assest of curiosity and determination to understand the unknown).

That combined with a general will to resist scientific research/change/explainations, leaves a bitter taste in the mouth of anyone attempting to justify these dogma. In the case of extremist, mass murdering and letting children die are easy ways to demonize religion, but I dare say that the oppression of knowledge hurts our species worse in the long run, and thus I extend the anti-religion comments from the few extremist to general religion itself.

In general, the church doesn't do anything to hinder scientific progress anymore (they don't have the power to like they used to. No one's going to get hung for saying the planets travel in elipses instead of circles anymore.). Sure, some of the churches are extremely vocal against certain scientific areas, but they have hardly any effect anymore and don't pose much of a threat. With all the court cases against evolution in schools, it's still pretty freakin rare to find a high school graduate who hasn't been taught evolution. The vast majority of Christians (or other religions) have no problem with science iin general anyways.

As for the mass murders/etc, that only applies to extremist. The vast majority of religous people will never ever detonate a bomb. The problem doesn't lie in religion, it lies with a few specific people.

[Beckwin]

It's not akin to racism if you aren't calling for the poor treatment or w/e of religious people. But a religion is an idea, so it's pretty free-game for criticism and opinion. Also that idea is a choice, so on that ground as well it's not like race.

[Myst]

fuck anyone that tries to tell me what to believe.

[Gafgarionn]

Why is it that when a topic about race or something comes up, half the people argue in favor of keeping an open mind, but then when the subject is religion it's suddenly okay to prejudicly bash it? Keeping an open mind is no longer okay because someone thinks differently than you do? How's that any better than racism?

If people used race as a justification to kill, further violence, opress people, and hamper the spread of scienctific knowlege then I think they would be the same discussion.

Are you fucking kidding me?